The Vucevic Thread

Orlwillbeback · Post #81 » by **Orlwillbeback** » Tue Apr 7, 2015 2:31 am

I think there might be some truth to the notion that we have handed big roles for players who simply aren't good enough to succeed consistently in those roles. We are trying to make oladipo our franchise player, and while he has generally a strong sophomore campaign he still hasn't quelled doubts we have of him to become that player. I don't see dipo ever attaining top 15 player status. I think if we are .500 next year, vucevic would probably attain top 25 player status but this is quesyionable.

One thing that absolutely needs to happen is for our whole team to learn how to shoot. I'm not confident payton will ever become competent from the outside, it's harris and especially dipo that need to improve the most. If Tobias gets the max from us we need him to become the primary shooter from the outside and I'm not sure that's his game. Oladipo needs to improve dramatically from three and he needs to improve the spacing of our offense and for his own game. Right now frye, fournier and vucevic are the only consistent shooters on the team that I would feel comfortable having them shoot a bug number of attempts and Frye is unplayable because he doesn't contribute in other areas, fournier has injury concerns and vucevic is a midrange shooter and our center. It's time for hennigan to stop neglecting shooting as a skill in the draft imo.

pogiro · Post #82 » by **pogiro** » Tue Apr 7, 2015 2:38 am

rcklsscognition wrote:Well what I'm saying is that you put Vucevic up to the standards of all-stars and he holds up when you factor in his salary. It depends on who you want to keep. If you want to keep everyone, then who cares? If you think you've got to move some pieces eventually, who do you keep? Payton and Vuc? Ok, so is there a better 2 guard to pair with Payton? Yeah, there probably is, a shooter/scorer. Is there a better 3 than we have for those two guys? No, probably not. A 4? Yeah, we could use a defensive bruiser of a 4 to cover Vuc's weak side.

Me personally, I'd keep Payton, Harris, and Vucevic and then figure out what to do with Dipo. I'd run him as the 6th man and play him with Fournier. I think Vuc makes finding a 4 extremely straightforward which is why I am puzzled why we went with Frye, I guess it was less because of Vuc and all about opening the driving lanes for Payton/Oladipo. Vuc at this price tag is basically untouchable IMO.

That's what I'm saying though. So then put Dipo on the bench. Who's our starting 2 guard? So much talk, by not just you, about putting players in their proper roles, but why are people so ready to figure out our bench before we have our starters figured out?

I agree that Frye was a head scratcher.

Dipo-Fournier was an atrocity this year.

Personally, if the summer goes ideally for me, I'd keep Payton, Dipo, Vuc, and let Harris and Gordon battle it out, then put KAT at 4, bring in Thibodeau. I think a new coach and our pick has pretty big potential to be big steps forward. Which is why I have such a gripe with people talking about trading one of our more proven pieces, because IMO they're mistakenly pipe dreaming about prototypical players at each position, and coming to the conclusion of improbable trades and reorganization.

KillMonger · Post #83 » by **KillMonger** » Tue Apr 7, 2015 4:07 pm

Man i know nothing about advanced stats, just basic for me but is there any stock in win shares? Because if there isn't just disregard this post but just a fun fact Vuc is ranked 38th in the league in Win shares(An estimate of number of wins contributed by a player) There is some good players he's ahead of.....
(color to differentiate)
Zach Randolph Al Jefferson
Goran Dragic Andrew Bogut
DeMarcus Cousins Kenneth Faried
Greg Monroe Kemba Walker
Brook Lopez Tony Allen
Rudy Gay Monta Ellis
Serge Ibaka Dwyane Wade
Chandler Parsons David West
Joakim Noah Tony Parker
Andre Iguodala Roy Hibbert
Jeff Green Luol Deng

Just to name a few...... there are some great,great players ahead of him too.... is there any stock to this or is that stat in a Grey area?

seeingstars · Post #84 » by **seeingstars** » Tue Apr 7, 2015 4:54 pm

Immature Luigi wrote:Man i know nothing about advanced stats, just basic for me but is there any stock in win shares? Because if there isn't just disregard this post but just a fun fact Vuc is ranked 38th in the league in Win shares(An estimate of number of wins contributed by a player) There is some good players he's ahead of.....
(color to differentiate)
Zach Randolph Al Jefferson
Goran Dragic Andrew Bogut
DeMarcus Cousins Kenneth Faried
Greg Monroe Kemba Walker
Brook Lopez Tony Allen
Rudy Gay Monta Ellis
Serge Ibaka Dwyane Wade
Chandler Parsons David West
Joakim Noah Tony Parker
Andre Iguodala Roy Hibbert
Jeff Green Luol Deng

Just to name a few...... there are some great,great players ahead of him too.... is there any stock to this or is that stat in a Grey area?

