Does AG at power forward make everything else work?

[ezzzp]

Mario was sea PG until 17 and a SG ever since then...yes he has size for a 3 but that is not what he has played ever and it wasn't where he played in summer league...

Just because he played that position as a youth international and in spot minutes professionally in Spain, that doesn't mean it is a lock to be his NBA position. There are very few guys in the 6'8" - 6'10" range that can both defend NBA SGs and handle the ball against them. I've only seen him in highlights and summer league, but what little I saw didn't make me think that he would break that trend.

Making a definitive statement that he will absolutely be a SF is totally premature and unsubstantiated. Saying he has played SG since he was 17 is an actual fact.

I'm not sure what possible criteria you are using for that height argument. Here are facts:

* In summer league, outside of being out of position a couple of times, Hezonja defended very well. Those lapses have nothing to do w height.

* In Spain he played more than "spot minutes" at shooting guard. In the past three years, Hezonja averaged between 12-16.5 mpg. The player with highest mpg on his Barcelona squad last season averaged 23 mpg. While at Barcelona, Hezonja showed a high capacity to be an excellent defender with very good foot speed and lateral agility...the ?'s around his defense were on focus and effort - but when locked in he was an above average defender. If you don't believe me - read the numerous scouting reports available.

...and I have no idea what you are talking about not being able to handle the ball against SG's as opposed to SF's? ... the SF position is stacked with (and has historically been where) the best perimeter defenders play: Kawhi, Iggy, P George, T Allen, Lebron, Butler etc...

[Catledge]

Making a definitive statement that he will absolutely be a SF is totally premature and unsubstantiated. Saying he has played SG since he was 17 is an actual fact.

Fair enough. I dispute neither statement. I'm just saying that the fact that he played that position as a teenager doesn't mean that he will play there in the NBA.

I'm not really rooting for him to play one position over the other, and like I said, my guess is based on limited observations. We'll see who is right in a few months.

[ezzzp]

Making a definitive statement that he will absolutely be a SF is totally premature and unsubstantiated. Saying he has played SG since he was 17 is an actual fact.

Fair enough. I dispute neither statement. I'm just saying that the fact that he played that position as a teenager doesn't mean that he will play there in the NBA.

I'm not really rooting for him to play one position over the other, and like I said, my guess is based on limited observations. We'll see who is right in a few months.

we probably won't know until the Fournier situation is resolved

[ivDT]

Aarons best position may be sf but he will play pf because he can guard both positions well whereas harris is not a good defender at either spot but is less overmatched at 3.

you've got it exactly backwards.

[yoyojw17]

First of all, those aren't facts. The site itself says it's an estimation. Second of all, the site is wrong because they assume Aaron played PF whenever he was on the court with Tobias. Anyone who watched the games can see that was not the case. The top 5 lineups Aaron played with all featured him at SF. So yeah, proved you wrong.

FYI. Top 5 lineups is not minutes played. Just wait and see over the next five years. Gordon will not end up as a primary SF just like Ben Wallace ended up a 6'9" Center.

Actually, it is.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gordoaa01/lineups/2015/

The times for the the 5 man rotation do not come close to adding up to the total time played.... the 4 man rotation looks more accurate while the rotation also does not help at all identifying who the pf is... because in all of them... if Harris is considered the SF... then the 66% that they indicate could be correct.

[tiderulz]

Aarons best position may be sf but he will play pf because he can guard both positions well whereas harris is not a good defender at either spot but is less overmatched at 3.

you've got it exactly backwards.

i think he means more overpowered, not overmatched. Harris has a stronger build right now and isnt overpowered at SF.

[MagicStarwipe]

FYI. Top 5 lineups is not minutes played. Just wait and see over the next five years. Gordon will not end up as a primary SF just like Ben Wallace ended up a 6'9" Center.

Actually, it is.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gordoaa01/lineups/2015/

The times for the the 5 man rotation do not come close to adding up to the total time played.... the 4 man rotation looks more accurate while the rotation also does not help at all identifying who the pf is... because in all of them... if Harris is considered the SF... then the 66% that they indicate could be correct.

