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The Push For George Karl [Merged]

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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#221 » by OrlChamps2030 » Sun Feb 8, 2015 10:11 pm

Skin wrote:
MellowRose wrote:
Skin wrote:I like the honesty, but as a HC you gotta be really careful about ripping your team in public. Behind closed doors, great. But like this... eh, you kinda see why he lost his team. I like Malone, but this isn't the right approach for a young team like ours that has a lot of growing pains ahead as they continue their development.


So much misinformation regarding Malone on this board. "Lost his team"? When the hell did that happen?

This isn't the right approach? Well, we already have tried the happy-go-lucky approach. You don't want to try the tough love approach?Finding a medium between the two is very rarely ever found.

Coaches I believe have the same demeanor as Malone: Pop, Thibs, Carlise. Do you disagree?

There's no doubt in my mind that he lost the respect of some of his players. I'm not saying it was a universal feeling where he lost the entire team. But I don't think he was fired just because of a rift with management. I like him though. His demeanor is fine. I love a coach that can rip his players behind closed doors or in practice. But disrespecting your players to the media after a game, saying they are embarrassing...

Malone said, "I guess we gotta get better players". Those kinds of comments have repercussions in the locker room.

C'mon man. I haven't seen anything saying he lost his team. Infact I thought he was pretty well liked. But I could definitely be wrong if there is evidence out there that says otherwise. I know you'll disagree with me because you were riding pretty hard for Jacque up until a week or two ago but he had a soft demeanor and he lost his players. Ultimately, I think your coaching ability earns/loses player's respect more than your attitude.

But I will say, a hard ass coach can wear down on his players after a few seasons. I don't think that was the case with Malone though
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Post#222 » by Driguez » Sun Feb 8, 2015 10:48 pm

At this site point, I'm not going to sweat it. Let the GM GM.
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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#223 » by ChiefWiggumz » Mon Feb 9, 2015 5:19 pm

I think Malone would be a great fit. I think Karl is a great choice, but for a short-term stint.

Obviously we will see who is available in the summer, if Thibs is let go, and/or anyone else. But all in all, I think Malone would be a great coach.

I think our team would respond well to his style of coaching.

We have a tough, thoughtful, high IQ core of players that would take criticisms in stride.

I think we have many pieces in place to be a force in the east for the foreseeable future. I think this summer is crucial as far as finding a head coach and filling those roster gaps goes.
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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#224 » by Nyce_1 » Mon Feb 9, 2015 5:53 pm

What about Karl and continue to groom Borrego? Organic, right?
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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#225 » by MellowRose » Mon Feb 9, 2015 6:11 pm

I'm fine with leaving JB in until the off season, and even longer if the team continues to play well.
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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#226 » by ChosenSavior » Mon Feb 9, 2015 10:56 pm

I had a feeling Karl was not going to come here. We'll be alright though. JB has me intrigued actually so I would like to see what he is capable of for the remainder of the season.
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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#227 » by T-DOT KEEZY » Mon Feb 9, 2015 11:48 pm

Karl simply used the Magic on twitter to lock up a deal with Sacramento. It was a very nice Olivia Pope kinda move for him.
Get off the couch and back in the game by playing up interest in a team that doesn't even want you.... to get the job you want. The Sacramento job. Karl is a west coast guy through and through
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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#228 » by MoMM » Mon Feb 9, 2015 11:50 pm

Nyce_1 wrote:What about Karl and continue to groom Borrego? Organic, right?

That's a good idea, but i don't think Karl will come.
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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#229 » by OrlandoDream » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:19 am

At this point, there is no need to go all out for Karl. We want our next guy to be someone that fits in with out young core and someone who can instill some damn discipline and work ethic in these guys. Come offseason, there are going to be better coaches available. I have a feeling that if CHI doesnt get past the semis this year, Thibs is out. If that happens, we better dump everything to get Thib as a coach of this team. You want someone who makes his guys play hard and give their all every night? Aside from Pop, Thibs is your man.
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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#230 » by majortom71 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:40 am

Wait for Thibs to be relieved from Chicago and pursue him like crazy. I would definitely wait out for Thibs. It's weird but certain Chicago fans on these boards don't like him. Talk about spoiled fans...smdh
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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#231 » by Reverse_Angle » Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:31 pm

All right, thanks to this threat and people's opinions, I am officially riding George Karl bandwagon.
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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#232 » by JBSouthpaw » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:28 pm

majortom71 wrote:Wait for Thibs to be relieved from Chicago and pursue him like crazy. I would definitely wait out for Thibs. It's weird but certain Chicago fans on these boards don't like him. Talk about spoiled fans...smdh


I'm not a huge fan of his, even though I consider him a very good coach.