Yeah I've always wondered how that's calculated.

j-ragg · Post #85 » by **j-ragg** » Wed Apr 8, 2015 12:14 am

OrlandO wrote:
j-ragg wrote:
OrlandO wrote:Just admit you're the only one out of 48 who voted to randomly trade him soon just to get rid of him and the only one out of 35 who didn't vote for him for sweater vest after he put up 37/17 in a win. Admit it!!

lol you got me on the trade him vote. Didn't vote in the vest thread I don't think.

Sorry, and this is more of a friendly jab than anything, but after all those overly negative comments from you about vuc at seemingly every opportunity for the past couple months...[/img]

Please humor me, prove it and vote in the vest thread now (any choice, just want some proof): http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1381100#start_here

You won't believe me but I voted for Vooch when that thread was created. I'm not sure how to capture it onto a pic and put it on here, but if I didn't vote for him I'd tell ya. A mod could confirm if you're curious. No secret what my opinion of him is though lol. Sorry forgot that you quoted me on here.

j-ragg · Post #86 » by **j-ragg** » Wed Apr 8, 2015 12:19 am

Immature Luigi wrote:Just curious j-ragg what would be the solution? Who would you trade vuc for that's realistic and it works for all teams involved

Thats the big money question. Not trying to hate on him anymore, I think I've said my part, but there isn't a huge market for bigs that don't defend honestly. I think big-for-big would be a likely scenario. I've been trying to hold my breath for Boogie after we hire Mike Malone but being a little more realistic maybe if the Hawks let Millsap walk... they'd be interested and move Horford to the 4? They don't have much salary to send back though. There is a thread on the T&T asking for what we could get for Vucevic presuming we won the lotto unrealistically. Tough to say though I'm not arguing that.

ezzzp · Post #87 » by **ezzzp** » Wed Apr 8, 2015 4:42 am

j-ragg wrote:
Immature Luigi wrote:Just curious j-ragg what would be the solution? Who would you trade vuc for that's realistic and it works for all teams involved

Thats the big money question. Not trying to hate on him anymore, I think I've said my part, but there isn't a huge market for bigs that don't defend honestly. I think big-for-big would be a likely scenario. I've been trying to hold my breath for Boogie after we hire Mike Malone but being a little more realistic maybe if the Hawks let Millsap walk... they'd be interested and move Horford to the 4? They don't have much salary to send back though. There is a thread on the T&T asking for what we could get for Vucevic presuming we won the lotto unrealistically. Tough to say though I'm not arguing that.

whoa....vuc for mislap? yeeeeesh ...is there supposed to be green font or something?

MagicFan32 · Post #88 » by **MagicFan32** » Wed Apr 8, 2015 5:02 am

he's a 20/10 player you don't trade guys like that.

it's amazing how people here drool over dipo/gordon/payton, yet the only player that is actually a top player at his position, magic fans want to get rid of

never change realgm

and look where the cap is going, the magic have a 20/10 big for what will be below market value, we need to commit to gordon at the 4 and hope he can be a presence defensively in the paint

MagicStarwipe · Post #89 » by **MagicStarwipe** » Wed Apr 8, 2015 6:09 am

I swear people don't know what winning basketball looks like and just jack off over box scores. Nobody is saying Vuc isn't a good player, but a lot of NBA players could put up 20/10 and lose a ton of games. People are right to drool over Payton/AG/Dipo because they have potential as 2 way players. AKA winning basketball. Hell, Elfrid Payton today is a better player than Vuc. I believe AG will be better and hopefully Dipo can get there as well.

And Gordon is not a 4, and playing him there would not be wise and would negate his potentially elite perimeter defense.

I want to see Vuc next season under a good coach to see if they can teach him to play a semblance of defense.

