12/30 Game Thread: Magic (18-13) vs Nets (9-22) 7PM

[zelenooq]

People here love accusing the refs of hating the Magic. So how many are going to step up and credit them for the ticky-tack call in our favor?

Just saying...

If you want to reference a call that went in our favor, I'd lean towards the timeout called by Jarrett Jack that ended up being a jump ball that AG won.

However, as promised, I did some research that wasn't clouded by my usual pro-Magic bias.

Here's a quick look at Magic games decided by 5 points or less.

Incorrect calls against Orlando in the last 5 minutes of games decided by 5 points or less.

Vs. Miami (12/26)
Vucevic (ORL) legally contests Wade's (MIA) jump shot attempt. Any "high-five" contact after the release is considered incidental.


Vs. Houston (12/23)
Howard (HOU) sets the screen on Oladipo (ORL), clamping his arms and limiting his ability to get over the screen

LATR shows that Harden (HOU) makes contact with Payton's (ORL) arm, causing him to lose control of the ball

Vs. Minnesota (12/1)
LaVine (MIN) makes contact with Oladipo's (ORL) arm during his side to side arm movement prior to the ball hitting LaVine's leg.

Vs. Minnesota (11/18)
Towns (MIN) makes contact with Nicholson's (ORL) arm that affects his layup attempt.

Vs. Toronto (11/6)
Lowry (TOR) sets the screen on Fournier (ORL) and does not give him the opportunity to avoid the contact.

Vs. OKC (10/30)
Westbrook (OKC) grabs Harris' (ORL) wrist and the contact causes him to lose the ball.

In a total of 12 games decided by 5 or less, 6 of these games (50%) had an incorrect call go against the Magic in the last 5 minutes according to the NBA.

In those 6 games, the Magic went 4-2.

Here's a list of calls that went in the Magic's favor in the last 5 minutes of a 5 point game.


Vs. OKC (10/30)
Durant's (OKC) contact with Harris (ORL) is incidental and does not affect his shooting movement.

Vs. Houston (11/4)
Dedmon (ORL) does not have his arms vertical and makes contact with Howard (HOU) as he attempts the layup.

Vs. Toronto (11/6)
Fournier (ORL) makes body to body contact with DeRozan (TOR) that causes him to lose the ball.

Harris (ORL) moves his pivot foot prior to releasing his dribble.

Vs. Phoenix (12/9)
Harris (ORL) makes contact with Bledsoe's (PHX) arm that affects his RSBQ on the drive to the basket

Vucevic (ORL) extends his leg as he sets the screen on Tucker (PHX) and does not give him room to avoid the contact.

Vucevic (ORL) continues to move as he sets the screen on Bledsoe (PHX) without giving him room to avoid the contact.

Vs. Atlanta (12/20)
Vucevic (ORL) extends his arms as he sets the screen on Bazemore (ATL) without giving him room to avoid the contact

So, according to the NBA, in the last 5 minutes of games decided by 5 points or less, Orlando had been hosed by 7 calls, and have received the benefit of 8 calls.


Conclusion - The refs don't hate the Magic, but still are dicks, and therefore should not be defended by anybody.

And Brook Lopez committed a clear foul.

Go Magic.

And 10/26 vs washington
Faul on hezonja and foul on harris last 5 mins

[Viper1500]

Can't help but feel like a complete dick towards Victor. The guy gives it his all every night.. just hope he can turn this around. Still my favorite player on the magic.

[zelenooq]

And one more thing,great teams wins when they are awful
That is difference between winners and lossers

[ezzzp]

Not sure why VO thinks anybody is judging his effort, work ethic, or defensive contributions. I don't think I have read a single post on this board from anyone that criticizes that. Maybe on social media that happens, but I haven't seen that here.

When he says don't judge him on wether his shots go in or don't. That I don't get.

How else do you analyze a player's effectiveness who has the 2nd highest USG and jacks up the 2nd most FGA's per game on the team?

Why wouldn't his decisions to continue to attempt the highlight play instead of making the easy more efficient play be open for criticism; especially for a player that has always struggled to be efficient and is now in the middle of a severe slump?

[NBlue]

Those crediting Dipo in this victory should take a glance at the stat sheet:

3-11 shooting
5 turnovers
3 assists.