The high minutes he has put on his starters during the regular season always bugged me. Of course, I thought JV would do that too on the front end of some of the B2Bs.
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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#233 » by ChiefWiggumz » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:05 pm

So, with Karl seemingly ending up in Sac.

Let's toss around some realistic options.

Thibs is a great coach but not an ideal candidate for our team right now, in my opinion.

We are essentially an entire NBA roster of players in need of development. Thibs is not too rookie friendly.
McDermott for example - would immediately register playing time on our team and give us a tremendous boost of bench scoring. In Chicago, albeit they have a pretty stacked F rotation, he is rarely seen.

Borrego - I feel like would be a pretty good coach for this squad. Like Vaughn, he learned under Pop. And like Vaughn, he is getting paid to barely weather the storm right now. I do not think JV was as dumb as it seemed throughout his stint. I'm sure there was a basic arrangement between him and the front office to basically develop players, but to manipulate rotations to lose games. It sucks but under NBA rules and systems, and financial structures, you have higher odds at rebuilding a team if you lose.

So just like Vaughn was a statement fire (in my opinion, he did what was expected of him, but when fans get too pissed you have to make an action), there will be a statement hire.

There are some good assistants out there, Alvin Gentry would be a pretty good candidate. Great offensive mind.

Three names tossed around frequently are, Scott Skiles, Mike Malone, and Mark Jackson.

I think the Magic are interested in Skiles the most, just because of pre-existing ties to the organization. By all fairness, he has a pretty decent track record and I would not mind him as a coach.

Malone is similar to Skiles to me, in their demeanor and the way they coach. I actually prefer Malone, just based on his personality.

Jackson, ****. He might not be a bad coach but I hate everything he stands for. All of his theologies, philosophies, and thoughts on society - just a very stubborn and ignorant man.
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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#234 » by majortom71 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:18 pm

JBSouthpaw wrote:
majortom71 wrote:Wait for Thibs to be relieved from Chicago and pursue him like crazy. I would definitely wait out for Thibs. It's weird but certain Chicago fans on these boards don't like him. Talk about spoiled fans...smdh


I'm not a huge fan of his, even though I consider him a very good coach.

The high minutes he has put on his starters during the regular season always bugged me. Of course, I thought JV would do that too on the front end of some of the B2Bs.


A lot of fans equate high minutes to injuries. Injuries are bound to happen to most teams, in fact even the amount of injuries the Bulls had is not uncommon for other teams to have. His high minutes issue got inflated into something it's not.
Rose's style of play causes wear and tear and it's a high chance of him being injured. That was the main issue with him.
Also if you have a good conditioning crew, the players should be able to take the physical demand.

In the end I consider him a top 3 coach and would be ecstatic if he ran this team.
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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#235 » by JBSouthpaw » Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:10 pm

majortom71 wrote:
JBSouthpaw wrote:
majortom71 wrote:Wait for Thibs to be relieved from Chicago and pursue him like crazy. I would definitely wait out for Thibs. It's weird but certain Chicago fans on these boards don't like him. Talk about spoiled fans...smdh


I'm not a huge fan of his, even though I consider him a very good coach.

The high minutes he has put on his starters during the regular season always bugged me. Of course, I thought JV would do that too on the front end of some of the B2Bs.


A lot of fans equate high minutes to injuries. Injuries are bound to happen to most teams, in fact even the amount of injuries the Bulls had is not uncommon for other teams to have. His high minutes issue got inflated into something it's not.
Rose's style of play causes wear and tear and it's a high chance of him being injured. That was the main issue with him.
Also if you have a good conditioning crew, the players should be able to take the physical demand.

In the end I consider him a top 3 coach and would be ecstatic if he ran this team.


