Emergency GT: Grizzlies @ Magic

[Blue_and_Whte]

Fournier may not be a ball stopper per say but if you're watching games you cant sit there with a straight face and tell me Fournier doesnt look off AG all the time.

Well, if you put it that way, one could say Fournier looks off every player most of the time. Then again, every player looks off every other player most of the time. I bet one could say the same exact thing about Gordon.

Under a microscope you can say that about a lot of guys not just on this team but on most NBA teams. However, you have people looking for an excuse to discredit statistical facts because they want the shiny new rookie to play. I honestly don't care which guy generates wins for us because I don't have a personal attachment. As of right now, the numbers don't lie and there's nothing anyone can do about it except complain about player x not passing to player b enough.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Mario has potential but cmon man Fournier isn't as "selfish" as you are saying ! For the most part Fournier makes good plays and I actually like that sometime he forces the issue on offense. And to say that Mario would start over Fournier in San Antonio is hilarious , none would start and at this point if San Antonio had to choose which to start it would be Fournier because he is currently better than Mario . I understand Fournier has some weaknesses but he is still growing as a player as well . Having said that I'm excited about Mario and can't wait to see him keep improving . Mario has already gotten a lot better and will continue to get better . Just got to have patience no need to hate on Fournier because you are being impatient with Mario !

I like Fournier and I like his long term potential. However, I think last night was emblematic of his play for the Magic over the last month or so. He put up generally decent numbers and was clearly helpful to the Magic cause. However, his defense was awful -- allowing Matt Barnes to blow up in the first quarter and then playing rather poorly on that end for the rest of the game as well. Even on offense he shot a rather poor percentage (6-15) and for the 12th time in the last 14 games his assists failed to exceed his turnovers. For someone who is just a spot up shooter and not asked to create that would not be terrible but Evan has the ball in his hands so much you would expect him to make more plays for his teammates. Also his +/- was again amongst the lowest on the team. Look, I'm not trying to kill Evan -- I like him and I like the leadership he has shown as well. But he does have some serious flaws in his game. Right now I continue to think Mario will develop into the superior option and based on Mario's play versus that of Evan over the past several weeks I would be inclined to give Mario more minutes than he is currently getting at the expense of Evan as well.

I agree with you. But at this current stage Evan is the better player. I don't mean to say Mario cant transition and even exceed what Evan can do, but I'm one of the ones that thinks winning games and thus showing improvement is more important to attracting key free agents than whether or not Mario is getting 30 mins a night or who's looking off who. I think that's petty and insignificant compared to the big picture.

[OrlChamps2030]

Scott Skiles is our supreme leader and can do no wrong. Aaron Gordon and Mario Hezonja are spoiled and lazy millenials. Alex Martins is a savvy business man with great hair. Elfrid Payton sucks. Evan Fournier does no wrong. Jason Smith long twos are great.

Am I doing it right guys??

[Tayswagzzz]

Scott Skiles is our supreme leader and can do no wrong. Aaron Gordon and Mario Hezonja are spoiled and lazy millenials. Alex Martins is a savvy business man with great hair. Elfrid Payton sucks. Evan Fournier does no wrong. Jason Smith long twos are great.

Am I doing it right guys??

Alex Martins is that you?

[BadMofoPimp]

Fournier may not be a ball stopper per say but if you're watching games you cant sit there with a straight face and tell me Fournier doesnt look off AG all the time.

Well, if you put it that way, one could say Fournier looks off every player most of the time. Then again, every player looks off every other player most of the time. I bet one could say the same exact thing about Gordon.

Under a microscope you can say that about a lot of guys not just on this team but on most NBA teams. However, you have people looking for an excuse to discredit statistical facts because they want the shiny new rookie to play. I honestly don't care which guy generates wins for us because I don't have a personal attachment. As of right now, the numbers don't lie and there's nothing anyone can do about it except complain about player x not passing to player b enough.

What it all comes down to is "Selective Reception." They just remember the plays where he didn't pass to the open guy, but completely don't recall the plays where he passed to the open guy. For those of us that play basketball, it is easy in the flow of the game to not look for the pass first. Especially, if you are not a natural pass first point guard. Same could be said about Lebron. He can average 6 assists per game and still be blamed by short sited fans who say he don't pass.