I'm sorry -- that is not a good night. The stat sheet also fails to reflect a number of other poor decisions Vic made on offense that resulted in missed opportunities for his teAmates though not turnovers per se. Yes, certainly, give Dipo credit for his play in the 4th, but also we need to be honest about it whole game -- it was pretty bad overall.

[UCFJayBird]

http://official.nba.com/

Check out this link. The league posts a critique of the officiating in the last 5 minutes of close games.

The call against Brook Lopez will be regarded as a correct call.

Roughly 20 calls against us in the last 5 minutes of close games have been determined to be incorrect calls.

1) Without a star, the calls are rightfully (for the sake of the NBA brand) going to be slightly skewed against us and towards teams with stars.

2) Humans make mistakes. You have to provide us with a complete analysis of bad calls for / against all teams for this is carry any weight.

I seriously dont know why this is so hard to understand but ANY time you give preferential treatment to a player based on who they are, THAT IS MATCH FIXING!

End of story.

Favouring D Wade because of who he is is nothing but straight up cheating. Its incredible that the NBA has somehow convinced the mainstream audience that "superstar calls" are ok and a part of the game. If this happened anywhere else in the world, there would be an investigation and people would be facing criminal charges.

I find this SOOOO infuriating.

Completely agree. The NBA just seems 100% against cracking down on it in any way. In today's society where we can track every single call and compile the data and analyze which players are getting more favorable calls and which officials are favoring who, you'd think the NBA would use that to refine the officiating process. Same with players and flopping or exaggerating calls. But the NBA basically ignores it all and chalks it up as "part of the game". I just don't get it.

Human error was part of the game for decades. But technology allows us to reduce and mitigate it as much as possible, but for some reason major sports are strangely adverse to making the game more "pure". They'd rather leave the human element in for the sake of "tradition".

[BadMofoPimp]

1) Without a star, the calls are rightfully (for the sake of the NBA brand) going to be slightly skewed against us and towards teams with stars.

2) Humans make mistakes. You have to provide us with a complete analysis of bad calls for / against all teams for this is carry any weight.

I seriously dont know why this is so hard to understand but ANY time you give preferential treatment to a player based on who they are, THAT IS MATCH FIXING!

End of story.

Favouring D Wade because of who he is is nothing but straight up cheating. Its incredible that the NBA has somehow convinced the mainstream audience that "superstar calls" are ok and a part of the game. If this happened anywhere else in the world, there would be an investigation and people would be facing criminal charges.

I find this SOOOO infuriating.

Completely agree. The NBA just seems 100% against cracking down on it in any way. In today's society where we can track every single call and compile the data and analyze which players are getting more favorable calls and which officials are favoring who, you'd think the NBA would use that to refine the officiating process. Same with players and flopping or exaggerating calls. But the NBA basically ignores it all and chalks it up as "part of the game". I just don't get it.

Human error was part of the game for decades. But technology allows us to reduce and mitigate it as much as possible, but for some reason major sports are strangely adverse to making the game more "pure". They'd rather leave the human element in for the sake of "tradition".

If you recall, the Pistons went to (2) straight finals. The first year, they battled the refs and lost. The 2nd year, they came back very motivated and learned to play mistake free basketball to the point where the refs couldn't gift the Lakers the championship. It is all about the evolution of a team to the point where they trust each other and work their hardest to prove everyone all wrong. Magic are at the beginning stages of that process.

[Magic_Johnny12]

Those crediting Dipo in this victory should take a glance at the stat sheet:

3-11 shooting
5 turnovers
3 assists.


I'm sorry -- that is not a good night. The stat sheet also fails to reflect a number of other poor decisions Vic made on offense that resulted in missed opportunities for his teAmates though not turnovers per se. Yes, certainly, give Dipo credit for his play in the 4th, but also we need to be honest about it whole game -- it was pretty bad overall.

Agree 100%

Is it me or does anyone else feel as he showboats way too much for the way he's been playing as of late that seem to always result in a turnover instead of making the simple play? For ex. No look pass (which he does ALOT), shoots and just stands there as he's Jordan instead of attempting to follow the shot or am I looking into this too much?

[Destin]

Victor is trade bait IMO - His attitude and performance has sucked the past several games. He seems to be a crybaby because he is not the Superstar. I personally would like to see him gone. We'll do just fine without his crap attitude.

[OrlandO]

Those crediting Dipo in this victory should take a glance at the stat sheet:

3-11 shooting
5 turnovers
3 assists.


