2016 Official Speculation Thread: Episode V - The Preseason Strikes Back

[Orlwillbeback]

?????!!!!!!

Portland didn't tank to get either Lillard or McCollum!

McCollum was late lottery and the Lillard pick they got from Billy King who did a lot of the same stupid **** that Hennigan has been doing.

[jezzer45]

We probably had the worse luck out of all the rebuilds lately. We have promising talent but that can take you absolutely no where if you don't hedge your bets with some quality vets.

[Def Swami]

You cant overinvest yourselves in just one avenue during the rebuild, I would have preferred getting players that are ready to go through trades and free agency rather than this kindergarten service we've been running.

I'm sure you would have, but as previously illustrated, it doesn't work that way anymore. Every single team, even the biggest players in free agency like the Lakers have to rebuild through the draft now. It's just how the NBA is.

That not what Portland and Boston did.

Feel like you're undermining how much the Magic have used trades and tried to use free agency in addition to the draft.

They did acquire Vucevic, Harris, and Fournier through trades, all who are solid, starting-caliber contributors. We've used the draft to get Oladipo, Payton (I know, via trade but on draft night), Gordon, and Hezonja. Seems like we've made attempts to use money in free agency in the past, but it didn't necessarily work out, including the near-miss on Paul Millsap. This season was more varied and included trades to acquire more veteran leadership in Serge Ibaka and Jodie Meeks, and free agency to shore up the front court and depth, including Bismack Biyombo, Jeff Green, and DJ Augustine. That's a pretty varied approach to get to where we are today.

The Celtics equally used trades to acquire a good chunk of their crew, including Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, Tyler Zeller, and Jonas Jerebko. They have used the draft to get Avery Bradley, Marcus Smart, Kelly Olynyk, and Jaylen Brown. They haven't really spent a ton of money before this season, besides that ugly contract that they gave Amir Johnson last year. They made the playoffs and were able to make a pitch to a bigger free agent in Horford. That's the next step for the Magic.

I actually kind of dislike what the Blazers did this off-season. Nevertheless, they've used the draft to get their 2 best players in Damian Lillard and CJ McCollum. Allen Crabbe, who should be a starter, and Meyers Leonard were also drafted. They signed Al-Farouq Aminu and Ed Davis last season, and then signed Evan Turner to a $70 million deal. They found a nice young player via trade in Mason Plumlee last year as well.

All 3 of those teams used a variety of ways to get to where they are. My biggest knocks on the rebuild haven't been the strategy, but more so the execution at times. Having 4 coaches in almost 2 years for a young team when you're invested in player development has led to so much inconsistency in message and play. That's a failure on everyone's part, from Hennigan to Martins. Secondly, Hennigan did a decent job of collecting good young players, whether it's via trade or draft, but that led a poor mix of skillsets that didn't complement one another. That in itself isn't a huge sticking point for me as much as how we went about fixing it. I still believe we cut losses with players too soon or for too little return, including Moe Harkless and Tobias Harris and Andrew Nicholson. I concede we needed more value out of Tobias Harris. Using the extra cap space created by that move on Biyombo helps ease my disdain with that trade. I think there is some merit to those thinking we overpaid for Ibaka; Oladipo for Ibaka straight up is a more fair deal in most instances, but I found almost no value in the 11th pick and Ilyasova this year that it didn't really bother me that we sent those in the deal for a player most of us have coveted for the last few years. Overall, I think we could have done a little better job of maximizing the value of our assets, but I think the team is in a good place right now with the right mix of veterans and youth and a better coach at the helm.

With regard to your "kindergarten service", not sure if that's in reference to quality of play or an allusion to just how young our team has been, but the Blazers and Celtics were 3rd and 5th youngest teams in the NBA last year, respectively. The Magic were 6th.

[PennytoShaq]

Great post. There are arguments made out of pure emotion, and then there are actual facts. Once we at least argue based on actual facts, people will start to understand that the Magic's process has been executed pretty well, considering how bad of a situation Rob inherited.

Furthermore, our projected lead scorer this season, Fournier, was acquired in a widely panned trade. That was one of Rob's best moves. Add to the fact that he retained him for less than the perceived market value, and you would think that people who complain would at least applaud that. But for some reason they can't.

[NavalAviator94]

Well, most of your problems with Hennigan has to do with the moves he made, right?

I'm saying in an ideal world, the roster would make more sense to you if the Magic got what they wanted.. which doesn't always happen. Once Porzingis was taken then we had to do a series of moves that lead to the Oladipo deal, including one move that has Skiles handprints all over it.

I'm only debating you on Payton / Saric being the worst deal. It's entirely too premature to say that. There is physical evidence of Ilya/BJ being gone from the team as is Ayon, which are two trades that I think we could've gotten better value return wise. We gave up more than we usually would for Payton, but at least he holds value to us.

Ohh we HAD to make the moves we did after Porzingis was taken in the 2015 draft?

Why is that?

Why did we have HAVE to make the moves we did since then?

Earlier you even state we were FORCED to make the moves we did after Porzingis taken?

Did someone someone put a gun to Rob's head and make him do what he did?

You are still largely basing this opinion of yours on videos and Hennigan's reported comments from the media. That inherently is flawed.

The Magic were not forced to make any of these moves, we made them because I believe Hennigan over relies on the draft because other gms do not see him on an equal footing when discussing trades or in free agency.

But isn't that what teams have to do who are building through the draft?

[Orlwillbeback]

Well, most of your problems with Hennigan has to do with the moves he made, right?

I'm saying in an ideal world, the roster would make more sense to you if the Magic got what they wanted.. which doesn't always happen. Once Porzingis was taken then we had to do a series of moves that lead to the Oladipo deal, including one move that has Skiles handprints all over it.