I'd like to see some facts backing your opinions.
To take one point of yours "Rose's style of play causes wear and tear" If you do that "style of Play" over more minutes, it increases the chance by simple mathematics. Same with Noah, plays hard for too long.
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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#236 » by majortom71 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:31 pm

JBSouthpaw wrote:
majortom71 wrote:
JBSouthpaw wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of his, even though I consider him a very good coach.

The high minutes he has put on his starters during the regular season always bugged me. Of course, I thought JV would do that too on the front end of some of the B2Bs.


A lot of fans equate high minutes to injuries. Injuries are bound to happen to most teams, in fact even the amount of injuries the Bulls had is not uncommon for other teams to have. His high minutes issue got inflated into something it's not.
Rose's style of play causes wear and tear and it's a high chance of him being injured. That was the main issue with him.
Also if you have a good conditioning crew, the players should be able to take the physical demand.

In the end I consider him a top 3 coach and would be ecstatic if he ran this team.


I'd like to see some facts backing your opinions.
To take one point of yours "Rose's style of play causes wear and tear" If you do that "style of Play" over more minutes, it increases the chance by simple mathematics. Same with Noah, plays hard for too long.


Fine I'll play that game.

Thibs joined the Bulls in 2010.

Here is D. Rose's stats while with the Bulls.

Year Team GP GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG
2008–09 Chicago 81 80 37.0 .475 .222 .788 3.9 6.3 .8 .2 16.8
2009–10 Chicago 78 78 36.8 .489 .267 .766 3.8 6.0 .7 .3 20.8
2010–11 Chicago 81 81 37.4 .445 .332 .858 4.1 7.7 1.0 .6 25.0
2011–12 Chicago 39 39 35.3 .435 .312 .812 3.4 7.9 .9 .7 21.8
2013–14 Chicago 10 10 31.1 .354 .340 .844 3.2 4.3 .5 .1 15.9

If you notice the 2 years prior to Thibs, Rose averaged around 37mpg, first year with Thibs 37.4mpg and after that lower and lower.
It does not show that significant increase of minutes now does it?

Here is J. Noah stats with the Bulls.

Year Team GP GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG
2007–08 Chicago 74 31 20.7 .482 .000 .691 5.6 1.1 .9 .9 6.6
2008–09 Chicago 80 55 24.2 .556 .000 .676 7.6 1.3 .6 1.4 6.7
2009–10 Chicago 64 54 30.1 .504 .000 .744 11.0 2.1 .5 1.6 10.7
2010–11 Chicago 48 48 32.8 .525 .000 .764 10.4 2.2 1.0 1.5 11.7
2011–12 Chicago 64 64 30.4 .508 .000 .748 9.8 2.5 .6 1.4 10.2
2012–13 Chicago 66 64 36.8 .481 .000 .751 11.1 4.0 1.2 2.1 11.9
2013–14 Chicago 80 80 35.3 .475 .000 .737 11.3 5.4 1.2 1.5 12.6

The highest mpg he's played is still under 37mpg.

Here is Jimmy B. stats:


Year Team GP GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG
2011–12 Chicago 42 0 8.5 .405 .182 .768 1.3 .3 .3 .1 2.6
2012–13 Chicago 82 20 26.0 .467 .381 .803 4.0 1.4 1.0 .4 8.6
2013–14 Chicago 67 67 38.7 .397 .283 .769 4.9 2.6 1.9 .5 13.1
2014–15 Chicago 51 51 39.7 .487 .345 .829 6.0 3.2 1.8 .6 20.6

Captain we've got a problem! Ok here is a case where minutes start going up to near 40mpg.

Wait a minute, you say there are players with a higher mpg?
Yes ma boy there are!

Here is Michael Jordan stats with Chicago:

Year Team GP GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG
1984–85 Chicago 82 82 38.3 .515 .173 .845 6.5 5.9 2.4 .8 28.2
1985–86 Chicago 18 7 25.1 .457 .167 .840 3.6 2.9 2.1 1.2 22.7
1986–87 Chicago 82 82 40.0 .482 .182 .857 5.2 4.6 2.9 1.5 37.1
1987–88 Chicago 82 82 40.4 .535 .132 .841 5.5 5.9 3.2 1.6 35.0
1988–89 Chicago 81 81 40.2 .538 .276 .850 8.0 8.0 2.9 .8 32.5
1989–90 Chicago 82 82 39.0 .526 .376 .848 6.9 6.3 2.8 .7 33.6
1990–91† Chicago 82 82 37.0 .539 .312 .851 6.0 5.5 2.7 1.0 31.5
1991–92† Chicago 80 80 38.8 .519 .270 .832 6.4 6.1 2.3 .9 30.1
1992–93† Chicago 78 78 39.3 .495 .352 .837 6.7 5.5 2.8 .8 32.6
1994–95 Chicago 17 17 39.3 .411 .500 .801 6.9 5.3 1.8 .8 26.9
1995–96† Chicago 82 82 37.7 .495 .427 .834 6.6 4.3 2.2 .5 30.4
1996–97† Chicago 82 82 37.9 .486 .374 .833 5.9 4.3 1.7 .5 29.6
1997–98† Chicago 82 82 38.8 .465 .238 .784 5.8 3.5 1.7 .5 28.7

You can see here Jordan was averaging higher minutes than any of the players I posted all under P. Jax.


Here is Hakeem Olajuwon stats:


Season Age Team GP GS MIN FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF REB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
1984–85 22 Houston 82 82 35.5 .538 – .613 5.4 6.5 11.9 1.4 1.2 2.7 2.9 4.2 20.6
1985–86 23 Houston 68 68 36.3 .526 – .645 4.9 6.6 11.5 2.0 2.0 3.4 2.9 4.0 23.5
1986–87 24 Houston 75 75 36.8 .508 .200 .702 4.2 7.2 11.4 2.9 1.9 3.4 3.0 3.9 23.4
1987–88 25 Houston 79 79 35.8 .514 .000 .695 3.8 8.3 12.1 2.1 2.1 2.7 3.1 4.1 22.8
1988–89 26 Houston 82 82 36.9 .508 .000 .696 4.1 9.4 13.5 1.8 2.6 3.4 3.4 4.0 24.8
1989–90 27 Houston 82 82 38.1 .501 .167 .713 3.6 10.4 14.0 2.9 2.1 4.6 3.9 3.8 24.3
1990–91 28 Houston 56 50 36.8 .508 .000 .769 3.9 9.8 13.8 2.3 2.2 3.9 3.1 3.9 21.2
1991–92 29 Houston 70 69 37.7 .502 .000 .766 3.5 8.6 12.1 2.2 1.8 4.3 2.7 3.8 21.6
1992–93 30 Houston 82 82 39.5 .529 .000 .779 3.5 9.6 13.0 3.5 1.8 4.2 3.2 3.7 26.1
1993–94† 31 Houston 80 80 41.0 .528 .421 .716 2.9 9.1 11.9 3.6 1.6 3.7 3.4 3.6 27.3
1994–95† 32 Houston 72 72 39.6 .517 .188 .756 2.4 8.4 10.8 3.5 1.8 3.4 3.3 3.5 27.8
1995–96 33 Houston 72 72 38.8 .514 .214 .724 2.4 8.4 10.9 3.6 1.6 2.9 3.4 3.4 26.9
1996–97 34 Houston 78 78 36.6 .510 .313 .787 2.2 7.0 9.2 3.0 1.5 2.2 3.6 3.2 23.2
1997–98 35 Houston 47 45 34.7 .483 .000 .755 2.5 7.3 9.8 3.0 1.8 2.0 2.7 3.2 16.4
1998–99 36 Houston 50 50 35.7 .514 .308 .717 2.1 7.4 9.6 1.8 1.6 2.5 2.8 3.2 18.9
1999–2000 37 Houston 44 28 23.8 .458 .000 .616 1.5 4.8 6.2 1.4 0.9 1.6 1.7 2.0 10.3
2000–01 38 Houston 58 55 26.6 .498 .000 .621 2.1 5.3 7.4 1.2 1.2 1.5 1.4 2.4 11.9

Olajuwon at his prime was averaging over 40mpg!!!