I'm sorry -- that is not a good night. The stat sheet also fails to reflect a number of other poor decisions Vic made on offense that resulted in missed opportunities for his teAmates though not turnovers per se. Yes, certainly, give Dipo credit for his play in the 4th, but also we need to be honest about it whole game -- it was pretty bad overall.

He struggled in the 1st half, but that 4th quarter performance certainly did contribute to the win in a big way... 9 pts (4 free throws), 4 rebs, +12 (+19 in 2nd half).

[UCFJayBird]

I seriously dont know why this is so hard to understand but ANY time you give preferential treatment to a player based on who they are, THAT IS MATCH FIXING!

End of story.

Favouring D Wade because of who he is is nothing but straight up cheating. Its incredible that the NBA has somehow convinced the mainstream audience that "superstar calls" are ok and a part of the game. If this happened anywhere else in the world, there would be an investigation and people would be facing criminal charges.

I find this SOOOO infuriating.

Completely agree. The NBA just seems 100% against cracking down on it in any way. In today's society where we can track every single call and compile the data and analyze which players are getting more favorable calls and which officials are favoring who, you'd think the NBA would use that to refine the officiating process. Same with players and flopping or exaggerating calls. But the NBA basically ignores it all and chalks it up as "part of the game". I just don't get it.

Human error was part of the game for decades. But technology allows us to reduce and mitigate it as much as possible, but for some reason major sports are strangely adverse to making the game more "pure". They'd rather leave the human element in for the sake of "tradition".

If you recall, the Pistons went to (2) straight finals. The first year, they battled the refs and lost. The 2nd year, they came back very motivated and learned to play mistake free basketball to the point where the refs couldn't gift the Lakers the championship. It is all about the evolution of a team to the point where they trust each other and work their hardest to prove everyone all wrong. Magic are at the beginning stages of that process.

Hog-freaking-wash. You think the Pistons just got so good in the second season that they played "mistake free basketball"? More like, they built up the reputation they needed in season 1 so that in season 2 the refs gave them the benefit of the call.

There's a reason "defensive teams" are allowed to play more aggressively. They have that reputation, so they get the benefit of the doubt from the refs that they are making good plays, regardless if they are or not. It takes a season or two for that reputation to be built, especially if a team has been known as a weaker defense with younger players for a few years.

If the Magic win 50 games this season, next year they'll get the benefit of the doubt a whole lot more next year. Not because they're playing so much better defense, but because the refs will have that reputation in the back of their minds. Same reason Dwyane Wade will get a call driving to the rim that a rookie won't.

[OrlandoDream]

Any Update on Elfrids situation? I hope he isn't out for too long but getting healthy is priority.

[NBlue]

Those crediting Dipo in this victory should take a glance at the stat sheet:

3-11 shooting
5 turnovers
3 assists.


I'm sorry -- that is not a good night. The stat sheet also fails to reflect a number of other poor decisions Vic made on offense that resulted in missed opportunities for his teAmates though not turnovers per se. Yes, certainly, give Dipo credit for his play in the 4th, but also we need to be honest about it whole game -- it was pretty bad overall.

He struggled in the 1st half, but that 4th quarter performance certainly did contribute to the win in a big way... 9 pts (4 free throws), 4 rebs, +12 (+19 in 2nd half).

I agree he played well in the 4th -- no question about it. But overall, he is one of the main reasons we had to come from behind. And if you look at his totals overall -- they were pretty bad. If we are playing a team other than the second worst in the East its difficult to believe we have a shot to win. Moreover, the +/- stats are always problematic. I think they have value over a large sample size of many games but within one game they are often not representative.

Those stats will simply not get it done against a decent team. I'm sure glad he played well in the 4th quarter and I hope that propels him to a good game in Washington on Friday and beyond. However, if he performs as he did in the first three quarters (with heavy minutes) its unlikely we will have an opportunity to be in the game in the 4th...

[OrlandO]

Those crediting Dipo in this victory should take a glance at the stat sheet:

3-11 shooting
5 turnovers
3 assists.


I'm sorry -- that is not a good night. The stat sheet also fails to reflect a number of other poor decisions Vic made on offense that resulted in missed opportunities for his teAmates though not turnovers per se. Yes, certainly, give Dipo credit for his play in the 4th, but also we need to be honest about it whole game -- it was pretty bad overall.

He struggled in the 1st half, but that 4th quarter performance certainly did contribute to the win in a big way... 9 pts (4 free throws), 4 rebs, +12 (+19 in 2nd half).