[Mc-o]

Go Magic!!! hilarious the negativity after a win! Lets be happy we won for once!!! I hope we whoop the pistons tomorrow!

[Tayswagzzz]

Well, if you put it that way, one could say Fournier looks off every player most of the time. Then again, every player looks off every other player most of the time. I bet one could say the same exact thing about Gordon.

Under a microscope you can say that about a lot of guys not just on this team but on most NBA teams. However, you have people looking for an excuse to discredit statistical facts because they want the shiny new rookie to play. I honestly don't care which guy generates wins for us because I don't have a personal attachment. As of right now, the numbers don't lie and there's nothing anyone can do about it except complain about player x not passing to player b enough.

What it all comes down to is "Selective Reception." They just remember the plays where he didn't pass to the open guy, but completely don't recall the plays where he passed to the open guy. For those of us that play basketball, it is easy in the flow of the game to not look for the pass first. Especially, if you are not a natural pass first point guard. Same could be said about Lebron. He can average 6 assists per game and still be blamed by short sited fans who say he don't pass.

Stop speaking logically, we all like our pitchforks.

[ezzzp]

People are focusing too much on their individual stats and are completely diminishing the fact that team performs much better when Mario is inserted instead of Fournier at the 3. Just look at the NetRtg difference between this 2 3-man lineups.

Payton-Oladipo-Fournier : ORTG -101.4 , DRTG - 108.5, NetRtg - 7.1 (648 mins )

Payton-Oladipo-Hezonja : ORTG - 113.5 , DRTG - 98.8 , NetRtg +14.7 (169 mins)

It's time to admit that Fournier is not a long term solution for small forward position.

3 man lineups are not measuring what you say they are measuring...what do the numbers show when you use the starting 5 lineups? ...and for the entire season.

What are they measuring than?

Elf-Dipo-Evan-AG-Vucevic : ORTG -104.2, DRTG-1O8.4 (202 mins)

Elf-Dipo-Mario-AG-Vucevic: ORTG - 123.7 , DRTG- 97.8 (69 mins)

So difference is even wider... Also 4 man lineup of Elfrid-Dipo- Mario-AG is one of the most successful ones on this team.

Its measuring that in those 69 minutes, which are less than 0.4% of the Magic's total 18,705 minutes this season, those five players produced those results.

But all minutes aren't alike + player roles and game conditions are all very different. Most importantly, line up measurements distort tremendously the lower the amount.

If you apply your usage and interpretation of line-up measurements; then the Magic's best lineup - by far - must then be the one led by Shabazz Napier - since it created the best differentials on the team all season long....an incredible 34.8 point differential and a 15% eFG difference! OMG lets start Shabazz Napier!!!

[ezzzp]

lol Fournier is notorious for **** up the offense by not making the simple correct pass when it's there if you actually watch the games. Stats won't tell you that. Thankfully he's shooting extremely well or he'd look absolutely horrible out there.

The stats say he is 3d on the team in total points created off of assists behind Payton and Oladipo; and he is also 3d in Adjusted Assists (which combines Assists / Potential Assists / FT Assists / Secondary assists)...so if he sucks at making the correct pass then the rest of the team must be absolutely horrendous.

If stats could tell you everything that happens on the floor we wouldn't even need to watch games.

If every human had robotic objectivity then we wouldn't need stats to help generate a consensus of what it is we are all seeing with our eyes and subjectively interpreting.

[SOUL]

Yeah, we're all making things up, the same 3-4 people that always go against the grain and defend things that are quite obvious when you watch the game are beacons of truth on this forum and we're all just haters that should enjoy the win and shut up because that's how you take in basketball games!

If that was the case we'd all be blaming Jason Smith or Dedmon or Nicholson or anybody else that has been in the league more than Fournier. I did not utter one bad word about Fournier when he had his hot start and these problems didn't arise.

He can still fix his "problems" because he is young and he won't be playing for a contract next year. It doesn't mean they aren't there. Frankly, I'd have more respect for some of you if you would admit he does it but I will say some of you could work for the Underwoods in House of Cards for all of the denial and coverups that you continuously do.