Exactly. If Harris is considered the SF. But AG nearly always guarded the other teams SF when he was on the court with Tobias (which I've already mentioned), therefore I'd say AG was the SF.

[yoyojw17]

Actually, it is.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gordoaa01/lineups/2015/

The times for the the 5 man rotation do not come close to adding up to the total time played.... the 4 man rotation looks more accurate while the rotation also does not help at all identifying who the pf is... because in all of them... if Harris is considered the SF... then the 66% that they indicate could be correct.

Exactly. If Harris is considered the SF. But AG nearly always guarded the other teams SF when he was on the court with Tobias (which I've already mentioned), therefore I'd say AG was the SF.

My bad... might have missed that statement. But.... I'm just gonna start going to use the entire "Versatile Forward" or just plain old forward position as the name for the combination of the two of them. On offense they can both garner advantages over players at either position whether it is strength or athleticism. As the better defensive player... Gordon will just take the more difficult assignment. and if defensive assignments is what will dictate position... then so be it. That's the beauty of our lineup. Might struggle at time with the bruising/aggresive interior players.....but...there aren't too many of those in the league anymore. And against those type.... they will have to match their athleticism. So hopefully they take advantage of mismatches. Season can't come any sooner!!!!

[Blue_and_Whte]

I think those who think Gordon is a SF are really just looking at his attributes then "think or dream" that he should be a SF. From what I have seen in the organization, coaching and from Gordon himself clearly state that his future is mainly at PF.

Attributes....You mean the very SF-ish things he was pulling off summer league?.... What are we thinking calling a guy a SF who played just like a SF while showing absolutely nothing that would suggest he's a natural 4. What are we thinking? Right? /green.

He is a SF and I don't think it can even remotely be debated. And if someone tries I'll just laugh and post his summer league highlights. He'll likely play the PF position and may even start at PF for iua but for all intents and purposes he is a SF.

[BadMofoPimp]

I think those who think Gordon is a SF are really just looking at his attributes then "think or dream" that he should be a SF. From what I have seen in the organization, coaching and from Gordon himself clearly state that his future is mainly at PF.

Attributes....You mean the very SF-ish things he was pulling off?.... What are we thinking calling a guy a SF who played just like a SF while showing absolutely nothing that would suggest he's a natural 4. What are we thinking? Right? /green.

Rodman played his first 2 season at SF. And, he was skinnier than Aaron coming out of college. Does that make him a SF?

[fendilim]

I think those who think Gordon is a SF are really just looking at his attributes then "think or dream" that he should be a SF. From what I have seen in the organization, coaching and from Gordon himself clearly state that his future is mainly at PF.

Attributes....You mean the very SF-ish things he was pulling off?.... What are we thinking calling a guy a SF who played just like a SF while showing absolutely nothing that would suggest he's a natural 4. What are we thinking? Right? /green.

Rodman played his first 2 season at SF. And, he was skinnier than Aaron coming out of college. Does that make him a SF?

Wow. BP this is just life the second time we have agreed on a matter. lol

[T-Cat]

I think AG will start the year as a 3, but he will also play the 4 depending on match ups.

Skill wise he should develop faster as a 3 then as a 4.

Tobias Harris is physically ready to play the 4 more than Gordon right now.

All in all if we had signed Milsap he would surely play the 4, making Gordon the 3.

[Blue_and_Whte]

[quote="BadMofoPimp"][quote="Blue_and_Whte"][quote="BadMofoPimp"]I think those who think Gordon is a SF are really just looking at his attributes then "think or dream" that he should be a SF. From what I have seen in the organization, coaching and from Gordon himself clearly state that his future is mainly at PF.

Attributes....You mean the very SF-ish things he was pulling off?.... What are we thinking calling a guy a SF who played just like a SF while showing absolutely nothing that would suggest he's a natural 4. What are we thinking? Right? /green.[/quote]

Rodman played his first 2 season at SF. And, he was skinnier than Aaron coming out of college. Does that make him a SF?[/quote]
Wow. BP this is just life the second time we have agreed on a matter. lol[/quote]
Did Rodman have the handles, shooting, and passing skills that AG has? This is such a weak argument.
Gordon is a SF I don't care what position he plays during the game as they're interchangeable. Outside of being good defenders they play completely different l.

