Khris Middelton....Tobias Harris replacment?

[KillMonger]

Its hilarious reading these comments.

First of, pinning your hopes on a 19 year old who cant even shoot consistently to be a good replacement for Tobias?

Right now, Middleton is a glorified Trevor Ariza. I'd take Tobias Harris any day for him. You need shot creators in order to be successful.

And the Thaddeus Young comparison? Ehhh...

If the price is right Tobias should be retained, that being said Tobias isn't much of a shot creator either

[Bensational]

Also, gordon should be better than tobias? Based on what? That he was the 4th pick and is 19? Neither of those things are basketball related. In fact, I bet that if you look at every single team in the league and break down where each of their players was drafted, you'd find that at least half the teams best players were drafted lower than their other top 3 guys.

Lack in intelligence... Gtfo

it's not like 19 year old Harris was clear cut better than our 19 year old Gordon. Look at their comps.

Both getting low minutes, but their per game and per36 numbers are very comparable. Gordon has a much better fg%, much better 3fg%, but shockingly bad ft%. everything else is a wash, except Gordon's defense is far superior and that's undeniable.

Harris has that scoring instinct, but despite that he's still just a pull up/post up scorer. he's not been given the chance to be a guy who creates from the perimeter, for whatever reason. i think Gordon can develop that same knack for scoring, and he's already showing he's a guy who picks smart shots, but ultimately his handles and passing will see him get more opportunity to create from the perimeter. and we already see then when he's on the court. Payton and Dipo kick it back out to him frequently when he's in, but Harris... not so much. i can't help but feel that is by design.

i'm not sure why you think Gordon couldn't become better than Tobias? what is that based on?

[Bensational]

Its hilarious reading these comments.

First of, pinning your hopes on a 19 year old who cant even shoot consistently to be a good replacement for Tobias?

Right now, Middleton is a glorified Trevor Ariza. I'd take Tobias Harris any day for him. You need shot creators in order to be successful.

And the Thaddeus Young comparison? Ehhh...

he shoots better than a 19 year old Tobias did, and we've seen how Tobias has improved each season since then.

[tiderulz]

Its hilarious reading these comments.

First of, pinning your hopes on a 19 year old who cant even shoot consistently to be a good replacement for Tobias?

Right now, Middleton is a glorified Trevor Ariza. I'd take Tobias Harris any day for him. You need shot creators in order to be successful.

And the Thaddeus Young comparison? Ehhh...

i agree you need shot creators. That said, Harris isnt a shot creator.

[fendilim]

Is Middleton a shot creator? Lol

[Bensational]

Is Middleton a shot creator? Lol

nah, but i think that's what people like about him. he knows his role. he's a highly efficient, high volume 3 point shooter with great defense.

Harris might be a shot creator, if a team gave him a legit chance to develop that side of his game in games. for some reason, we don't seem to want to give him a chance. we just want him to stand where he needs to stand, cut when we need him to cut, and once in a while we'll let him post up. i'm not sure why we're not trying to see how much more we can get out of him, since we took the time and effort to get Dipo playing PG just to see if he could/to help develop his handles and playmaking.

[MagicStarwipe]

Because Tobias can only break down slower footed PF's off the dribble. His handles are not strong.

[fendilim]

Is Middleton a shot creator? Lol

nah, but i think that's what people like about him. he knows his role. he's a highly efficient, high volume 3 point shooter with great defense.

Harris might be a shot creator, if a team gave him a legit chance to develop that side of his game in games. for some reason, we don't seem to want to give him a chance. we just want him to stand where he needs to stand, cut when we need him to cut, and once in a while we'll let him post up. i'm not sure why we're not trying to see how much more we can get out of him, since we took the time and effort to get Dipo playing PG just to see if he could/to help develop his handles and playmaking.

Exactly this, for the same price range, would u pay a spot up scorer or someone who can create??

Like i said, i spot up shooter will struggle to create for his own. But someone who can create can be a spot up shooter

[ralphie9898]

Its hilarious reading these comments.

