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2015-2016 Lineups

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Re: 2015-2016 Lineups 

Post#21 » by tiderulz » Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:46 pm

OrlandO wrote:
drsd wrote:With the news media strongly suggesting Harris will not be matched...

I think that's just a rumor coming directly from harris' camp in order to get teams to bite and secure the biggest deal possible. More teams will go after him if they think he can be had. However, we've heard straight from henningan multiple times that we intend to bring him back at any cost. Despite that, the stupid infographic harris' camp recently commissioned to send to teams conveniently suggests we will not match.

Couple months ago on conference call to season ticket holders:
Magic GM Rob Hennigan says the club "intends" to bring back F Tobias Harris – a restricted free agent – "no matter what" the cost this summer.


A month and a half later from Harris camp:
"Rumor has it that the Magic will match "up" to 13m per year, but not a max."


Cheap trick, which the media has no problem exploiting since all they care about is hits.


i think this hits the nail on the head. PHX told everyone they would match Bledsoe and i dont believe he ever got an offer sheet. Harris' agent is doing everything he can to get an offer sheet, even if he plans and knows it would be matched and he stays in Orlando.

Checking other boards, Detroit and Toronto seem like they are ready to offer Harris, so it may be working.
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Re: 2015-2016 Lineups 

Post#22 » by ogmagicfan » Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:40 am

Honestly every year when people project minutes for players, they distribute way too many minutes to alot of players. Vuc will not only get 30 mpg. Players like Vuc & Dipo will get 35+ mpg, Payton will get around the same mark, etc.
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Re: 2015-2016 Lineups 

Post#23 » by Nemesis21 » Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:48 am

Payton/C Joseph/S Curry
Oladipo/Fournier/Harvey
Harris/Henzonja/Marble
E Davis/AG/Frye
Vooch/Dedmon/Dalembert
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Re: 2015-2016 Lineups 

Post#24 » by rcklsscognition » Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:44 pm

I'm really intrigued by our minutes allocation next year. I looked back at last year for minutes, and then predicted next year by looking at % of playtime last year at a certain position.

Elfrid 32 / Backup 10 / Oladipo 6
Oladipo 28 / Fournier 12 / Hezonja 8
Harris 24 / Hezonja 20 / Fournier 4
Free Agent PF 30 / Harris 10 / Frye 10
Vucevic 34 / Dedmon 14


No minutes for Gordon and Fournier gets 12 MPG cut. The choice here would then be to give Harris more time at the PF and playing Gordon at SF.

Elfrid 32 / Backup 10 / Oladipo 6
Oladipo 28 / Fournier 12 / Hezonja 8
Hezonja 20 /Gordon 18 / Fournier 10
Harris 34 / Frye 10 / Gordon 4
Vucevic 34 / Dedmon 14

That'd be a bit better. Some issues I have here are Frye. I'm not sure what their plan is for him. Do they start him? Do they bench him completely? Do they throw him a few minutes? Not sure. If he's benched, that's on Rob for a horrific signing.

What I could see happening is bringing in a new PF/C type and giving the Frye/Gordon/Dedmon minutes to that guy.

Elfrid 32 / Backup 10 / Oladipo 6
Oladipo 28 / Fournier 12 / Hezonja 8
Hezonja 20 /Gordon 18 / Fournier 10
Harris 34 / New PF 14
Vucevic 34 / Dedmon 14

If we don't bring back Harris:

Elfrid 32 / Backup 10 / Oladipo 6
Oladipo 28 / Fournier 12 / Marble/Harvey 4
Hezonja 28 /Gordon 18 / Fournier 10
New PF 30 / Frye 14 / Gordon 4
Vucevic 34 / Dedmon 14

Tough, some good players there but not enough minutes even with Tobias gone.
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Re: 2015-2016 Lineups 

Post#25 » by Magicman125 » Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:59 pm

Payton 34/Oladipo 14
Oladipo 20/Fournier 16/ Hezonja 12/ Harkless
Harris 18/Hezonja 14/ Fournier 8/ Gordon 8/ Harkless
Gordon 20/Frye 16/ Harris 12
Vucevic 32/Dedmon 12/Frye 4

Something like that would be a 9 man rotation with a decent minute distribution for everyone in our core.

