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The Payton Situation

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Re: The Payton Situation 

Post#81 » by Melvinlocker » Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:14 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Melvinlocker wrote:So I'm going to stir the pot a little bit just for the sake of conversation. Let's say it turns out we are able to acquire Darren Collison or George Hill in a trade. Are either of those guys worth dumping Payton. Both of them can hold their own defensively and can run an offense with minimal turnovers. They can hit threes at a solid clip and can draw and hit free throws at a solid rate.

Hill is in the middle of his prime at 29 and is probably the better player of the two, while Collison is younger at 28.

Spoiler:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0DiIRGRCnU[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItOiGZ3M0zc[/youtube]


Under what far fetched scenario does Indiana trade a key player - George Hill - who is only halfway thru a great value $8m per year deal? and what starter do you give up or combination of key bench players (of the +20 mpg type) do you give to Indiana?

George Hill probably costs the Magic Tobias Harris or Fournier + Dedmon at minimum for the conversation to start for Indiana. They are not going to trade their starting point guard on a killer contract for Andrew Nicholson and Jason Smith.

With Rondo on a 1 year deal, why would the Kings put themselves in a situation where they have zero point guards by trading away Collison? and again who are you trading for the Kings to do that?


I should have clarified. I'm suggesting that in the event that Payton is largely the same player this season, do we look at our options next summer and see what other PG's are available (ala Philly and MCW)?

The proposed trades are centered around Payton and whoever else might need to be added to make the contracts work. I think this brings up an interesting thought experiment regarding our valuation of Payton as a prospect. Do we value Payton's peak in a few years more than we value 3 to 5 peak years of these PG's who were just suggested (keeping in mind that Vuc, Tobias and Vic are entering prime years)? I honestly don't know the answer to that question.

I'm also not saying defintievely that we should trade Payton next summer either because we won't know exactly what we have here until year 3. I'm just trying to get a feel for what the board thinks of Payton in relation to what other PG's could provide us. This also provides those who dislike him with a platform to speak their mind about alternatives.
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Re: The Payton Situation 

Post#82 » by fateis007 » Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:16 pm

Payton could have easily won rookie of the year, and he was the 10th pick. what is wrong with people?

So what if his shot is a work in progress. He has a deadly floater when he breaks his man down or they back off, he is very athletic with great speed burst, he can get by players at will, hes a great rebounder, racks up steals, has great length for the position, he is probably the only player on our team with a non score first mentality, and to top it off he is easily creates his own shot off the dribble, as he has the best handles on the team.

I really do wonder about this forum sometimes, a few rusty games and were calling for career subs and a rookie that had an abysmal season to replace our potential corner stone player.

I dont even know if people watch the games. This kid is a stud and we would be dumb to trade him for Collison or even consider him a replacement.
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Re: The Payton Situation 

Post#83 » by KillMonger » Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:18 am

Payton will be fine, he's proven that he can turn it up when the games start to count. The only thing we should be worried about is that the hamstring doesn't linger. Don't worry guys just watch
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Re: The Payton Situation 

Post#84 » by ezzzp » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:43 pm

fateis007 wrote:Payton could have easily won rookie of the year, and he was the 10th pick. what is wrong with people?

So what if his shot is a work in progress. He has a deadly floater when he breaks his man down or they back off, he is very athletic with great speed burst, he can get by players at will, hes a great rebounder, racks up steals, has great length for the position, he is probably the only player on our team with a non score first mentality, and to top it off he is easily creates his own shot off the dribble, as he has the best handles on the team.

I really do wonder about this forum sometimes, a few rusty games and were calling for career subs and a rookie that had an abysmal season to replace our potential corner stone player.

I dont even know if people watch the games. This kid is a stud and we would be dumb to trade him for Collison or even consider him a replacement.


don't worry its just the same handful...most Magic fans on this board know that its silly to suddenly panic and call for a "re-evaluation" of Payton because of a few minutes in meaningless scrimmage games and a distorted interpretation of Skiles' proposed system....especially when there is an entire season of him starting 82 real games vs real NBA opponents to evaluate him with.

