I got a little depressed watching Thunder vs. 76ers

[KrAzY3]

I'm not really trying to pile on the bandwagon, but I have tried to kind of limit pessimism until we saw some actually basketball being played.

The first thing to note would be the starters both teams had that came via the Magic. Oladipo didn't have a great game, but we know what he can do and he was starting for the Thunder, as was Sabonis. Sabonis in his first NBA game didn't look that great either (he looked about like Hezonja), but considering he was basically a throw-in, that kind of irritates me. They got two starters (and a guy who gave them 20 minutes) for a disgruntled free-agent to be. It always seemed like an overpay and I still question if Sabonis was a necessary part of that trade.

On the 76ers side, we saw Dario Saric give a rather uninspiring performance, but he was a starter. As a whole though, the 76ers to me at least look like a team whose (even with their #1 overall pick out) tanking and rebuilding has started to come to fruition. They're young and talented with future assets that were not on the court. Of course it is worth noting that the NBA didn't like what they did, and they did run off their GM, but it's hard to argue with the assets he stockpiled during "the Process".

Now, while I'm not trying to question trading Saric away, it does highlight the moment I realized that Orlando was getting off track with their rebuild. Orlando was nowhere near being done with tanking, they were nowhere near having the young talent to content, yet they were trying to fill holes and trade up to get a point guard? Why? What was so important about having a good point guard while you're tanking? It just signaled something was off about the way things were headed. Up until then we'd seen some brilliant trades, but this to me signaled a loss of focus.

The things to come after that weren't really surprising. Firing the coach (for tanking too good?), hiring Skiles, trading away Tobias for cap space they don't really need, it became clear that Orlando was trying to change gears, even if they weren't ready for that yet. Now though? Now I see a team that has lost some of their stockpiled assets, while from my perspective they could have and should have had more than they did in the first place. Do I see a contender? Do I see even a path to being a contender (without adding a max free agent)? I don't... knowing what I know now, the pressure to win now did seem to come from above, so I can't even blame the GM for this aborted rebuild.

However, I do see the Thunder with two former Magic guys as starters. I do see a 76ers team that looks like a contender in the near future (of course they fired their GM to, but at least the fans seem to get the point of all that). I just wish the Magic could have stuck to trying to stockpile assets a bit longer (and yes I do know the balls didn't exactly bounce their way), I think they'd have been better off for it. I think this team can win some games, but I don't see the path to greatness unfortunately.

[Jameerthefear]

I think the difference is that when Philly came out and had the intention of tanking, they didn't half ass it. They bottomed out and tanked HARD. When they didn't see the progression in their young guys like MCW, they got rid of them while their value was high and they made those little moves to keep stockpiling picks. The rest of it has really been a lot of unlucky stuff. Lets look at the 14-15 for instance. The teams that picked ahead of us in the 2015 NBA Draft were Minnesota, LAL, PHI, and the Knicks. Rubio missed 60 games that season for the Wolves and Melo missed 40+ games for the Knicks. Now if they didn't get early injuries and had been playing for the majority of the season, are those teams still picking where they are? Probably not. In a way, those teams were lucky that key players for them got injured so they could end up with allstar level players/franchise cornerstones. Philly didn't let luck get involved and just full on tanked and made smart moves.

[fendilim]

Ibaka is disgruntled? hm...

[OrlandoDream]

Got Prozac?

But seriously, the conclusions we are making from just watching opening night are too much. It's a long season guys

[KrAzY3]

I think the difference is that when Philly came out and had the intention of tanking, they didn't half ass it.

Exactly. They never lost focus (until their GM got fired) and just kept stockpiling assets. I get that Orlando couldn't have replicated that entirely, but I always felt like trying to do should have been the right approach.

Ibaka is disgruntled? hm...

Was, Ibaka was unhappy in Oklahoma State. The point being is if things didn't change he was going to walk either way.

But seriously, the conclusions we are making from just watching opening night are too much. It's a long season guys

It isn't based on opening night at all. Like I said I started to feel that way when Orlando decided even though they were nowhere near having enough talent, they needed a point guard. Opening night just reminded me of how the 76ers did it vs. how Orlando did it.

[Nightman]

As you said, none of those guys that we traded away had good games. Just because Sabonis is starting doesn't mean he should be starting. Even if Saric turns out to be good, the fact that he was overseas needs to be factored in. We knew he wouldn't be coming over until a couple years and we had no guarantee that he would be coming over at all.