It also utilizes the positional versatility Rob's been mentioning recently:
Dipo 2/1
Fournier 2/3
Hezonja 3/2
Frye 4/5
Gordon 4/3
Harris 3/4
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Re: Re: 2015-2016 Lineups 

Post#26 » by TDJacksonville » Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:10 pm

Magicman125 wrote:Payton 34/Oladipo 14
Oladipo 20/Fournier 16/ Hezonja 12/ Harkless
Harris 18/Hezonja 14/ Fournier 8/ Gordon 8/ Harkless
Gordon 20/Frye 16/ Harris 12
Vucevic 32/Dedmon 12/Frye 4

Something like that would be a 9 man rotation with a decent minute distribution for everyone in our core.

It also utilizes the positional versatility Rob's been mentioning recently:
Dipo 2/1
Fournier 2/3
Hezonja 3/2
Frye 4/5
Gordon 4/3
Harris 3/4
any lineup that gives Frye time at the 5 is dumb unless we are somehow unearthing a defensive minded post playing pf
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Re: Re: 2015-2016 Lineups 

Post#27 » by Magicman125 » Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:12 pm

TDJacksonville wrote:
Magicman125 wrote:Payton 34/Oladipo 14
Oladipo 20/Fournier 16/ Hezonja 12/ Harkless
Harris 18/Hezonja 14/ Fournier 8/ Gordon 8/ Harkless
Gordon 20/Frye 16/ Harris 12
Vucevic 32/Dedmon 12/Frye 4

Something like that would be a 9 man rotation with a decent minute distribution for everyone in our core.

It also utilizes the positional versatility Rob's been mentioning recently:
Dipo 2/1
Fournier 2/3
Hezonja 3/2
Frye 4/5
Gordon 4/3
Harris 3/4
any lineup that gives Frye time at the 5 is dumb unless we are somehow unearthing a defensive minded post playing pf


Last year I thought I remembered seeing him at the 5 for small stretches, it's not like I gave him a huge amount of minutes there. It's more a matter of having Gordon, Harris at the 4 as well, not sure how many minutes we'll want to give to Frye due to his contract/being a veteran presence on the floor (or if that pressure exists for Skiles)
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2015-2016 Lineups 

Post#28 » by tooler » Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:27 pm

These 3-5 tier depth charts always confuse me. MPG doesn't work like that anyway due to DNPs.

Obviously the starting lineup is the big thing, then some ideas for key rotation issues. For example, what to do about backup point guard, where to put Frye, etc.
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Re: 2015-2016 Lineups 

Post#29 » by ezzzp » Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:56 pm

Its very possible that Oladipo will take the biggest hit in minutes. His 36 mpg last season will be hard to match with added talent in the roles he plays plus the hypothetical better health of players competing for minutes in those roles.

Skiles has already stated that youth is no longer an excuse...defensive effort and ability + scoring efficiency will earn minutes. That has been his trademark throughout his coaching career. The goal this season is to put W's on the board; offensive efficiency and elite defense are key elements to winning.

With this in mind, Oladipo will face the stiffest roster competition for minutes:

Fournier will be in a contract year and he is already more efficient offensively and has all the tools for a structured offense + is a solid defender with great length (two inches longer standing reach than Oladipo and 6 months younger).

Hezonja will come in hungry and is also a top RH pick + Skiles stated before the draft that he was his favorite prospect. His size and athleticism could make him a very good wing defender able to switch even onto some 4's and his offense is already very advanced at 20.

Back up PG will very likely be one of places the Magic look to add depth. This will immediately impact his minutes. If Willie Green could earn minutes at PG then imagine what kind of minutes will be allotted to a skilled veteran PG or an up an coming PG with 3pt range and elite defense like Cory Joseph.

Payton was getting better and better every game last season. He is clearly the franchise PG of the future. I find it very unlikely that his role gets lessened and that he loses minutes to anyone.
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Re: 2015-2016 Lineups 

Post#30 » by SOUL » Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:13 pm

Steph had 32 mpg on a championship team. Minutes will be distributed fine - plus this takes into account zero injuries which is impossible and just game-by-game plays where one lineup or players may have the "juice" while others don't. That being said, Elfrid, Oladipo and Vuc will all get over 30+ minutes and the rest we'll see what happens.
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Re: 2015-2016 Lineups 

Post#31 » by penny33 » Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:14 pm

How about:
Payton/ Mo Williams / Hardley
Oladipo / Fournier / Marble
Harris / Herzonja / Harkless
Gordon / Ed Davis / Frye
Vucevic / Dedmon / Ndoye
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Re: 2015-2016 Lineups 

Post#32 » by Nemesis21 » Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:09 pm

penny33 wrote:How about:
Payton/ Mo Williams / Hardley
Oladipo / Fournier / Marble
Harris / Herzonja / Harkless
Gordon / Ed Davis / Frye
Vucevic / Dedmon / Ndoye



I think Ed Davis would start at PF. We have a very similar roster we'd like to see.