Oladipo will do it sometimes, AG gets horse blinders sometimes, Payton gets too aggressive at times, Vuc will ignore people to get what he thinks is a better shot sometimes, but none at the level of Fournier because he does it at a higher frequency and part of it is a compliment because he draws SO much attention that if he was aware of it, the simple passes he could be making for easy buckets would open up the offense way more.

If we keep Fournier and he continues to play like that and we go up against actual offenses that have learned to pass in those situations, we will lose every time.

[NBlue]

Yeah, we're all making things up, the same 3-4 people that always go against the grain and defend things that are quite obvious when you watch the game are beacons of truth on this forum and we're all just haters that should enjoy the win and shut up because that's how you take in basketball games!

If that was the case we'd all be blaming Jason Smith or Dedmon or Nicholson or anybody else that has been in the league more than Fournier. I did not utter one bad word about Fournier when he had his hot start and these problems didn't arise.

He can still fix his "problems" because he is young and he won't be playing for a contract next year. It doesn't mean they aren't there. Frankly, I'd have more respect for some of you if you would admit he does it but I will say some of you could work for the Underwoods in House of Cards for all of the denial and coverups that you continuously do.

Oladipo will do it sometimes, AG gets horse blinders sometimes, Payton gets too aggressive at times, Vuc will ignore people to get what he thinks is a better shot sometimes, but none at the level of Fournier because he does it at a higher frequency and part of it is a compliment because he draws SO much attention that if he was aware of it, the simple passes he could be making for easy buckets would open up the offense way more.

If we keep Fournier and he continues to play like that and we go up against actual offenses that have learned to pass in those situations, we will lose every time.

Amen.

[SOUL]

His assist rate per 48 is pretty low, in the 20's-30's (SG rank) and .4 above Hezonja who has 15 less minutes per game. He's lower than DeMar Derozan and Sasha Vujavic and Jamal Crawford.

Stats aren't going to show hockey assists, or the two dribbles too much that puts him into a bad position and throws the offense out of wack. It isn't going to show the 3v1 fast breaks where he will ignore people and will either get blocked or get a foul call - it might even show as 2-2 FT's for him but we know what the correct play is if it's an easier play to finish.

Fournier is a great scorer and is good at a lot of things on the court Him realizing these faults will make me want to keep him and play him big minutes.

[fklt]

Scott Skiles is our supreme leader and can do no wrong. Aaron Gordon and Mario Hezonja are spoiled and lazy millenials. Alex Martins is a savvy business man with great hair. Elfrid Payton sucks. Evan Fournier does no wrong. Jason Smith long twos are great.

Am I doing it right guys??

skiles doing ok. gordon is the guy that I'm most excited about in the whole league. mario is not ready. alex martins and his hair sucks. payton is a young pg with tremendous potential who had a disappointing year during adjusting to more rigid systems. fournier's assist rate is below average for his position and that's a knack on his game, yet we'd be a much worse team without him right now. jason smith long twos were great until vuc went down and his role absorbed vuc's and then imploded.

these views are totally independent of each other and pigeonholing them is unwarranted.

[ezzzp]

[j-ragg]

His assist rate per 48 is pretty low, in the 20's-30's (SG rank) and .4 above Hezonja who has 15 less minutes per game. He's lower than DeMar Derozan and Sasha Vujavic and Jamal Crawford.

Stats aren't going to show hockey assists, or the two dribbles too much that puts him into a bad position and throws the offense out of wack. It isn't going to show the 3v1 fast breaks where he will ignore people and will either get blocked or get a foul call - it might even show as 2-2 FT's for him but we know what the correct play is if it's an easier play to finish.

Fournier is a great scorer and is good at a lot of things on the court Him realizing these faults will make me want to keep him and play him big minutes.

Preach it. Guy has great offensive talent but he almost exaggeratedly looks for his own too much.


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[ezzzp]

His assist rate per 48 is pretty low, in the 20's-30's (SG rank) and .4 above Hezonja who has 15 less minutes per game. He's lower than DeMar Derozan and Sasha Vujavic and Jamal Crawford.

Stats aren't going to show hockey assists, or the two dribbles too much that puts him into a bad position and throws the offense out of wack. It isn't going to show the 3v1 fast breaks where he will ignore people and will either get blocked or get a foul call - it might even show as 2-2 FT's for him but we know what the correct play is if it's an easier play to finish.