As soon as Sabonis/Oladipo/Saric start destroying the league, I'll be the first one to join the pity party. But after game 1, there's nothing that makes me feel like we dropped the ball by trading those guys away.

[MagicFan101]

People overvalue the "starter" label. A coach can assign and remove this at any point for any reason. Just because someone started game one for a historically bad team and a team recovering from a massive overhaul in the offseason, doesn't mean they are career starter material for good teams.

Even if a player is talented enough to be a starter on some teams doesn't mean they should start for every team. James Harden didn't start in OKC. Does that mean Sabonis is a better prospect for them now than Harden was then?

[djhunkyherbs]

Are we sure that we'd really rather be in Philly or OKC's position? I understand people being disappointed about the Magic because of last night, but both Philly and OKC have issues as well.

Philly has had one of the worst four-year stretches that I can ever remember in NBA history, and basically what they have to show for it are 5 guys who play 2 positions, some rotations players, and some D-Leaguers. Obviously some of their guys have a lot of potential, but none of them have yet proven anything. Embiid, Simmons, and Saric could turn out to be superstars, or they could just be mediocre players. We simply don't have any idea yet what they will become, but it's gotta be at least a little troubling that Okafor, Noel, Simmons, and Embiid have all had injury issues. Unless Philly turns into a perennial contender in the future with the pieces they've assembled, was being the embarrassment of the league really worth it? Time will tell, but I'm not convinced at all that I'd rather be in Philly's position going forward than Orlando's.

As for the Thunder, I'm also not convinced that they're in a much better position. Sure, Westbrook is a superstar but there are plenty of superstars in this league who play on mediocre teams (Cousins, Davis, Harden, George, etc.). Besides Westbrook, though, is the rest of the roster really that impressive? The OP writes that we know what Oladipo can do, but we also know what he can't do, and his stat line last night shouldn't look too unfamiliar to Magic fans: 4-16 overall, 0-5 from three, 1 assist versus 3 turnovers. Obviously I don't think Oladipo will always be that bad, but if he's supposed to be the Robin to Westbrook's Batman, then I think the Thunder are in trouble, at least if they think they are a contending team, or even a team that will compete for home court in the WC playoffs. Aside from those two, the Thunder basically have a bunch of guys who are one-way players. Guys like Ilyasova and Kanter are decent or good offensive players, but are liabilities on defense, while guys like Adams and Roberson and solid defensively but don't contribute much with their offense. Finally, in their starting lineup, their best shooter from deep (using last year's stats) is Oladipo. In my opinion, if your starting lineup is one in which VO is your best shooter, you're probably in trouble, but we'll see what the Thunder do.

Again, I understand being disappointed about what the Magic displayed last night, but I still don't think we're in an awful position, and I'm certainly not convinced that we as Magic fans would be much more optimistic if we were fans of either Philly or OKC.

[fendilim]

Are we sure that we'd really rather be in Philly or OKC's position? I understand people being disappointed about the Magic because of last night, but both Philly and OKC have issues as well.

Philly has had one of the worst four-year stretches that I can ever remember in NBA history, and basically what they have to show for it are 5 guys who play 2 positions, some rotations players, and some D-Leaguers. Obviously some of their guys have a lot of potential, but none of them have yet proven anything. Embiid, Simmons, and Saric could turn out to be superstars, or they could just be mediocre players. We simply don't have any idea yet what they will become, but it's gotta be at least a little troubling that Okafor, Noel, Simmons, and Embiid have all had injury issues. Unless Philly turns into a perennial contender in the future with the pieces they've assembled, was being the embarrassment of the league really worth it? Time will tell, but I'm not convinced at all that I'd rather be in Philly's position going forward than Orlando's.

As for the Thunder, I'm also not convinced that they're in a much better position. Sure, Westbrook is a superstar but there are plenty of superstars in this league who play on mediocre teams (Cousins, Davis, Harden, George, etc.). Besides Westbrook, though, is the rest of the roster really that impressive? The OP writes that we know what Oladipo can do, but we also know what he can't do, and his stat line last night shouldn't look too unfamiliar to Magic fans: 4-16 overall, 0-5 from three, 1 assist versus 3 turnovers. Obviously I don't think Oladipo will always be that bad, but if he's supposed to be the Robin to Westbrook's Batman, then I think the Thunder are in trouble, at least if they think they are a contending team, or even a team that will compete for home court in the WC playoffs. Aside from those two, the Thunder basically have a bunch of guys who are one-way players. Guys like Ilyasova and Kanter are decent or good offensive players, but are liabilities on defense, while guys like Adams and Roberson and solid defensively but don't contribute much with their offense. Finally, in their starting lineup, their best shooter from deep (using last year's stats) is Oladipo. In my opinion, if your starting lineup is one in which VO is your best shooter, you're probably in trouble, but we'll see what the Thunder do.