Payton/C Joseph/S Curry
Oladipo/Fournier/Harvey
Harris/Henzonja/Marble
E Davis/AG/Frye
Vooch/Dedmon/Dalembert
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2015-2016 Lineups 

Post#33 » by tooler » Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:25 pm

Fewer minutes is probably a great thing for Oladipo. He also seemed to play so much better as a secondary ball-handler in the middle of the season when Elfrid started full time before they weren't yet telling Vic to run the PnR so much. His best month was 34.9 MPG in January, not this 40 MPG crap.

Even though I have him sharing backup PG duties, I would love to let him play off the ball more. Fewer minutes might help with his defense too, which tumbled this season by some metrics, though part of that is learning to defend 2s.
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Re: 2015-2016 Lineups 

Post#34 » by ezzzp » Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:35 pm

This is how I see the minute distribution going if the roster stays put. The rotation is basically at 8 and then the talent level really drops off.

(1) Elfrid Payton 30 - 34
(2) Nikola Vucevic 30 - 34

(3) Tobias Harris 24 - 30
(4) Victor Oladipo 24 - 30
(5) Aaron Gordon 24 - 30

(6) Evan Fournier 20 - 26
(7) Mario Hezonja 20 - 26
(8) Dewayne Dedmon 20 - 26

(9) Frye < 12
(10) Nicholson < 12
(11) Harkless < 12

(13) ?
(14) ?
(15) ?
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Re: 2015-2016 Lineups 

Post#35 » by MagicStarwipe » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:49 am

SOUL wrote:Steph had 32 mpg on a championship team. Minutes will be distributed fine - plus this takes into account zero injuries which is impossible and just game-by-game plays where one lineup or players may have the "juice" while others don't. That being said, Elfrid, Oladipo and Vuc will all get over 30+ minutes and the rest we'll see what happens.

Most of that is because they blew so many teams out, he wasn't needed in the 4th quarter all that much. If they were in more close games, his minutes would have been higher.
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Re: 2015-2016 Lineups 

Post#36 » by Kytu » Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:48 am

Payton/ Oladipo/fournier
Oladipo/Henzonja/Fournier
Henzonja/Harris/Gordon
Harris/Gordon/Frye
Vuc/Dedmon/Fry
Heck idk too early to say we don't know what the roster will be opening night
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Re: 2015-2016 Lineups 

Post#37 » by JF5 » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:07 am

Too Early...

But

Payton/Nelson/Oladipo
Oladipo/Fournier/Hezonja
Harris/Hezonja/Gordon/Fournier
Gordon/Frye/Harris
Vucevic/Dedmon/Frye..
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2015-2016 Lineups 

Post#38 » by tooler » Tue Jul 7, 2015 3:24 pm

I like the idea I've seen in the 5 or 6 other lineup discussions about switching Harris and Gordon depending on the matchup.

Generally the other disadvantage of playing small is with rebounding. Skiles pointed out how we were top 10 in defensive rebounding percentage, but we couldn't get stops. What's interesting is that since Frye is a minus rebounder, we ought to be able to swap him out and still hold our own on the boards.

I'm more convinced than ever that we need to be smart about minutes. If Skiles wants to play top 5 defense and also get out and run to use our youth as an advantage, then we'll need to swap in subs to keep everyone fresh during the entire season.
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Re: 2015-2016 Lineups 

Post#39 » by yoyojw17 » Tue Jul 7, 2015 3:49 pm

tooler wrote:I like the idea I've seen in the 5 or 6 other lineup discussions about switching Harris and Gordon depending on the matchup.

Generally the other disadvantage of playing small is with rebounding. Skiles pointed out how we were top 10 in defensive rebounding percentage, but we couldn't get stops. What's interesting is that since Frye is a minus rebounder, we ought to be able to swap him out and still hold our own on the boards.

I'm more convinced than ever that we need to be smart about minutes. If Skiles wants to play top 5 defense and also get out and run to use our youth as an advantage, then we'll need to swap in subs to keep everyone fresh during the entire season.