First of, pinning your hopes on a 19 year old who cant even shoot consistently to be a good replacement for Tobias?

Right now, Middleton is a glorified Trevor Ariza. I'd take Tobias Harris any day for him. You need shot creators in order to be successful.

And the Thaddeus Young comparison? Ehhh...

yeah and the same could be said of your opinion on the matter. You are overrating Harris and under-rating Middleton. Middleton is not Ariza or just a flash in the pan. It just appears that way from someone who hasn't been paying attention. Middleton has been getting better each year and it wasn't like he had a bad start. It was very encouraging and he has progressed into a very good player and is very under-rated. He can shoot and score just as well as Harris and the stats prove that. He would have a higher average if he played for the Magic just as Harris gets a higher ppg. But with Middleton being a part of a much better team his scoring is lower because he has other players that are just as good and demand the ball as well. Middleton can create his shot. It almost seems as if you think that Harris is the only one on this team that can create. That isn't true as Payton has shown a very good propensity for creating shooting and scoring options for himself and others. Same goes for Oladipo. Even Vuc is a good post passer who can create shots when the opportunity isn't there for him.

The problem is that this team doesn't have much in the way of quality shooters. Yeah Payton isn't a good shooter but that is not the same thing as creating the opportunity. Those are separate things and while related are not the same thing. But Harris isn't that great of a shooter either. He is good from mid-range and closer but he isn't that good from range. He is basically 1-3 from 3 point range shooter which is average. Plus Harris isn't that good defensively so even if your inflated opinion of Harris on offense were true with Middleton being just as good offensively and much better defensively simple logic dictates that Middleton is the better player. It isn't by leaps and bounds but what Middleton brings is waht this team needs more of. We are lacking in 3 point shooting especially those who can also play D and that is what Middleton brings. he gives our offense more spacing and that would help are offense greatly as Payton is best driving and either taking the shot himself or kicking and creating more open shots for his teamates. We need guys who can make them at a much better rate. Oladipo's greatest asset is driving as well but he has a better shot than Payton so he doesn't always have to drive but still he isn't that good of shooter so having Middleton would help him too. It also helps Vuc out as well as it takes congestion away from the middle as you have to respect Middletons range thus the defender can't just float closer to the rim.

[tiderulz]

Is Middleton a shot creator? Lol

so neither are shot creators, but one does provide very good defense.

[407Junkie]

A "shot creator" sounds like a damn ball hog to me and if that's the case then sure keep Harris all day. He damn sure doesn't create shots for his teammates and the stats prove that since he's been in the league. What do people think they see that it would be a good idea to come down court and give Harris the ball every time and tell him to be a playmaker? Half those attempts would be charges.

[tiderulz]

A "shot creator" sounds like a damn ball hog to me and if that's the case then sure keep Harris all day. He damn sure doesn't create shots for his teammates and the stats prove that since he's been in the league. What do people think they see that it would be a good idea to come down court and give Harris the ball every time and tell him to be a playmaker? Half those attempts would be charges.

you dont always need a shot creator that gets shots for teammates. Sometimes you need that guy who gets a decent shot no matter who is on him. MJ didnt create for others, he created for himself. Same with Derrick Rose, Tony Parker, Westbrook. We need someone that in a crunch time, we can give the ball and is getting a good shot.

Im a Harris fan and even i dont believe he can do that now. Can he develop it? maybe, but he would need to tighten his handles up a lot. Dipo has a better chance of being this type of player than Harris right now. Elf is someone that can create a shot for other players, he just needs to work on his game more (which i expect) so that he can also create and have confidence in his own shot.

[fendilim]

A "shot creator" sounds like a damn ball hog to me and if that's the case then sure keep Harris all day. He damn sure doesn't create shots for his teammates and the stats prove that since he's been in the league. What do people think they see that it would be a good idea to come down court and give Harris the ball every time and tell him to be a playmaker? Half those attempts would be charges.

you dont always need a shot creator that gets shots for teammates. Sometimes you need that guy who gets a decent shot no matter who is on him. MJ didnt create for others, he created for himself. Same with Derrick Rose, Tony Parker, Westbrook. We need someone that in a crunch time, we can give the ball and is getting a good shot.