[ezzzp]

The times for the the 5 man rotation do not come close to adding up to the total time played.... the 4 man rotation looks more accurate while the rotation also does not help at all identifying who the pf is... because in all of them... if Harris is considered the SF... then the 66% that they indicate could be correct.

Exactly. If Harris is considered the SF. But AG nearly always guarded the other teams SF when he was on the court with Tobias (which I've already mentioned), therefore I'd say AG was the SF.

My bad... might have missed that statement. But.... I'm just gonna start going to use the entire "Versatile Forward" or just plain old forward position as the name for the combination of the two of them. On offense they can both garner advantages over players at either position whether it is strength or athleticism. As the better defensive player... Gordon will just take the more difficult assignment. and if defensive assignments is what will dictate position... then so be it. That's the beauty of our lineup. Might struggle at time with the bruising/aggresive interior players.....but...there aren't too many of those in the league anymore. And against those type.... they will have to match their athleticism. So hopefully they take advantage of mismatches. Season can't come any sooner!!!!

Do they really create mismatches? For that to happen Gordon will have to be summer league good on offense (especially from 3pt range). Otherwise, teams will always just put their best forward defender on Harris.

Meanwhile, Gordon is drawing the opposing team's best offensive forward - and that usually means Gordon (6-9 220) is either physically over matched or defending an elite offensive player...and in many cases stretched out leaving Harris and Vuc defending the paint...and this is just the Eastern Conference:

Lebron 6-8 250
C Bosh 6-11 240
P Gasol 7-0 250
A Horford 6-10 250
F Kaminsky 7-0 240
D Carrol 6-8 212
J Parker 6-8 240
K Towns 6-11 250
J Johnson 6-7 240
C Anthony 6-8 240
N Noel 6-11 230
D Lee 6-9 245
S Johnson 6-7 245
P George 6-9 220
Nene 6-11 250

Skiles will have to draw up a "coach of the year" innovative defensive strategy, and the team will have to execute that to perfection for a Harris/Gordon/Vuc front court to work and team to produce wins.

[ezzzp]

I think those who think Gordon is a SF are really just looking at his attributes then "think or dream" that he should be a SF. From what I have seen in the organization, coaching and from Gordon himself clearly state that his future is mainly at PF.

Attributes....You mean the very SF-ish things he was pulling off?.... What are we thinking calling a guy a SF who played just like a SF while showing absolutely nothing that would suggest he's a natural 4. What are we thinking? Right? /green.

Rodman played his first 2 season at SF. And, he was skinnier than Aaron coming out of college. Does that make him a SF?

uhhmm....well yes that makes him a SF in his first two seasons

[Crabman]

Exactly. If Harris is considered the SF. But AG nearly always guarded the other teams SF when he was on the court with Tobias (which I've already mentioned), therefore I'd say AG was the SF.

My bad... might have missed that statement. But.... I'm just gonna start going to use the entire "Versatile Forward" or just plain old forward position as the name for the combination of the two of them. On offense they can both garner advantages over players at either position whether it is strength or athleticism. As the better defensive player... Gordon will just take the more difficult assignment. and if defensive assignments is what will dictate position... then so be it. That's the beauty of our lineup. Might struggle at time with the bruising/aggresive interior players.....but...there aren't too many of those in the league anymore. And against those type.... they will have to match their athleticism. So hopefully they take advantage of mismatches. Season can't come any sooner!!!!

Do they really create mismatches? For that to happen Gordon will have to be summer league good on offense (especially from 3pt range). Otherwise, teams will always just put their best forward defender on Harris.