I'm only debating you on Payton / Saric being the worst deal. It's entirely too premature to say that. There is physical evidence of Ilya/BJ being gone from the team as is Ayon, which are two trades that I think we could've gotten better value return wise. We gave up more than we usually would for Payton, but at least he holds value to us.

Ohh we HAD to make the moves we did after Porzingis was taken in the 2015 draft?

Why is that?

Why did we have HAVE to make the moves we did since then?

Earlier you even state we were FORCED to make the moves we did after Porzingis taken?

Did someone someone put a gun to Rob's head and make him do what he did?

You are still largely basing this opinion of yours on videos and Hennigan's reported comments from the media. That inherently is flawed.

The Magic were not forced to make any of these moves, we made them because I believe Hennigan over relies on the draft because other gms do not see him on an equal footing when discussing trades or in free agency.

But isn't that what teams have to do who are building through the draft?

No

[NavalAviator94]

Ohh we HAD to make the moves we did after Porzingis was taken in the 2015 draft?

Why is that?

Why did we have HAVE to make the moves we did since then?

Earlier you even state we were FORCED to make the moves we did after Porzingis taken?

Did someone someone put a gun to Rob's head and make him do what he did?

You are still largely basing this opinion of yours on videos and Hennigan's reported comments from the media. That inherently is flawed.

The Magic were not forced to make any of these moves, we made them because I believe Hennigan over relies on the draft because other gms do not see him on an equal footing when discussing trades or in free agency.

But isn't that what teams have to do who are building through the draft?

No

I''ll disagree. You don't have to look any further than the Mav's to see that building through FA, without young guys coming up, is a recipe for mediocre play. To the extreme you have the Nets.

The reality is you have to build a foundation through the draft and have prospects developing to offset higher salaries. From there you have a number of options, and we are just beginning to see those options come to fruition.

[PennytoShaq]

I have yet to see an alternative plan for the Magic posted that is actually realistic. Probably because it doesn't exist. End of the day, the Magic would be further along in the build if the lotto balls bounced in their favor and they got Porzingis, but Serge is a real nice piece to have at PF.

To say other GMs don't see Rob on equal footing in trades is one of the more uniformed, laughable things I have read here. I hope this place doesn't turn into the Orlando Sentinel comments section.

[SOUL]

The issue is you're not really providing a real alternative besides saying he should've kept Oladipo and Ilyasova. That alone is not making this team a better roster. Of course you're allowed to disagree with the direction of the team, but it's sort of like a presidential candidate saying "I hate this (law, rule, program) but I have no alternative or solution" which makes it hard to debate when the talking point is so broad.

And when I say forced, I'm not saying a gun was at his head. I'm saying there are contingency plans when we whiff on certain players, although the Harris move is as close as you're going to get to having your hands tied as a GM.

So no, I mean, you're arguing the use the word "forced" when that's not my point. He can run a team of 15 point guards, he's not forced to follow any sort of rule. But when we don't acquire players we plan(ned) on getting, he's much more likely to pull a move like trading Oladipo and acquiring defense and depth at the forward positions because we had two shooting guards on the team that project to be way better shooters than Oladipo on a team starved for shooting.

Your issue with the team is stemming from moves made in years past, and this team (this year more than ever) is different than any other team we've had in the past. What I'm confused about is you don't like the talent we've amassed, but you also don't like the new players we've gotten either, and you're also sad about the players we let go despite thinking that as a team those players don't work together.

If it's simply a "replace Payton with Teague thing and we're all good" issue, I don't know what to say other than that's putting a band-aid on a wound while really mismanaging assets (that's when the Saric, pick thing comes into the spotlight) and giving up on a 22 year old who was injured a lot of the year while playing under the wrong coach for our team.

Bonus: Payton, besides his defense which dropped from the teens as a rookie to lower 20's as far as point guards go, had better efficiency stats across the board in less minutes than he did his rookie year. It wasn't an issue of huge regression like people make it out to be, it's more he didn't take the huge leap people anticipated.

[Orlwillbeback]

I''ll disagree. You don't have to look any further than the Mav's to see that building through FA, without young guys coming up, is a recipe for mediocre play. To the extreme you have the Nets.

The reality is you have to build a foundation through the draft and have prospects developing to offset higher salaries. From there you have a number of options, and we are just beginning to see those options come to fruition.

Lol

They won a championship 5 years ago you dingbat.

Also, The Miami Heat championship teams were essentially totally formed by getting stars in fa.

[Orlwillbeback]

What I am doing is actually healthier than what you guys are doing, which is just ignoring the problem and not being honest with yourselves about the team.

[SOUL]

What I am doing is actually healthier than what you guys are doing, which is just ignoring the problem and not being honest with yourselves about the team.

Most people think we're a fringe playoff team. How is that not a healthy or rational opinion?

[DiplomaticMagic]

I'm just ready to watch some games of our new team

[Orlwillbeback]

What I am doing is actually healthier than what you guys are doing, which is just ignoring the problem and not being honest with yourselves about the team.

Most people think we're a fringe playoff team. How is that not a healthy or rational opinion?

I just have a hard time believing you guys are truly be happy with how the team has performed the last four years. If I would have told you four years ago right when we had traded Howard that the team was about to embark on 3 straight 20 something win seasons, one 30 something win season and then that following summer we trade the face of the franchise and 2 other assets for Serge Ibaka with one year left on his deal, how would you respond?

[SOUL]

Can continue this, but can somebody make a new thread?

Thanks!

[SOUL]

Can continue this, but can somebody make a new thread?

Thanks!