Im a Harris fan and even i dont believe he can do that now. Can he develop it? maybe, but he would need to tighten his handles up a lot. Dipo has a better chance of being this type of player than Harris right now. Elf is someone that can create a shot for other players, he just needs to work on his game more (which i expect) so that he can also create and have confidence in his own shot.

If you think Harris doesn't have that ability to be relied on to create his own shot in crunch time then Middleton is extremely hopeless on that part.

From the top of my head, Harris has made at least 2 game winners wherein he created his own shot.

And tbh, I don't see anyone on our roster right now who has the ability of a Rose, Westbrook or TP as far as creating their shots is concerned. So I'd much rather have another guy who we can pass the ball to in crunch time to increase our chances of breaking down a defense.

[Bensational]

A "shot creator" sounds like a damn ball hog to me and if that's the case then sure keep Harris all day. He damn sure doesn't create shots for his teammates and the stats prove that since he's been in the league. What do people think they see that it would be a good idea to come down court and give Harris the ball every time and tell him to be a playmaker? Half those attempts would be charges.

you dont always need a shot creator that gets shots for teammates. Sometimes you need that guy who gets a decent shot no matter who is on him. MJ didnt create for others, he created for himself. Same with Derrick Rose, Tony Parker, Westbrook. We need someone that in a crunch time, we can give the ball and is getting a good shot.

Im a Harris fan and even i dont believe he can do that now. Can he develop it? maybe, but he would need to tighten his handles up a lot. Dipo has a better chance of being this type of player than Harris right now. Elf is someone that can create a shot for other players, he just needs to work on his game more (which i expect) so that he can also create and have confidence in his own shot.

If you think Harris doesn't have that ability to be relied on to create his own shot in crunch time then Middleton is extremely hopeless on that part.

From the top of my head, Harris has made at least 2 game winners wherein he created his own shot.

And tbh, I don't see anyone on our roster right now who has the ability of a Rose, Westbrook or TP as far as creating their shots is concerned. So I'd much rather have another guy who we can pass the ball to in crunch time to increase our chances of breaking down a defense.

Those crunch shots weren't a good example of Harris as a shot creator. They were both plays drawn up by JV and initiated from an inbound pass. One was a catch and shoot job, so no creation there. And the other one, his defender fell over, so that gave him some room to dribble to his favorite spot to shoot. Whilst I like that play, I'm not sure Harris could have done the same if his man hadn't fallen over in the first place.

I'm pretty sure Middleton could have done the same in both situations, to be honest.

[fendilim]

you dont always need a shot creator that gets shots for teammates. Sometimes you need that guy who gets a decent shot no matter who is on him. MJ didnt create for others, he created for himself. Same with Derrick Rose, Tony Parker, Westbrook. We need someone that in a crunch time, we can give the ball and is getting a good shot.

Im a Harris fan and even i dont believe he can do that now. Can he develop it? maybe, but he would need to tighten his handles up a lot. Dipo has a better chance of being this type of player than Harris right now. Elf is someone that can create a shot for other players, he just needs to work on his game more (which i expect) so that he can also create and have confidence in his own shot.

If you think Harris doesn't have that ability to be relied on to create his own shot in crunch time then Middleton is extremely hopeless on that part.

From the top of my head, Harris has made at least 2 game winners wherein he created his own shot.

And tbh, I don't see anyone on our roster right now who has the ability of a Rose, Westbrook or TP as far as creating their shots is concerned. So I'd much rather have another guy who we can pass the ball to in crunch time to increase our chances of breaking down a defense.