Fournier is a great scorer and is good at a lot of things on the court Him realizing these faults will make me want to keep him and play him big minutes.

Why are you comparing him in per48? and vs guards where passing is much more frequent? he's been playing primarily as a forward except for the stretch of games when Oladipo went to the bench and even then he often shifted over.

....also assist rate (per 48) proportions to minutes so being slightly better than Hezonja, who is supposed to be a willing and capable passer...doesn't that show the opposite of what you are trying to imply?

I watch every game, and I rarely post in game threads so that I can pay attention to the game. I don't need stats to show me that after Vuc, Fournier's offense is the primary offensive reason that Magic stay in games.

My eye test also tells me that he is most often the player that makes shots at times when the Magic need a shot. His late shot clock percentages add to that and show me that when the offense isn't breaking through, its his scoring versatility and efficiency in those situations that saves many possessions...and you want him to pass out of those?

Stats and my eye test tell me that he is the best finisher in transition the Magic have (top 87th percentile in the NBA). The rest of the Magic guys that regularly find themselves in transition play are all below the 60th percentile in the league and blow fast breaks a lot. link For him to pass out of a fast break to what are much worse finishers makes zero sense.

[Def Swami]

Again, it's hard to hate a guy shooting 45/40/83 on the season. I'd say a majority of Fournier's plays have been coming off penetration from either Oladipo or Payton or swings to the weak side where he can attack an off-balance defense. And that's his forte! The one thing we can give Skiles credit for is actually putting Fournier in a position that maximizes his ability as a shooter and slasher. His role is to score and when he gets the ball with the defense scrambling, I don't blame him for trying to find a way to score. 58% true shooting, guys. The only other guy on the team more efficient is Dedmon at 60%. He's not hurting this team offensively.

[MagicStarwipe]

Again, no one has a problem with his shooting. It's his at times piss poor team play. It's the area of his game that he can improve on the most, considering he won't grow or become more athletic. It's also a big part of what separates good teams from bad teams, which is the most important point in all of this. It's about the success of the team, not the success of Evan Fournier. Teams play better when they are playing D, trusting their teammates and sharing the ball, and this team is no exception. Fournier needs to buy in to that if he's going to have the ball in his hands so much.

[Bensational]

Again, no one has a problem with his shooting. It's his at times piss poor team play. It's the area of his game that he can improve on the most, considering he won't grow or become more athletic. It's also a big part of what separates good teams from bad teams, which is the most important point in all of this. It's about the success of the team, not the success of Evan Fournier. Teams play better when they are playing D, trusting their teammates and sharing the ball, and this team is no exception. Fournier needs to buy in to that if he's going to have the ball in his hands so much.

I think the double standards are obvious in that regard. If Mario had that weakness, it would be said that he's a rookie and he needs to develop more and he's not ready.

With Fournier, they still use the argument that he's young and developing, too, but when you point out what he needs to work on they come up with a litany of excuses as to why he's beyond developing that part of his game.

A lot of posters want to appear impartial and all about the wins but really they're just pushing another agenda, which seems to be "don't question anything. We're obviously doing everything just right because look at our record!"

[BadMofoPimp]

3 man lineups are not measuring what you say they are measuring...what do the numbers show when you use the starting 5 lineups? ...and for the entire season.

What are they measuring than?

Elf-Dipo-Evan-AG-Vucevic : ORTG -104.2, DRTG-1O8.4 (202 mins)

Elf-Dipo-Mario-AG-Vucevic: ORTG - 123.7 , DRTG- 97.8 (69 mins)

So difference is even wider... Also 4 man lineup of Elfrid-Dipo- Mario-AG is one of the most successful ones on this team.

Its measuring that in those 69 minutes, which are less than 0.4% of the Magic's total 18,705 minutes this season, those five players produced those results.

But all minutes aren't alike + player roles and game conditions are all very different. Most importantly, line up measurements distort tremendously the lower the amount.

If you apply your usage and interpretation of line-up measurements; then the Magic's best lineup - by far - must then be the one led by Shabazz Napier - since it created the best differentials on the team all season long....an incredible 34.8 point differential and a 15% eFG difference! OMG lets start Shabazz Napier!!!

Were those 69 minutes versus Philly or Spurs?