Here is Scottie Pippen stats:


Year Team GP GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG
1987–88 Chicago 79 0 20.9 .463 .174 .576 3.8 2.1 1.2 0.7 7.9
1988–89 Chicago 73 56 33.1 .476 .273 .668 6.1 3.5 1.9 0.8 14.4
1989–90 Chicago 82 82 38.4 .489 .250 .675 6.7 5.4 2.6 1.2 16.5
1990–91† Chicago 82 82 36.8 .520 .309 .706 7.3 6.2 2.4 1.1 17.8
1991–92† Chicago 82 82 38.6 .506 .200 .760 7.7 7.0 1.9 1.1 21.0
1992–93† Chicago 81 81 38.6 .473 .237 .663 7.7 6.3 2.1 0.9 18.6
1993–94 Chicago 72 72 38.3 .491 .320 .660 8.7 5.6 2.9 0.8 22.0
1994–95 Chicago 79 79 38.2 .480 .345 .716 8.1 5.2 2.9 1.1 21.4
1995–96† Chicago 77 77 36.7 .463 .374 .679 6.4 5.9 1.7 0.7 19.4
1996–97† Chicago 82 82 37.7 .474 .368 .701 6.5 5.7 1.9 0.6 20.2
1997–98† Chicago 44 44 37.5 .447 .318 .777 5.2 5.8 1.8 1.0 19.1

Again it's normal to avg around 38mpg for players like this.


The fact of the matter is that with the exception of Butler's 1 season most of Thibs big name players average far less than the HOF players we idolize.
Why? There may be many reasons but you can't say the high minutes are doing it. If it was the case the HOF players I listed would have major injuries like Rose, but they never did! Of course Pippen, Jordan and even Hakeem may have gotten injured but nothing like Rose.
Rose has had terrible luck with injuries and I feel for him, but I would not put it on Thibs.

You have to have good strength/conditioning as an athlete to last the season.

This is why I tend to dismiss the issue with Thibs and his minutes.

Edit: I tried to format the player stats tables but it did not work :noway: the minutes are the 5th column in tables.
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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#237 » by JBSouthpaw » Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:49 pm

Ok, not quoting your whole post.
Of course D. Rose's minutes went down, he got hurt.
The old players info was also Pre- Olympics (for the most part) & world Champs. Players are more fatigued coming into the season. Coaches need to adjust.

The randomness of picking some players doesn't institute FACT. Just like what I was saying, only my opinion.
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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#238 » by majortom71 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:33 am

JBSouthpaw wrote:Ok, not quoting your whole post.
Of course D. Rose's minutes went down, he got hurt.
The old players info was also Pre- Olympics (for the most part) & world Champs. Players are more fatigued coming into the season. Coaches need to adjust.

The randomness of picking some players doesn't institute FACT. Just like what I was saying, only my opinion.

Ty for not quoting my whole post.

I am not sure what you mean pre-olympics? I do remember Jordan and Pippen being on the Dream Team, please clarify what you meant.
The stats I posted are from 3 HOFs playing for their main team including years where they won multiple chips.

What do you mean a player is more fatigued coming into the season? What would cause this fatigue? or did you mean not conditioned/out of shape?

I posted numbers to show that large minutes can be played by players who for the most part did not have injury riddled carriers a la Rose. In fact all 3 played most of the games the seasons they won championships playing equivalent or more minutes than Rose has ever played.

So how does what I posted not institute facts?
You asked for the FACTs I gave it, but you conclude with "only my opinion"?
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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#239 » by Scottg247 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:26 am

Players not are not as hard and tough as they were in the 80's and 90's in my opinion. Softness is the problem. Coaches don't work players and condition them as hard possibly?
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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#240 » by Scottg247 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:27 am

majortom71 wrote:
JBSouthpaw wrote:Ok, not quoting your whole post.
Of course D. Rose's minutes went down, he got hurt.
The old players info was also Pre- Olympics (for the most part) & world Champs. Players are more fatigued coming into the season. Coaches need to adjust.

The randomness of picking some players doesn't institute FACT. Just like what I was saying, only my opinion.

Ty for not quoting my whole post.

I am not sure what you mean pre-olympics? I do remember Jordan and Pippen being on the Dream Team, please clarify what you meant.
The stats I posted are from 3 HOFs playing for their main team including years where they won multiple chips.

What do you mean a player is more fatigued coming into the season? What would cause this fatigue? or did you mean not conditioned/out of shape?

I posted numbers to show that large minutes can be played by players who for the most part did not have injury riddled carriers a la Rose. In fact all 3 played most of the games the seasons they won championships playing equivalent or more minutes than Rose has ever played.

So how does what I posted not institute facts?
You asked for the FACTs I gave it, but you conclude with "only my opinion"?


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