Those crunch shots weren't a good example of Harris as a shot creator. They were both plays drawn up by JV and initiated from an inbound pass. One was a catch and shoot job, so no creation there. And the other one, his defender fell over, so that gave him some room to dribble to his favorite spot to shoot. Whilst I like that play, I'm not sure Harris could have done the same if his man hadn't fallen over in the first place.

I'm pretty sure Middleton could have done the same in both situations, to be honest.

I was actually referring to the big shots against the Bucks and the Hawks play you were mentioning. Not that shot against the Sixers. I'm actually referring to shots being taken off the dribble.

Both were broken plays and eded up as an isolation for Harris.

Bucks play - he was able to shake his man off the dribble to launch that 3.
Hawks play- Sure Jacque Vaughn drew up that play, that was a broken play though. Regardless, DeMarre sure have slipped, but he actually had a good recovery on that play and challenged Tobias on that jumper pretty well.

NBA.com reference:
In fact just looking at stats alone, Tobias actually makes 3.9 Points per 48 on drives alone, as opposed to Middleton's 2.2 Tobias makes 3.9 drives per game compared to Middleton's 2.4. Thats less than 1 point per drive for Middleton.

Kris Middleton actually makes 4.9ppg on a catch and shoot basis on a 43.8% (which is better than Harris'), but thats more than 1/3 of his total PPG (13ppg) output. And attempts nearly half of what Harris attempts at the free throw line(2 FTAPG).

Harris meanwhile makes 4.2ppg on catch and shoot and only converting 39.5% of that, but thats even less than 1/4 of his total output. Shoots 3.7 FTAPG.

So to say Middleton is just as good as Harris is in creating his own shot, think again.

basketball reference per 36:
Assists are almost the same with middleton getting just .6 more apg per 36 minutes. I wouldn't even bother with the others because of positional usage (trpg, spg, bpg).

Creating for others? Harris is a ball hog?

ESPN:
Harris is also better, in Estimated Wins added and Value added.
Although, Middleton has a more efficient TS% of 57.3% as compared to Tobias' 55%.

[Last Guardian]

Its hilarious reading these comments.

First of, pinning your hopes on a 19 year old who cant even shoot consistently to be a good replacement for Tobias?

Right now, Middleton is a glorified Trevor Ariza. I'd take Tobias Harris any day for him. You need shot creators in order to be successful.

And the Thaddeus Young comparison? Ehhh...

AG has much more to do in this league of course, but he projects to be good at just about everything. The part he was supposed to be bad at was shooting, which hasn't been bad at all. For his age his ballhandling and defense is very good (especially the defense). It looks like rebounding will be a strength. We haven't seen much of it but he has shown flashes of great passing ability as well.

I will pin my hopes on AG because quite frankly, we need him to become special or we have no real hope as a team.

Let me put it this way: If nothing changes except say Payton and Dipo get better/more experienced, then we are a low playoff team. If we want to be contenders, we need AG to be special.

[tiderulz]

NBA.com reference:
In fact just looking at stats alone, Tobias actually makes 3.9 Points per 48 on drives alone, as opposed to Middleton's 2.2 Tobias makes 3.9 drives per game compared to Middleton's 2.4. Thats less than 1 point per drive for Middleton.

Kris Middleton actually makes 4.9ppg on a catch and shoot basis on a 43.8% (which is better than Harris'), but thats more than 1/3 of his total PPG (13ppg) output. And attempts nearly half of what Harris attempts at the free throw line(2 FTAPG).

Harris meanwhile makes 4.2ppg on catch and shoot and only converting 39.5% of that, but thats even less than 1/4 of his total output. Shoots 3.7 FTAPG.

So to say Middleton is just as good as Harris is in creating his own shot, think again.

basketball reference per 36:
Assists are almost the same with middleton getting just .6 more apg per 36 minutes. I wouldn't even bother with the others because of positional usage (trpg, spg, bpg).

Creating for others? Harris is a ball hog?

ESPN:
Harris is also better, in Estimated Wins added and Value added.
Although, Middleton has a more efficient TS% of 57.3% as compared to Tobias' 55%.

well, this is to be expected. Harris is more a drive and score near the basket, which will will lead to more FT's. and Middleton takes more outside and 3 ptrs, which would add to his TS.