Again, I understand being disappointed about what the Magic displayed last night, but I still don't think we're in an awful position, and I'm certainly not convinced that we as Magic fans would be much more optimistic if we were fans of either Philly or OKC.

doesn't matter if they have 5 guys, but they have two possible superstars in Embiid and Simmons. THats the difference. The others can be considered collateral. Its not like they won't get any value out of the two. They still have potential superstars on their team.

[erod009]

Are we sure that we'd really rather be in Philly or OKC's position? I understand people being disappointed about the Magic because of last night, but both Philly and OKC have issues as well.

I would.

[Tayswagzzz]

Okay, so, we didn't go all in on the rebuild like the 76ers did. We got one of the best players out of the 2013 draft and sadly that was one of the weakest drafts of all time.

We never got gifted the #1 pick during our rebuild. When we did pick, we fell a pick or two short of BPA and best fit. This rebuild has been rough as hell for the sake of luck.

Dwight for Vuc, decent, considering Dwight demanded a trade out. JJ Redick for Harris, great. Afflalo for Fournier, great.

So now at this point, we've drafted, Oladipo, Aaron Gordon, Elfrid Payton, Mario Hezonja. At this moment we should be looking at ways to balance out the team. We decide for whatever unearthly reason that the best way to do this is to trade Tobias Harris for Illyasova and Jennings. WE DIDN'T EVEN GET A PICK FOR THIS, HOW DID THIS TRADE HAPPEN.

Next we trade Oladipo, Illyasova, and a #11 lottery pick for Ibaka. I have no idea why the #11 pick needed to be included in this trade, we overpaid for a 1 yr rental on Ibaka and it remains to be seen if he will sign with us when the year is over. Things like giving the #11 pick and not receiving a pick for Harris really hurt us.

The good news. We have pieces we can trade to better balance out the team, and I truly and honestly believe we will to become a better balanced team to help push us into playoffs, because if we don't hit playoffs then I think we lose Ibaka, and that has to be taken into consideration.

All in all, the rebuild hasn't been so kind to us, we've had some bad trades, but it isn't all grim, we can still make something out of this team and what assets we do have. December we might see some trades happen with our team.

[OrlChamps2030]

It is kinda crazy how many guys we've let walk or trade for expirings/2nds that went on to become decent role players on playoff teams

Tobias Harris
Maurice Harkless
Josh mcroberts
Channing Frye
Etwaun Moore
Andrew Nicholson

I guess that's the nature of the NBA, you have to avoid overpaying marginal talent. role players look better on good teams as well. Guess I'm being a little salty because most of our assets have been gathered through the lotto/trades. Hennigan hasn't really been able to pull a rabbit out of a hat like some other teams have

[MagicFan101]

It is kinda crazy how many guys we've let walk or trade for expirings/2nds that went on to become decent role players on playoff teams

Tobias Harris
Maurice Harkless
Josh mcroberts
Channing Frye
Etwaun Moore
Andrew Nicholson

I guess that's the nature of the NBA, you have to avoid overpaying marginal talent. role players look better on good teams as well. Guess I'm being a little salty because most of our assets have been gathered through the lotto/trades. Hennigan hasn't really been able to pull a rabbit out of a hat like some other teams have

Harkless is so up and down that you just can't trust him. Even his strong recent play in Portland isn't enough to convince them to stand firmly behind him.

Frye doesnt belong on a rebuilding roster. Put him next to Lebron and those stars, let him punish teams for double teaming by hitting open threes and end the story there.

Are people actually sad about McRoberts or Moore?

We knew what we had in Harris and Nicholson. We had talent but it wasn't special. It was productive but it wasn't difference making in the big picture sense. The key was, it was time to pay up for them while we have rookie scale contracts for other forward we still had / have hope of emerging.