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Re: The Payton Situation 

Post#85 » by Crabman » Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:53 am

Wall
Westbrook
Rondo
Parker

Were/are all considered elite point guards without even being average shooters. Payton has the potential to be a better defender than all of them.
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Re: The Payton Situation 

Post#86 » by Optimus_Steel » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:56 pm

Payton has a chance to be the best PG defender in the league at some point. He is that good and he has all the physical attributes needed. He is also a terrific passer. Just needs seasoning time and better coaching which it looks like he will get now thanks to Skiles. Payton will be fine, just a few people over reacting over some meaningless preseason games. How quickly people forget that at times last year he looked like a star.
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Re: The Payton Situation 

Post#87 » by Tayswagzzz » Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:00 pm

Optimus_Steel wrote:Payton has a chance to be the best PG defender in the league at some point. He is that good and he has all the physical attributes needed. He is also a terrific passer. Just needs seasoning time and better coaching which it looks like he will get now thanks to Skiles. Payton will be fine, just a few people over reacting over some meaningless preseason games. How quickly people forget that at times last year he looked like a star.


Yeah. I pointed out that no matter how Payton looked in SL/Pre-Season, last year he was looking like a star. No need for people to panic.
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Re: The Payton Situation 

Post#88 » by Catledge » Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:34 pm

Optimus_Steel wrote:Payton has a chance to be the best PG defender in the league at some point. He is that good and he has all the physical attributes needed. He is also a terrific passer. Just needs seasoning time and better coaching which it looks like he will get now thanks to Skiles. Payton will be fine, just a few people over reacting over some meaningless preseason games. How quickly people forget that at times last year he looked like a star.


Seems to me that the majority of what's going on in this thread is people overreacting to some limited and reasonable criticisms of Payton.

And, as one of those limited and reasonable criticizers of Payton, I have not forgotten how he played last season. He had some moments where he looked like a star, but he had way more moments when he looked like a backup pg. I know you disagree, but the numbers are pretty clear that he had more bad games than good last season--which is perfectly normal for a rookie pg. But now we need him to not look like a rookie anymore, and it seems perfectly fair to point out that we're still waiting for that to happen.
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Re: The Payton Situation 

Post#89 » by ezzzp » Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:23 am

Catledge wrote:
Optimus_Steel wrote:Payton has a chance to be the best PG defender in the league at some point. He is that good and he has all the physical attributes needed. He is also a terrific passer. Just needs seasoning time and better coaching which it looks like he will get now thanks to Skiles. Payton will be fine, just a few people over reacting over some meaningless preseason games. How quickly people forget that at times last year he looked like a star.


Seems to me that the majority of what's going on in this thread is people overreacting to some limited and reasonable criticisms of Payton.

And, as one of those limited and reasonable criticizers of Payton, I have not forgotten how he played last season. He had some moments where he looked like a star, but he had way more moments when he looked like a backup pg. I know you disagree, but the numbers are pretty clear that he had more bad games than good last season--which is perfectly normal for a rookie pg. But now we need him to not look like a rookie anymore, and it seems perfectly fair to point out that we're still waiting for that to happen.



Uhm...No - it does not seem perfectly fair to analyze his second year when Payton's first season as "not a rookie" doesn't even begin for another two days. Not a single second of his sophomore season has been played - so what exactly are you basing your "waiting for him to play not like a rookie" on?

On two summer league games? Or are you basing this incisive analyses on the two preseason scrimmage games that he played in?
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Re: The Payton Situation 

Post#90 » by Catledge » Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:56 am

ezzzp wrote:
Catledge wrote:
Optimus_Steel wrote:Payton has a chance to be the best PG defender in the league at some point. He is that good and he has all the physical attributes needed. He is also a terrific passer. Just needs seasoning time and better coaching which it looks like he will get now thanks to Skiles. Payton will be fine, just a few people over reacting over some meaningless preseason games. How quickly people forget that at times last year he looked like a star.


Seems to me that the majority of what's going on in this thread is people overreacting to some limited and reasonable criticisms of Payton.

And, as one of those limited and reasonable criticizers of Payton, I have not forgotten how he played last season. He had some moments where he looked like a star, but he had way more moments when he looked like a backup pg. I know you disagree, but the numbers are pretty clear that he had more bad games than good last season--which is perfectly normal for a rookie pg. But now we need him to not look like a rookie anymore, and it seems perfectly fair to point out that we're still waiting for that to happen.