I agree he played well in the 4th -- no question about it. But overall, he is one of the main reasons we had to come from behind. And if you look at his totals overall -- they were pretty bad. If we are playing a team other than the second worst in the East its difficult to believe we have a shot to win. Moreover, the +/- stats are always problematic. I think they have value over a large sample size of many games but within one game they are often not representative.

Those stats will simply not get it done against a decent team. I'm sure glad he played well in the 4th quarter and I hope that propels him to a good game in Washington on Friday and beyond. However, if he performs as he did in the first three quarters (with heavy minutes) its unlikely we will have an opportunity to be in the game in the 4th...

I agree we probably don't get it done against a better team, but I don't put that all on Dipo as most of our team looked way off and played with low energy in the 1st half... Fournier 1/7, Vuc was 2/5, Harris 3/7, dedmon 1/3, napier 1/3, Hezonja 0/1, Payton 0/0, Smith 0/0. We definitely looked like a team that didn't know what to do with their primary PG hobbled and eventually benched. As for Victor, imo he was only really bad in the 2nd quarter where he was 0/4 fg with 2 tov... he only played 3 minutes in the 1st quarter and was 1/1 fg, played 6 minutes in the 3rd quarter and he wasn't really doing anything to hurt the team (just missed a couple shots, led team with +7), and of course he played the entire 4th quarter and was huge for us.

[NEM]

Victor is trade bait IMO - His attitude and performance has sucked the past several games. He seems to be a crybaby because he is not the Superstar. I personally would like to see him gone. We'll do just fine without his crap attitude.

I'm so surprised that you want Oladipo traded.

I agree that he seems to have a bad attitude since moving to ththe bench, I think he will eventually accept it and adjust to it. He has struggled on offense as well, so that may have something to do with him always looking like someone killed his cat. I think he will figure it out before the all star break, which would be huge for us because February and March will be tough. We will need all hands on deck.

[UCFJayBird]

Curious: Why do people think he's had a bad attitude since moving to the bench? I haven't paid attention post game interviews but during the game i don't recall seeing anything.

[shadrock]

The funny thing is that if it were to be compared side by side, the issues the fans have with his game are exactly the same as the issues he has with his game. And ultimately both side want to see him to turn it around. Its just not what you want to hear i guess but he already knows it.

[shadrock]

Curious: Why do people think he's had a bad attitude since moving to the bench? I haven't paid attention post game interviews but during the game i don't recall seeing anything.

I think he seems demoralised more than anything. I havent seen any bad attitude.

[shadrock]

I seriously dont know why this is so hard to understand but ANY time you give preferential treatment to a player based on who they are, THAT IS MATCH FIXING!

End of story.

Favouring D Wade because of who he is is nothing but straight up cheating. Its incredible that the NBA has somehow convinced the mainstream audience that "superstar calls" are ok and a part of the game. If this happened anywhere else in the world, there would be an investigation and people would be facing criminal charges.

I find this SOOOO infuriating.

Completely agree. The NBA just seems 100% against cracking down on it in any way. In today's society where we can track every single call and compile the data and analyze which players are getting more favorable calls and which officials are favoring who, you'd think the NBA would use that to refine the officiating process. Same with players and flopping or exaggerating calls. But the NBA basically ignores it all and chalks it up as "part of the game". I just don't get it.

Human error was part of the game for decades. But technology allows us to reduce and mitigate it as much as possible, but for some reason major sports are strangely adverse to making the game more "pure". They'd rather leave the human element in for the sake of "tradition".

If you recall, the Pistons went to (2) straight finals. The first year, they battled the refs and lost. The 2nd year, they came back very motivated and learned to play mistake free basketball to the point where the refs couldn't gift the Lakers the championship. It is all about the evolution of a team to the point where they trust each other and work their hardest to prove everyone all wrong. Magic are at the beginning stages of that process.

See that to me is precisely the problem i have with it. I mean, complete credit to the Pistons, they were smart enough to figure out how it works and accept it and outsmart it, but in my view, why should they have to? It shouldnt be rigged like this towards certain teams or certain players. EVER. I understand the NBA's motive for it, but i just think its wrong.

[rcklsscognition]

I still dont buy the ref conspiracy. There are so many rules that even most nba players dont understand. I think is quite possible that people that dont foul understand the rules and have a high iq and players that draw fouls do the same.