Re: 2023-2024 Regular Season Game 72: Golden State Warriors (37-34) at Orlando Magic (42-29) - 7pm
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:42 pm
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Harris spreads the floor and that helps the rest of the team. I remember Evan always shooting way better when TRoss was in the lineup. The offense looks more functional.Skybox wrote:eyriq wrote:That Harris impact analysis is based on all noise, no signal. Last year it was Fultz getting carried by this type of thinking, now it's Harris? Franz and Paolo are the common denominators. Suggs has replaced Fultz and WCJ as the clear #3. Harris is irrelevant.Bergmaniac wrote:The annoying thing about this loss is that the Warriors didn't even play that well, their offense was struggling during long periods of the game, they shot poorly from 3, Curry was subpar until the last minute or so, they had some idiotic turnovers, but we kept bailing them out with bad misses and poor rebounding. Paolo and Suggs had a nightmare and Franz wasn't much better. Fultz...I still have no idea why he is still playing, he tries hard, but he just doesn't have it now. Coel And Isaac kept in the game with help from Ingles and Moe (in the second half, he was quite bad in the first half though he also on the end of some terrible calls by the refs).
Harris' impact has always been underrated on this board, his boxscore is nothing special, but since he's been here we've usually played quite a bit better with him on the court, especially when he is a starter. We are 31-15 in the games he's played this year and 15-4 in the games he started. This is somewhat skewed by the easy schedule of the largest stretch he played as a starter, but it's still indicative of his impact. The starting lineup was crushing it after ASB when he played and we rarely got into a hole in the first 7-8 minuites of the games unlike most of the season. The Harris-Suggs-Wendell-Paolo-Franz starting lineup has +7.9 net rating in the first quarter while the other two most used starting lineups this season are -6.6 and -10.3 respectively, not having to dig ourselves out of holes early on was very important for the good streak.
But mostly our stars need to be better.
Harris looks great...relative to all of our guards but Suggs That's not Harris' fault-it's Weltman's
basketballRob wrote:Harris spreads the floor and that helps the rest of the team. I remember Evan always shooting way better when TRoss was in the lineup. The offense looks more functional.Skybox wrote:eyriq wrote:That Harris impact analysis is based on all noise, no signal. Last year it was Fultz getting carried by this type of thinking, now it's Harris? Franz and Paolo are the common denominators. Suggs has replaced Fultz and WCJ as the clear #3. Harris is irrelevant.
Harris looks great...relative to all of our guards but Suggs That's not Harris' fault-it's Weltman's
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basketballRob wrote:The starting lineup is way better with Harris.
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JF5 wrote:
This is why that it would be hard to start guys like Goga and Black right now. Because Good teams are just allowing the Magic role players to shoot/score whilst zeroing on Franz/Paolo in the paint. And if you have 2 guys who have barely any offensive inclination on the court (with one of your stars struggling to shoot the 3 ball well) it makes your offensive woes a lot tougher.
Fultz is the curse that keeps on cursingMagicMatic wrote:JF5 wrote:
This is why that it would be hard to start guys like Goga and Black right now. Because Good teams are just allowing the Magic role players to shoot/score whilst zeroing on Franz/Paolo in the paint. And if you have 2 guys who have barely any offensive inclination on the court (with one of your stars struggling to shoot the 3 ball well) it makes your offensive woes a lot tougher.
This makes perfect sense to start Fultz over Cole then. Much better having a shrunk floor and no spacing. Also, last time I checked, AB was also a better shooter than Fultz off catch and shoot 3’s.
eyriq wrote:That Harris impact analysis is based on all noise, no signal. Last year it was Fultz getting carried by this type of thinking, now it's Harris?
JF5 wrote:basketballRob wrote:The starting lineup is way better with Harris.
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The Starter's offense has hit a dead end against superior/veteran teams.
It makes sense because a young team offensively doesn't have much when it comes to am extensive playbook/packaging/experience and not enough counters when their bread and butter does not work.
People are going to blame Mose but there is only so much he can do with your best players not having counters to specific defenses yet. If they were 5-6 year vets it would be more concerning. But games like this against a team that has much of a championship pedigree and experience like the Warriors who are fighting for their playoff lives too makes it tougher.
The trends we've been seeing over the last few weeks actually are teams are just packing the paint and immediate doubling/pressuring not just Paolo... But also Franz around 10 feet and below. Yesterday, the Warriors played a boxed 3/2 and 2/3 zone defenses just daring the other starters to shoot.
This is why that it would be hard to start guys like Goga and Black right now. Because Good teams are just allowing the Magic role players to shoot/score whilst zeroing on Franz/Paolo in the paint. And if you have 2 guys who have barely any offensive inclination on the court (with one of your stars struggling to shoot the 3 ball well) it makes your offensive woes a lot tougher.
The defense in none of these games theyve lost have been the culprit. It's really been the offense struggling to generate points.
Fortune Teller wrote:I see Fultz got the chance to start and really made the most of it.
16 minutes, 4 points, 1 rebound, ZERO ASSISTS, ZERO FT ATTEMPTS, ZERO 3-PT ATTEMPTS
Sixth season on the roster, second-highest paid player on the team. No other team in the league would ever.