Uhm...No - it does not seem perfectly fair to analyze his second year when Payton's first season as "not a rookie" doesn't even begin for another two days. Not a single second of his sophomore season has been played - so what exactly are you basing your "waiting for him to play not like a rookie" on?

On two summer league games? Or are you basing this incisive analyses on the two preseason scrimmage games that he played in?


I'm basing my evaluation on his performance last year, which was mostly back-up quality. The absence of further evidence to the contrary is the source of my concern.

I don't see what's so crazy about that.
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Re: The Payton Situation 

Post#91 » by Bensational » Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:07 am

ezzzp wrote:
Catledge wrote:
Optimus_Steel wrote:Payton has a chance to be the best PG defender in the league at some point. He is that good and he has all the physical attributes needed. He is also a terrific passer. Just needs seasoning time and better coaching which it looks like he will get now thanks to Skiles. Payton will be fine, just a few people over reacting over some meaningless preseason games. How quickly people forget that at times last year he looked like a star.


Seems to me that the majority of what's going on in this thread is people overreacting to some limited and reasonable criticisms of Payton.

And, as one of those limited and reasonable criticizers of Payton, I have not forgotten how he played last season. He had some moments where he looked like a star, but he had way more moments when he looked like a backup pg. I know you disagree, but the numbers are pretty clear that he had more bad games than good last season--which is perfectly normal for a rookie pg. But now we need him to not look like a rookie anymore, and it seems perfectly fair to point out that we're still waiting for that to happen.



Uhm...No - it does not seem perfectly fair to analyze his second year when Payton's first season as "not a rookie" doesn't even begin for another two days. Not a single second of his sophomore season has been played - so what exactly are you basing your "waiting for him to play not like a rookie" on?

On two summer league games? Or are you basing this incisive analyses on the two preseason scrimmage games that he played in?


So then Oladipo still hasn't improved as a shooter, Aaron Gordon still has no offensive game and Hezonja has yet to prove he can make it in this league? Or is it only poor performances that don't count in preseason/summer league?
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Re: The Payton Situation 

Post#92 » by SOUL » Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:28 am

I don't think he's saying that - Catledge is arguing from a perspective where in HIS opinion Payton looked like a backup PG most of the season, whereas everybody else clearly didn't see that - he knows he's in the minority in that feeling because I remember arguing with him last year DURING the season about Payton because it was like he was watching a different game than everybody else.

And he also keeps slotting Oladipo into the PG spot which clearly does not work and it showed last year anytime he hammered the ball into the top of the key. Again, I don't know what games Catledge is watching.

Also keep in mind that most players in the league will progress instead of regress, which is why people are hyped about Gordon when he was billed as a non-shooter coming into the league. Rookies like Hezonja you just want to see they could hang, which has been promising as well.

Still, I don't think getting too high or low before the season is a good way to go - unless they look like complete garbage or like an unstoppable juggernaut - which nobody has.
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Re: The Payton Situation 

Post#93 » by ezzzp » Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:43 am

Catledge wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Catledge wrote:
Seems to me that the majority of what's going on in this thread is people overreacting to some limited and reasonable criticisms of Payton.

And, as one of those limited and reasonable criticizers of Payton, I have not forgotten how he played last season. He had some moments where he looked like a star, but he had way more moments when he looked like a backup pg. I know you disagree, but the numbers are pretty clear that he had more bad games than good last season--which is perfectly normal for a rookie pg. But now we need him to not look like a rookie anymore, and it seems perfectly fair to point out that we're still waiting for that to happen.



Uhm...No - it does not seem perfectly fair to analyze his second year when Payton's first season as "not a rookie" doesn't even begin for another two days. Not a single second of his sophomore season has been played - so what exactly are you basing your "waiting for him to play not like a rookie" on?

On two summer league games? Or are you basing this incisive analyses on the two preseason scrimmage games that he played in?


I'm basing my evaluation on his performance last year, which was mostly back-up quality. The absence of further evidence to the contrary is the source of my concern.

I don't see what's so crazy about that.