[OrlChamps2030]

It is kinda crazy how many guys we've let walk or trade for expirings/2nds that went on to become decent role players on playoff teams

Tobias Harris
Maurice Harkless
Josh mcroberts
Channing Frye
Etwaun Moore
Andrew Nicholson

I guess that's the nature of the NBA, you have to avoid overpaying marginal talent. role players look better on good teams as well. Guess I'm being a little salty because most of our assets have been gathered through the lotto/trades. Hennigan hasn't really been able to pull a rabbit out of a hat like some other teams have

Harkless is so up and down that you just can't trust him. Even his strong recent play in Portland isn't enough to convince them to stand firmly behind him.

Frye doesnt belong on a rebuilding roster. Put him next to Lebron and those stars, let him punish teams for double teaming by hitting open threes and end the story there.

Are people actually sad about McRoberts or Moore?

We knew what we had in Harris and Nicholson. We had talent but it wasn't special. It was productive but it wasn't difference making in the big picture sense. The key was, it was time to pay up for them while we have rookie scale contracts for other forward we still had / have hope of emerging.

I forgot Ryan ANderson too

No one is sad about any of the above guys leaving (except for maybe Tobias)

Just saying its additional quality depth we lost for nothing.

[Nemesis21]

It is absolutely hilarious hearing people still say Embiid has superstar potential.The guy is one injury away from being Greg Oden. Except Oden manged to play over 100 games in the NBA, I don't think Embiid will play more.

[KrAzY3]

Are we sure that we'd really rather be in Philly or OKC's position? I understand people being disappointed about the Magic because of last night, but both Philly and OKC have issues as well...

Time will tell, but I'm not convinced at all that I'd rather be in Philly's position going forward than Orlando's.

You're right in that time would tell. I'm more irritated with forcing the hand of the GM (from what I've read) to try to make some win now moves started a while ago, vs. just letting him stockpile talent. I would prefer to be in Philly's spot though because they have the potential to be great. I honestly don't think I can see that anymore with Orlando. Potential to be good, sure but great?

So now at this point, we've drafted, Oladipo, Aaron Gordon, Elfrid Payton, Mario Hezonja. At this moment we should be looking at ways to balance out the team. We decide for whatever unearthly reason that the best way to do this is to trade Tobias Harris for Illyasova and Jennings. WE DIDN'T EVEN GET A PICK FOR THIS, HOW DID THIS TRADE HAPPEN.

Next we trade Oladipo, Illyasova, and a #11 lottery pick for Ibaka. I have no idea why the #11 pick needed to be included in this trade, we overpaid for a 1 yr rental on Ibaka and it remains to be seen if he will sign with us when the year is over. Things like giving the #11 pick and not receiving a pick for Harris really hurt us.

You outlined some of the things that irritated me though. Not getting enough for Harris, giving up too much for Ibaka. It just felt like the focus on stockpiling talent slipped, and to me that started with the whole we need a starting PG even if we barely have a team thing. I'd feel a lot better if this team had Sabonis and for instance had another future first rounder. Assets matter...

[Def Swami]

I get jealous of watching other teams' young players prosper as well.

[Bergmaniac]

I think Sabonis will end up a quite good player. He's already at a decent level defensively, which for a young big outside of a Top 3 pick is pretty rare. He can shoot the 3 ball well and he has a nice post game. Maybe he's not ready for starter minutes yet and he's still too tentative to shoot too often, but OKC will have him for 4 years on a cheap deal while we'd have to probably overpay Ibaka to keep him here if he doesn't just walk next summer.

On the other hand, in most preseason games and in his first regular season game Oladipo has looked so bad that we might still "win" the trade even if Sabonis pans out to be a solid NBA player. He made Nick Stauskas look like a superstar at times yesterday, that's how easily he was getting beat by him.

[fendilim]

It is kinda crazy how many guys we've let walk or trade for expirings/2nds that went on to become decent role players on playoff teams

Tobias Harris
Maurice Harkless
Josh mcroberts
Channing Frye
Etwaun Moore
Andrew Nicholson

I guess that's the nature of the NBA, you have to avoid overpaying marginal talent. role players look better on good teams as well. Guess I'm being a little salty because most of our assets have been gathered through the lotto/trades. Hennigan hasn't really been able to pull a rabbit out of a hat like some other teams have

We could really use tobias than jeff green...

[Howard Mass]

The biggest problem with this rebuild is the Magic did not get lucky in the lottery.

In 2013, it was a weak draft.

In 2014, it's still TBD

In 2015, they missed out on KAT and Porzingis.

In 2016, they did not tank that year.

The teams that rebuilt during that time L.A. Lakers, Philadelphia and Minnesota got stars because of higher picks and The Magic didn't.