Funny you talked about swapping out. I think we have a talented team with players that are getting better all the time. DEPTH

My assumed lineup during tip off of the season:
pg: Payton
sg: Oladipo
VF: Harris/Gordon
c: Vucevic

bench
pg: watson
sg: fournier
sf: Hezonja
pf: Nicholsen (yes Drew... because i think he will have a better year than previous when he's been forced to do other things than what he's great at (post and mid range play)
c: Dedmon

With balance existing in both lineups... i totally like the platoon/old sacramento "bench mod" strategy unless foul trouble is occurs.

Both teams will go out full blast and players are substituted for the most part as a group. Not only do you produce an improved group chemistry but also a defined role. Somewhere around the 7 minute mark start shifting from one squad to the other and 4-5 minutes into the 2nd quarter start going back to the starters. I think it's a solid idea to test with a team with a lot of talent, possibly more balanced roster and desire to run other teams into the ground.
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Re: 2015-2016 Lineups 

Post#40 » by doct3r dr3 » Wed Jul 8, 2015 5:55 pm

C: N. Vucevic / D. Dedmon / J. Smith
F: T. Harris / C. Frye / A. Nicholson
F: A. Gordon / M. Hezonja / M. Harkless
G: V. Oladipo / E. Fournier / D. Marble
G: E. Payton / C.J. Watson / T. Harvey


...seems to be the rotation until further notice.

The backcourt and wings look solid, but that frontcourt is really puzzling. Dedmon is the only rim protector (unless you buy into the flashes Nicholson showed in January), and Nicholson is the only post-up player (besides Vucevic). The starting lineup is full of scorers that make their living inside the three-point line, and the second unit is replete with three-point bombers with shaky defense (Frye/Hezonja/Fournier/Watson). I assume Jason Smith was brought to be injury insurance and to have a mock Vucevic/Frye to run sets with the third unit in practice.

So the question for the second unit is: which kind of one-dimensional "conventional" big do you slot beside all those shooters? A rim protector with no post game (Dedmon)? Or a post-up scorer (and jumpshooter) with questionable defense (Nicholson)?

Fans that have been here long enough might be able to guess my own personal answer to this question... ;-)

But I would contend that having Nicholson would improve that unit's offense more than Dedmon would improve its defense.

1. Skiles is known for being a meticulous defensive instructor, teaching his players the positioning and schemes they need in order to be effective help defenders within the team concept. Some have cited that Skiles was able to put out solid defensive teams with Eddy Curry at center. I believe Frye and Nicholson are cerebral enough guys to be able to pick up on Skiles's defensive schemes and run them the way he wants. Not to say that they'll have as many highlight reel blocks as Dedmon would, but I think they can still be reasonably effective defending against opposing second units.

2. The offensive effectiveness of those three-point shooters is limited by not having credible inside scorers. Consider this combined 2014-15 shot chart of those five players minus Hezonja (Watson/Fournier/Frye/Dedmon).

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...

...Now compare the career shot charts of Dedmon and Nicholson. (Neither attempted many shots in 2014-15 alone).

Dedmon
Image

Nicholson
Image



Nicholson would provide that essential missing piece for the team's overall spacing. As Frye pointed out at Media Day, Frye enjoyed (more) success in Phoenix playing at center, and Nicholson is a player that commands double teams in the post.





[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Demm3UkYfpM[/youtube]

Watch from (1:04-1:46)

John Denton: They want you to have a trickle-down effect on Victor and give him more lanes, and keep double-teams off Nik. That's what you can provide, right?

Channing Frye: Right, that's definitely what I can provide, and I think it's just a different look. I think for me, it's kinda, the way I've been used in Phoenix, that was pretty effective, was especially when I go to the five. You can play with Drew Nicholson or I can play the four with Vooch, and give them both space; they're down at the block. It's not like I don't like the block, they just don't pay me to go down there. Y'know, hey threes are more than twos anyways. For me, it's like Andrew is one of the toughest guys I've ever played against on the block. So for him to not get double-teamed... I mean, last year when we played him, we wouldn't even let him catch the ball without a double team. So, if he gets to play one-on-one, it's gonna create paint touches-...





So instead of having a bunch of predictable shooters heaving contested threes or forcing predictable 1-5 pick & rolls with Dedmon, suddenly you have someone drawing double teams in the paint, swinging it around for open threes like the Dwight/SVG days...
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BadMofoPimp wrote:Reached for a 2nd round talent in Nicholson.

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