Meanwhile, Gordon is drawing the opposing team's best offensive forward - and that usually means Gordon (6-9 220) is either physically over matched or defending an elite offensive player...and in many cases stretched out leaving Harris and Vuc defending the paint...and this is just the Eastern Conference:

Lebron 6-8 250
C Bosh 6-11 240
P Gasol 7-0 250
A Horford 6-10 250
F Kaminsky 7-0 240
D Carrol 6-8 212
J Parker 6-8 240
K Towns 6-11 250
J Johnson 6-7 240
C Anthony 6-8 240
N Noel 6-11 230
D Lee 6-9 245
S Johnson 6-7 245
P George 6-9 220
Nene 6-11 250

Skiles will have to draw up a "coach of the year" innovative defensive strategy, and the team will have to execute that to perfection for a Harris/Gordon/Vuc front court to work and team to produce wins.

He doesn't need to be summer league good on offense, but yes Gordon will need to at least be able to hit open 3s at a decent %. If he does that he can create mismatches. He will bully SFs to the paint. It's not just about how tall they are. Gordon is a strong kid, can handle the ball well, and is physical. If you put a Korver, Hayward, Dunleavy, Dudley, Ilyasova, Mirotic, etc. on him he'll get the job done. I've seen him bully guys like John Henson, Humphries and even Zach Randolph.

Also, let's not forget the speed and athleticism between those two. Two forwards that can grab the rebound and run, they can wreak havoc in transition. We need to play an uptempo offense, we scored well when we did that last season. Problem was our defense was terrible and we turned the ball over a ton when we did that.

I also think you're under rating Harris' defense. He has pretty quick feet and we saw his ability to block shots when he first got to Orlando. He averaged like 1.5bpg. He's not going to suddenly become a great defender, but there's some potential there for him to develop into a solid defender. He's somewhat versatile on that end. Still Skiles has his work cut out for him. He needs to make them into a good defensive team. We have major problems on that end. Vucevic and Harris can't defend the rim alone, the whole team has to work together. Luckily, Skiles is widely regarded as a good defensive coach, and we have players with elite potential on defense (Payton, Oladipo, and Gordon) to surround Vucevic and Harris.

[ezzzp]

My bad... might have missed that statement. But.... I'm just gonna start going to use the entire "Versatile Forward" or just plain old forward position as the name for the combination of the two of them. On offense they can both garner advantages over players at either position whether it is strength or athleticism. As the better defensive player... Gordon will just take the more difficult assignment. and if defensive assignments is what will dictate position... then so be it. That's the beauty of our lineup. Might struggle at time with the bruising/aggresive interior players.....but...there aren't too many of those in the league anymore. And against those type.... they will have to match their athleticism. So hopefully they take advantage of mismatches. Season can't come any sooner!!!!

Do they really create mismatches? For that to happen Gordon will have to be summer league good on offense (especially from 3pt range). Otherwise, teams will always just put their best forward defender on Harris.

Meanwhile, Gordon is drawing the opposing team's best offensive forward - and that usually means Gordon (6-9 220) is either physically over matched or defending an elite offensive player...and in many cases stretched out leaving Harris and Vuc defending the paint...and this is just the Eastern Conference:

Lebron 6-8 250
C Bosh 6-11 240
P Gasol 7-0 250
A Horford 6-10 250
F Kaminsky 7-0 240
D Carrol 6-8 212
J Parker 6-8 240
K Towns 6-11 250
J Johnson 6-7 240
C Anthony 6-8 240
N Noel 6-11 230
D Lee 6-9 245
S Johnson 6-7 245
P George 6-9 220
Nene 6-11 250

Skiles will have to draw up a "coach of the year" innovative defensive strategy, and the team will have to execute that to perfection for a Harris/Gordon/Vuc front court to work and team to produce wins.

He doesn't need to be summer league good on offense, but yes Gordon will need to at least be able to hit open 3s at a decent %. If he does that he can create mismatches. He will bully SFs to the paint. It's not just about how tall they are. Gordon is a strong kid, can handle the ball well, and is physical. If you put a Korver, Hayward, Dunleavy, Dudley, Ilyasova, Mirotic, etc. on him he'll get the job done. I've seen him bully guys like John Henson, Humphries and even Zach Randolph.

Also, let's not forget the speed and athleticism between those two. Two forwards that can grab the rebound and run, they can wreak havoc in transition. We need to play an uptempo offense, we scored well when we did that last season. Problem was our defense was terrible and we turned the ball over a ton when we did that.