So you are basing this on your opinion not statistical facts? because amongst all NBA PG's:

Payton was 14th in RPM:
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Payton was 9th in Defensive RPM:
Spoiler:
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Payton was 10th in WAR:
Spoiler:
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Even in Offensive RPM Payton was still better than most PG's - ranked 22nd:
Spoiler:
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+ he was named as the PG on First Team NBA All-Rookie Team
+ he ranked 16th amongst all NBA players in Assist to TurnOver ratio
+ he ranked 14th amongst all NBA players in Assists
+ he ranked 13th amongst all NBA players in Steals
+ he notched 2 triple doubles in his rookie season

...what about those actual statistical facts compared to the rest of the NBA point guards says he was "mostly back up quality"?
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Re: The Payton Situation 

Post#94 » by ezzzp » Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:51 am

Bensational wrote:
So then Oladipo still hasn't improved as a shooter, Aaron Gordon still has no offensive game and Hezonja has yet to prove he can make it in this league? Or is it only poor performances that don't count in preseason/summer league?


That is correct.

We don't know if Oladipo has improved his shot or that AG's offense has improved or that Mario is for real until the games actually count.

It's kind of the fundamental reason that games that count are actually played.
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Re: The Payton Situation 

Post#95 » by Catledge » Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:08 am

ezzzp wrote:[snip]

...what about those actual statistical facts compared to the rest of the NBA point guards says he was "mostly back up quality"?


Can you do similar tables for TS% and PER? This isn't snark. I'd like to see how he ranks by those stats.
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Re: The Payton Situation 

Post#96 » by fateis007 » Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:26 am

Catledge wrote:
ezzzp wrote:[snip]

...what about those actual statistical facts compared to the rest of the NBA point guards says he was "mostly back up quality"?


Can you do similar tables for TS% and PER? This isn't snark. I'd like to see how he ranks by those stats.


Catledge this whole notion that Elfrid is a back up guard or not putting up good enough stats to man the starting point guard role is really odd.

I think you're absolutely wrong about him showing inconsistency. Post all star break, when most rookies hit a wall, he turned it up several notches and became more consistent. Considering point guard is a position that can require several years of grooming, to see him only get better as the season progressed really should be an obvious sign.

Lets look at his numbers. in 24 games (a pretty big sample size) , he averaged 11PT / 8AST / 5RB / 2STL to close out a season.

On what planet would you call that a backup? Let alone from a first year player still trying to find his way. I mean if he would have added a few more points, and a 1-2 more assist, and were talking allstar caliber point guard numbers.
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Re: The Payton Situation 

Post#97 » by ezzzp » Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:51 am

Catledge wrote:
ezzzp wrote:[snip]

...what about those actual statistical facts compared to the rest of the NBA point guards says he was "mostly back up quality"?


Can you do similar tables for TS% and PER? This isn't snark. I'd like to see how he ranks by those stats.


Of course its not...are those the stats you use to value what a good point guard is? or what impact on a game a player has?
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Re: The Payton Situation 

Post#98 » by Bensational » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:01 am

ezzzp wrote:
Bensational wrote:
So then Oladipo still hasn't improved as a shooter, Aaron Gordon still has no offensive game and Hezonja has yet to prove he can make it in this league? Or is it only poor performances that don't count in preseason/summer league?


That is correct.

We don't know if Oladipo has improved his shot or that AG's offense has improved or that Mario is for real until the games actually count.

It's kind of the fundamental reason that games that count are actually played.


Really? I'd still consider preseason a good sample for seeing changes in a player's game, and I'd say those guys have all shown those things. The games don't count, but they play them for a reason. Whether or not those levels can be maintained throughout the regular season is another question, but that's always a concern. Plenty of players still have hot starts in regular season but can't keep it up.
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Re: The Payton Situation 

Post#99 » by Orlwillbeback » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:02 am

Bruh

We play Russell Westbrook in 4 days

Lol
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Re: The Payton Situation 

Post#100 » by King Close » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:04 am

I honestly don't understand why people don't think Payton will start. I don't see anyone better than him at the PG spot. Is there something that I missed? He's had a bad pre-season/ summer league as he always does in games that don't matter. Is it him not playing? He's been hurt, why risk injuring your starting PG even more for games that don't count. Sure Shabazz has been great in pre-season. This is the same Elfrid Payton, who everyone was sticking up for in the ROY voting last year, correct? Dude doesn't play well in games that don't matter, we all know this by now but people say that he's regressed and doesn't deserve to start? The same people who say that now will be saying he will make the all-star game the season after the current.

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