MagicFan32 · Post #90 » by **MagicFan32** » Wed Apr 8, 2015 8:03 am

MagicStarwipe wrote:I swear people don't know what winning basketball looks like and just jack off over box scores. Nobody is saying Vuc isn't a good player, but a lot of NBA players could put up 20/10 and lose a ton of games. People are right to drool over Payton/AG/Dipo because they have potential as 2 way players. AKA winning basketball. Hell, Elfrid Payton today is a better player than Vuc. I believe AG will be better and hopefully Dipo can get there as well.

And Gordon is not a 4, and playing him there would not be wise and would negate his potentially elite perimeter defense.

I want to see Vuc next season under a good coach to see if they can teach him to play a semblance of defense.

feel free to look at the last 30 years of basketball and see how many teams won championships without a big that didn't produce near 20/10 per36 you got teams with lebron, and jordan. that's it, other than the 04 pistons. and the lebron teams had a 20/10 caliber big who accepted a reduced role.

gordon is not a 3, he can't handle the ball and he can't shoot, tell me how many successful 3's there are that can't do either.

Post #91 » by **Bensational** » Wed Apr 8, 2015 8:45 am

MagicFan32 wrote:
MagicStarwipe wrote:I swear people don't know what winning basketball looks like and just jack off over box scores. Nobody is saying Vuc isn't a good player, but a lot of NBA players could put up 20/10 and lose a ton of games. People are right to drool over Payton/AG/Dipo because they have potential as 2 way players. AKA winning basketball. Hell, Elfrid Payton today is a better player than Vuc. I believe AG will be better and hopefully Dipo can get there as well.

And Gordon is not a 4, and playing him there would not be wise and would negate his potentially elite perimeter defense.

I want to see Vuc next season under a good coach to see if they can teach him to play a semblance of defense.

feel free to look at the last 30 years of basketball and see how many teams won championships without a big that didn't produce near 20/10 per36 you got teams with lebron, and jordan. that's it, other than the 04 pistons. and the lebron teams had a 20/10 caliber big who accepted a reduced role.

gordon is not a 3, he can't handle the ball and he can't shoot, tell me how many successful 3's there are that can't do either.

Shaw, Hakeem, Duncan could all defend. Dirk had Chandler, who was DPOTY. You need a big who can score and one who can defend, or one who does both.

What people in this thread haven't really entertained is who is the defensive player we can partner with Vuc. ZBo needed Gasol. Kanter needed Ibaka. Who are we gonna find on that level? How many players are actually on that level? What are the odds that Towns/WCS/Porzingis are defenders of that caliber?

That's the honest question you need to ask yourself if you want to build around Vuc. Nobody is talking about that because they're too busy saying Vuc is a 20/10 guy.

Post #92 » by **Bensational** » Wed Apr 8, 2015 9:00 am

RickB-Orlando wrote:If you look at the game results, we have a significantly higher winning percentage when he has a big game, nearly .500 ball. Sure, a big game doesn't guarantee a win, but it increases our odds.

Keep him.

Yeah, but the averages for his big games aren't sustainable. In games he scores over 20 points we are, indeed, 10-11. But for Vuc to maintain that kind of impact he'd have to average 27ppg. If THAT was the Vuc we were talking about for 82 games then this wouldn't be a discussion. But that's another 7ppg he needs to score for 60 more games in the season.

I'm not even gonna say that's beyond him. Or, becoming a 25ppg player isn't beyond him (with some polish in the paint, improved offense from Dipo and Payton which would draw defenders for him, and getting to the line more). Those elements are all still in play. But getting to those levels will take a big jump for him and the team.

MagicFan32 · Post #93 » by **MagicFan32** » Wed Apr 8, 2015 10:21 am

Bensational wrote::evil:
MagicFan32 wrote:
MagicStarwipe wrote:I swear people don't know what winning basketball looks like and just jack off over box scores. Nobody is saying Vuc isn't a good player, but a lot of NBA players could put up 20/10 and lose a ton of games. People are right to drool over Payton/AG/Dipo because they have potential as 2 way players. AKA winning basketball. Hell, Elfrid Payton today is a better player than Vuc. I believe AG will be better and hopefully Dipo can get there as well.

And Gordon is not a 4, and playing him there would not be wise and would negate his potentially elite perimeter defense.

I want to see Vuc next season under a good coach to see if they can teach him to play a semblance of defense.

feel free to look at the last 30 years of basketball and see how many teams won championships without a big that didn't produce near 20/10 per36 you got teams with lebron, and jordan. that's it, other than the 04 pistons. and the lebron teams had a 20/10 caliber big who accepted a reduced role.

gordon is not a 3, he can't handle the ball and he can't shoot, tell me how many successful 3's there are that can't do either.