I also think you're under rating Harris' defense. He has pretty quick feet and we saw his ability to block shots when he first got to Orlando. He averaged like 1.5bpg. He's not going to suddenly become a great defender, but there's some potential there for him to develop into a solid defender. He's somewhat versatile on that end. Still Skiles has his work cut out for him. He needs to make them into a good defensive team. We have major problems on that end. Vucevic and Harris can't defend the rim alone, the whole team has to work together. Luckily, Skiles is widely regarded as a good defensive coach, and we have players with elite potential on defense (Payton, Oladipo, and Gordon) to surround Vucevic and Harris.

The main problem will be the match-ups on the defensive end when Gordon and Harris play together. The list above is of the Eastern Conference players Gordon will need to defend if he's playing alongside Harris (who'll guard the lesser forward). The majority of the players he'll have to defend nightly will outweigh him by 20-35lbs, be taller and/or longer, and many are also elite athletes and elite scorers...and that list gets even more difficult vs Western Conference.

Having a Skiles designed team defense will help, but Gordon will have to cover a lot of ground on defense playing next to Harris and Vuc, and he'll have to defend his guy (while frequently being outsized) for 25-30 minutes AND produce on the offensive end in a faster paced offense...

...in my opinion, Dedmon will have a much bigger role than many expect. He'll clock at least 20-25mpg.

[yoyojw17]

Do they really create mismatches? For that to happen Gordon will have to be summer league good on offense (especially from 3pt range). Otherwise, teams will always just put their best forward defender on Harris.

Meanwhile, Gordon is drawing the opposing team's best offensive forward - and that usually means Gordon (6-9 220) is either physically over matched or defending an elite offensive player...and in many cases stretched out leaving Harris and Vuc defending the paint...and this is just the Eastern Conference:

Lebron 6-8 250
C Bosh 6-11 240
P Gasol 7-0 250
A Horford 6-10 250
F Kaminsky 7-0 240
D Carrol 6-8 212
J Parker 6-8 240
K Towns 6-11 250
J Johnson 6-7 240
C Anthony 6-8 240
N Noel 6-11 230
D Lee 6-9 245
S Johnson 6-7 245
P George 6-9 220
Nene 6-11 250

Skiles will have to draw up a "coach of the year" innovative defensive strategy, and the team will have to execute that to perfection for a Harris/Gordon/Vuc front court to work and team to produce wins.

He doesn't need to be summer league good on offense, but yes Gordon will need to at least be able to hit open 3s at a decent %. If he does that he can create mismatches. He will bully SFs to the paint. It's not just about how tall they are. Gordon is a strong kid, can handle the ball well, and is physical. If you put a Korver, Hayward, Dunleavy, Dudley, Ilyasova, Mirotic, etc. on him he'll get the job done. I've seen him bully guys like John Henson, Humphries and even Zach Randolph.

Also, let's not forget the speed and athleticism between those two. Two forwards that can grab the rebound and run, they can wreak havoc in transition. We need to play an uptempo offense, we scored well when we did that last season. Problem was our defense was terrible and we turned the ball over a ton when we did that.

I also think you're under rating Harris' defense. He has pretty quick feet and we saw his ability to block shots when he first got to Orlando. He averaged like 1.5bpg. He's not going to suddenly become a great defender, but there's some potential there for him to develop into a solid defender. He's somewhat versatile on that end. Still Skiles has his work cut out for him. He needs to make them into a good defensive team. We have major problems on that end. Vucevic and Harris can't defend the rim alone, the whole team has to work together. Luckily, Skiles is widely regarded as a good defensive coach, and we have players with elite potential on defense (Payton, Oladipo, and Gordon) to surround Vucevic and Harris.

The main problem will be the match-ups on the defensive end when Gordon and Harris play together. The list above is of the Eastern Conference players Gordon will need to defend if he's playing alongside Harris (who'll guard the lesser forward). The majority of the players he'll have to defend nightly will outweigh him by 20-35lbs, be taller and/or longer, and many are also elite athletes and elite scorers...and that list gets even more difficult vs Western Conference.