But you keep arguing that Harris is better at creating his own shot than Middleton. What i am not hearing is anyone arguing with you on that. So im perplexed as to why you keep bringing it up.

What you arent factoring in is Middletons defense, which is much higher than Harris. If our team is built with Vuc at center who is not a help defender or shot blocker, our perimeter defense has to be top notch. Harris gives effort, and maybe with a real coach it would show more dividends, but Middleton is the better defender.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Harris almost seems redundant on this team. This isn't to say Tobes is a bad player or that it's even remotely possible to land Middleton but only the massive Tobes homers would say he's a good shot creator when he's average on his best night. It seems as though one of needs of this team is outside shooting and perimeter defense and Middleton provides both. They're a wash in terms of creating shots imo but Middleton's defense and outside shooting not only make him the better player but the better fit on this team.

[Viper1500]

Harris almost seems redundant on this team. This isn't to say Tobes is a bad player or that it's even remotely possible to land Middleton but only the massive Tobes homers would say he's a good shot creator when he's average on his best night. It seems as though one of needs of this team is outside shooting and perimeter defense and Middleton provides both. They're a wash in terms of creating shots imo but Middleton's defense and outside shooting not only make him the better player but the better fit on this team.

Have to agree

[fendilim]

NBA.com reference:
In fact just looking at stats alone, Tobias actually makes 3.9 Points per 48 on drives alone, as opposed to Middleton's 2.2 Tobias makes 3.9 drives per game compared to Middleton's 2.4. Thats less than 1 point per drive for Middleton.

Kris Middleton actually makes 4.9ppg on a catch and shoot basis on a 43.8% (which is better than Harris'), but thats more than 1/3 of his total PPG (13ppg) output. And attempts nearly half of what Harris attempts at the free throw line(2 FTAPG).

Harris meanwhile makes 4.2ppg on catch and shoot and only converting 39.5% of that, but thats even less than 1/4 of his total output. Shoots 3.7 FTAPG.

So to say Middleton is just as good as Harris is in creating his own shot, think again.

basketball reference per 36:
Assists are almost the same with middleton getting just .6 more apg per 36 minutes. I wouldn't even bother with the others because of positional usage (trpg, spg, bpg).

Creating for others? Harris is a ball hog?

ESPN:
Harris is also better, in Estimated Wins added and Value added.
Although, Middleton has a more efficient TS% of 57.3% as compared to Tobias' 55%.

well, this is to be expected. Harris is more a drive and score near the basket, which will will lead to more FT's. and Middleton takes more outside and 3 ptrs, which would add to his TS.

But you keep arguing that Harris is better at creating his own shot than Middleton. What i am not hearing is anyone arguing with you on that. So im perplexed as to why you keep bringing it up.

What you arent factoring in is Middletons defense, which is much higher than Harris. If our team is built with Vuc at center who is not a help defender or shot blocker, our perimeter defense has to be top notch. Harris gives effort, and maybe with a real coach it would show more dividends, but Middleton is the better defender.

thats exactly my point, because Tobias can take it to the basket when he needs to. While Middleton's game is basically stand in the corner and shoot.

Defensively, Middleton is better because he is bigger than most of the players he plays against, while Harris is forced to play the four.

The thing Is this, as I have stated prior, for the same amount of money, I'd rather have Harris mainly because he can create his own shot compared to Middleton who has to rely on his teammates. Because at the end of the day, someone like Middleton will struggle to create when he needs to, while Tobias can help break down the defense. I'm not saying Harris is very good at it either, but he is just way better on that aspect compared to Middleton. Harris can also be a floor spacer if he needs to, while Middleton's game is only limited to his catch and shoots, and will not be a go-to scorer when u need him to be.

Lastly, sure this team needs floor spacers etc... But there's a lot of that in the market every year. But a guy who can create shots like Tobias is cant be easily acquired.