Shaw, Hakeem, Duncan could all defend. Dirk had Chandler, who was DPOTY. You need a big who can score and one who can defend, or one who does both.

What people in this thread haven't really entertained is who is the defensive player we can partner with Vuc. ZBo needed Gasol. Kanter needed Ibaka. Who are we gonna find on that level? How many players are actually on that level? What are the odds that Towns/WCS/Porzingis are defenders of that caliber?

That's the honest question you need to ask yourself if you want to build around Vuc. Nobody is talking about that because they're too busy saying Vuc is a 20/10 guy.

I want to build around good players
Vucevic is a good player
it's easy to say don't build around Vucevic as one of the key players without suggesting who should replace him, championships are still won with teams who can run offense close to the basket, lebron didn't win until he became more willing to play closer to the basket.

i think it's strange that you think it's so difficult to find defenders, and blow off someone who puts up 20/10 there are only 5 players in the league anywhere close to that, and vucevic is one of them.

i really don't get your point, if it's about finding an big that can defend that would be an issue whether vucevic is here or not

drsd · Post #94 » by **drsd** » Wed Apr 8, 2015 10:46 am

Immature Luigi wrote:Man i know nothing about advanced stats, just basic for me but is there any stock in win shares? Because if there isn't just disregard this post but just a fun fact Vuc is ranked 38th in the league in Win shares ….

One could estimate that Nikola Vučević is a top-5 Center in the NBA this year. Yes there has been injuries that push him up (eg. Dwight Howard). Another interesting metric beyond win shares is positional plus-minus for PER. Here Orlando's best position is Center. Orlando has a net-neutral PER at the Center slot. All other positions are in the red.

LINK

Taking this forward it is clear that Center is the position GM Hennigan can worry the least about.

PG was the worst, and that means that Payton must get better AND depth at bench PG must get a LOT better.
Next up are the SF and PF slots. We can all agree that those rotations have been appalling all year. Who starts at SF next year? Who starts at PF next year? What will the bench look like for forwards? These are the questions fans should be asking.

Vučević/O'Quinn/Dedmon is an NBA capable rotation at the Center slot almost all teams would rather have over what they sport now.

..

RickB-Orlando · Post #95 » by **RickB-Orlando** » Wed Apr 8, 2015 10:46 am

Bensational wrote::oops:
RickB-Orlando wrote:If you look at the game results, we have a significantly higher winning percentage when he has a big game, nearly .500 ball. Sure, a big game doesn't guarantee a win, but it increases our odds.

Keep him.

Yeah, but the averages for his big games aren't sustainable. In games he scores over 20 points we are, indeed, 10-11. But for Vuc to maintain that kind of impact he'd have to average 27ppg. If THAT was the Vuc we were talking about for 82 games then this wouldn't be a discussion. But that's another 7ppg he needs to score for 60 more games in the season.

I'm not even gonna say that's beyond him. Or, becoming a 25ppg player isn't beyond him (with some polish in the paint, improved offense from Dipo and Payton which would draw defenders for him, and getting to the line more). Those elements are all still in play. But getting to those levels will take a big jump for him and the team.

Sorry if this seems obtuse, but why would he have to average 27 PPG for him to score over 20 PPG consistently?
Wouldn't he just need to average, say, 21 PPG, an improvement of about 1 field goal per game?

I'm sure I'm missing your point, sorry about that, but if 21 PPG would do it, he's very close to that, and it seems quite achievable.

Post #96 » by **eyriq** » Wed Apr 8, 2015 10:59 am

While there is pretty much not a center I'd trade him for except Marc Gasol or Anthony Davis I don't get overly hyped about him because we suck. I think he owns some responsibility for the regression/stagnation of our rebuild, though yeah the bulk of the blame belongs to Vaughn IMO. I get the vibe that Henny thought we'd be better but things didn't mesh how he expected and some of that is on Vooch. We'll see if more drastic changes are needed beyond the coaching change but I suspect if things go so poorly that we need to move Vooch then Henny has failed and will be shown the door.