Having a Skiles designed team defense will help, but Gordon will have to cover a lot of ground on defense playing next to Harris and Vuc, and he'll have to defend his guy (while frequently being outsized) for 25-30 minutes AND produce on the offensive end in a faster paced offense...

...in my opinion, Dedmon will have a much bigger role than many expect. He'll clock at least 20-25mpg.

I will agree.... that dedmon is going to take a leap forward.

and i get your concern about his weight..... but there is a difference between being weak and being light. he might not be the bulkiest person... but he is definitely not weak. Even when he was 220lb he is a lot stronger player than his size would suggest. Some people have also said that it was reported that during summer league it was stated that he's up to the 230-235 range now... which makes it even better.

Out of that list... the one player that really makes me go... "ehhhhhh..." about is Lebron James... and that can probably be said for any team in the league. After that... maybe pau (assuming him and noah play with one another... which is a case that has been brought up) and maybe towns (if he rounds out during the season). For the most part i can see him holding his own against any of the other player. He doesn't have to shut them down... but i am confident that he will be able to make it tough on them and even get them out of their game. The combination of strength, speed and defensive instincts that he brings to the table is pretty impressive.

But that's just me.

[ezzzp]

Lebron 6-8 250
C Bosh 6-11 240
P Gasol 7-0 250
A Horford 6-10 250
F Kaminsky 7-0 240
D Carrol 6-8 212
J Parker 6-8 240
K Towns 6-11 250
J Johnson 6-7 240
C Anthony 6-8 240
N Noel 6-11 230
D Lee 6-9 245
S Johnson 6-7 245
P George 6-9 220
Nene 6-11 250

I will agree.... that dedmon is going to take a leap forward.

and i get your concern about his weight..... but there is a difference between being weak and being light. he might not be the bulkiest person... but he is definitely not weak. Even when he was 220lb he is a lot stronger player than his size would suggest. Some people have also said that it was reported that during summer league it was stated that he's up to the 230-235 range now... which makes it even better.

Out of that list... the one player that really makes me go... "ehhhhhh..." about is Lebron James... and that can probably be said for any team in the league. After that... maybe pau (assuming him and noah play with one another... which is a case that has been brought up) and maybe towns (if he rounds out during the season). For the most part i can see him holding his own against any of the other player. He doesn't have to shut them down... but i am confident that he will be able to make it tough on them and even get them out of their game. The combination of strength, speed and defensive instincts that he brings to the table is pretty impressive.

But that's just me.

He might be strong and fast and have good instincts...but the other side of that equation is that so are his nightly assignments and in many cases, they are seasoned veterans in their prime. The attributes you assign Gordon are also true for his opponents - it is why many of them are all-stars or elite scorers and for the most part all are proven NBA starters.

Gordon has great potential, and perhaps throwing him to the wolves by starting him alongside Vuc and Harrs will be good for him. But I don't think it will produce W's...and I seriously doubt a starting front court of those three can produce a top 5 defense (Skiles' stated goal).

...and btw the weight gain was a comment made by a realGM poster guessing that he looked bigger from looking at summer league on TV vs primarily college kids - not from legit news source observation.

[Crabman]

so how is someone like Pau (for ex) going to guard Gordon if he starts making 3s? There are very few teams in the league with a PF/C combo that can post up. More often than not, Vucevic will match up with the Gasols in the post where he is a good enough defender. The only team I can think of right now is Memphis who has Marc and Randolph? How is Randolph or Marc gonna close out on Gordon? He can bet them off the dribble with his speed and handle anytime. AG just needs to hit 3s at a decent rate (like 32%).

It doesn't really matter if we're top 5 defensively. I understand Skiles said that. We need to harness our potential on D, and somehow make the offense work. Top 10-15 defense would be nice, we can't expect a major jump that quick.

I agree about using Dedmon more often. I think/hopes he gets 20mpg. Hopefully he keeps improving on his foul rate and helps us when we need to play lock down D. He can be a big difference maker.