MagicStarwipe · Post #97 » by **MagicStarwipe** » Wed Apr 8, 2015 11:03 am

eyriq wrote:While there is pretty much not a center I'd trade him for except Marc Gasol or Anthony Davis I don't get overly hyped about him because we suck. I think he owns some responsibility for the regression/stagnation of our rebuild, though yeah the bulk of the blame belongs to Vaughn IMO. I get the vibe that Henny thought we'd be better but things didn't mesh how he expected and some of that is on Vooch. We'll see if more drastic changes are needed beyond the coaching change but I suspect if things go so poorly that we need to move Vooch then Henny has failed and will be shown the door.

Rubbish. This franchise's hopes do not rest on the shoulders of Vuc, nor does Hennigan's tenure live or die with him. If we move Vuc it will be to make the team better, plain and simple.

Post #98 » by **eyriq** » Wed Apr 8, 2015 11:09 am

MagicStarwipe wrote:
eyriq wrote:While there is pretty much not a center I'd trade him for except Marc Gasol or Anthony Davis I don't get overly hyped about him because we suck. I think he owns some responsibility for the regression/stagnation of our rebuild, though yeah the bulk of the blame belongs to Vaughn IMO. I get the vibe that Henny thought we'd be better but things didn't mesh how he expected and some of that is on Vooch. We'll see if more drastic changes are needed beyond the coaching change but I suspect if things go so poorly that we need to move Vooch then Henny has failed and will be shown the door.

Rubbish. This franchise's hopes do not rest on the shoulders of Vuc, nor does Hennigan's tenure live or die with him. If we move Vuc it will be to make the team better, plain and simple.

He's our longest and most expensive contract, is only 24, and has been in our top 3 every year of the rebuild. If there is a face to this rebuild it is Vucevic. Coming with the excuse that he needs to be moved to progress the rebuild is what I'd call a rubbish argument, if it comes to that the rebuild has failed and so to has Henny.

MagicStarwipe · Post #99 » by **MagicStarwipe** » Wed Apr 8, 2015 11:19 am

eyriq wrote:
MagicStarwipe wrote:
eyriq wrote:While there is pretty much not a center I'd trade him for except Marc Gasol or Anthony Davis I don't get overly hyped about him because we suck. I think he owns some responsibility for the regression/stagnation of our rebuild, though yeah the bulk of the blame belongs to Vaughn IMO. I get the vibe that Henny thought we'd be better but things didn't mesh how he expected and some of that is on Vooch. We'll see if more drastic changes are needed beyond the coaching change but I suspect if things go so poorly that we need to move Vooch then Henny has failed and will be shown the door.

Rubbish. This franchise's hopes do not rest on the shoulders of Vuc, nor does Hennigan's tenure live or die with him. If we move Vuc it will be to make the team better, plain and simple.

He's our longest and most expensive contract, is only 24, and has been in our top 3 every year of the rebuild. If there is a face to this rebuild it is Vucevic. Coming with the excuse that he needs to be moved to progress the rebuild is what I'd call a rubbish argument, if it comes to that the rebuild has failed and so to has Henny.

He's our most expensive contract... for now, because the real guys we are banking on are still on rookie contracts. It's not even a max contract. Vuc is not a franchise player. The only way Henny gets canned is if he thinks that he is.

tiderulz · Post #100 » by **tiderulz** » Wed Apr 8, 2015 11:42 am

MagicFan32 wrote:
MagicStarwipe wrote:I swear people don't know what winning basketball looks like and just jack off over box scores. Nobody is saying Vuc isn't a good player, but a lot of NBA players could put up 20/10 and lose a ton of games. People are right to drool over Payton/AG/Dipo because they have potential as 2 way players. AKA winning basketball. Hell, Elfrid Payton today is a better player than Vuc. I believe AG will be better and hopefully Dipo can get there as well.

And Gordon is not a 4, and playing him there would not be wise and would negate his potentially elite perimeter defense.

I want to see Vuc next season under a good coach to see if they can teach him to play a semblance of defense.

feel free to look at the last 30 years of basketball and see how many teams won championships without a big that didn't produce near 20/10 per36 you got teams with lebron, and jordan. that's it, other than the 04 pistons. and the lebron teams had a 20/10 caliber big who accepted a reduced role.

gordon is not a 3, he can't handle the ball and he can't shoot, tell me how many successful 3's there are that can't do either.

find me a team that won a title recently (last 15-20 years) that didnt have a big man providing great post defense, one who's center was strictly an offensive threat only

What should we do with Vuc?