JF5 wrote:basketballRob wrote:The starting lineup is way better with Harris.
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The Starter's offense has hit a dead end against superior/veteran teams.
It makes sense because a young team offensively doesn't have much when it comes to am extensive playbook/packaging/experience and not enough counters when their bread and butter does not work.
People are going to blame Mose but there is only so much he can do with your best players not having counters to specific defenses yet. If they were 5-6 year vets it would be more concerning. But games like this against a team that has much of a championship pedigree and experience like the Warriors who are fighting for their playoff lives too makes it tougher.
The trends we've been seeing over the last few weeks actually are teams are just packing the paint and immediate doubling/pressuring not just Paolo... But also Franz around 10 feet and below. Yesterday, the Warriors played a boxed 3/2 and 2/3 zone defenses just daring the other starters to shoot.
This is why that it would be hard to start guys like Goga and Black right now. Because Good teams are just allowing the Magic role players to shoot/score whilst zeroing on Franz/Paolo in the paint. And if you have 2 guys who have barely any offensive inclination on the court (with one of your stars struggling to shoot the 3 ball well) it makes your offensive woes a lot tougher.
The defense in none of these games theyve lost have been the culprit. It's really been the offense struggling to generate points.
MagicMatic wrote:JF5 wrote:
This is why that it would be hard to start guys like Goga and Black right now. Because Good teams are just allowing the Magic role players to shoot/score whilst zeroing on Franz/Paolo in the paint. And if you have 2 guys who have barely any offensive inclination on the court (with one of your stars struggling to shoot the 3 ball well) it makes your offensive woes a lot tougher.
This makes perfect sense to start Fultz over Cole then. Much better having a shrunk floor and no spacing. Also, last time I checked, AB was also a better shooter than Fultz off catch and shoot 3’s.
Knightro wrote:eyriq wrote:That Harris impact analysis is based on all noise, no signal. Last year it was Fultz getting carried by this type of thinking, now it's Harris?
Ehhhh.
Fultz last year had a **** net rating and **** on/off metrics. The team was quite literally succeeding in spite of him and people were blind to it because the turnaround last year from a record perspective happened to coincided with his return from injury (also Cole's return, and Moritz's return, and WCJ's return and Gary's return, but people generally were apt to ignore those parts).
Harris has played well, especially lately, and the team has been really good with him on the court. Something that was not really the case much at all with Fultz last year.
Black had an assist, got to the line 3 times, and took 2 threes. His ability to move off ball, catch and shoot, and draw contact while attacking the basket is already ahead of Fultz. He's also a willing connector piece and quickly swings the ball and keeps the offense moving.JF5 wrote:MagicMatic wrote:JF5 wrote:
This is why that it would be hard to start guys like Goga and Black right now. Because Good teams are just allowing the Magic role players to shoot/score whilst zeroing on Franz/Paolo in the paint. And if you have 2 guys who have barely any offensive inclination on the court (with one of your stars struggling to shoot the 3 ball well) it makes your offensive woes a lot tougher.
This makes perfect sense to start Fultz over Cole then. Much better having a shrunk floor and no spacing. Also, last time I checked, AB was also a better shooter than Fultz off catch and shoot 3’s.
AB can't create his own offense, penetrate, and get others involved like Fultz can. The problem with Fultz is that he's just been godawful at doing those things since he's come back from injury. If he looked like any from last year the offense would look much better.
You argue to put Black in. But Black cannot create his own offense whatsoever. On top of that he is shooting better, you're correct about that but he is similar to an Aaron Gordon in the sense he'll take the occasional 3 rather than being a high volume floor spacer like a Klay Thompson, Gary Trent Jr., or even Jalen Suggs. Youll see teams just consistently leave him wide open because hes still a very unreliable shooter. and if Black is not making any 3s he's essentially useless on the offensive end. There's nothing on the offensive end outside of shooting that he does better than Fultz, and even that's not reliable at this point of his career.
Defensively it's essentially a wash because all the guards are really good defenders, and that end the team is fine. Once again, they need to find a way to generate more offense. And to be honest that's likely not going to he assuage during the offseason through internal development, Shooters/Scorers/Playmakers via free agent additions, and chemistry.
I like Black to as a Role Player in the future. But I think they might need to move on from him if guys like Malcolm Brogdon, Bojan Bogdonovic, and Bruce Brown are made available for that play-making role off the bench.
And I like to emphasize with you in particular that I want Fultz off the team or playing deep bench minutes if they decide to bring him back. He should not be a rotation guy.
eyriq wrote:Black had an assist, got to the line 3 times, and took 2 threes. His ability to move off ball, catch and shoot, and draw contact while attacking the basket is already ahead of Fultz. He's also a willing connector piece and quickly swings the ball and keeps the offense moving.JF5 wrote:MagicMatic wrote:
This makes perfect sense to start Fultz over Cole then. Much better having a shrunk floor and no spacing. Also, last time I checked, AB was also a better shooter than Fultz off catch and shoot 3’s.
AB can't create his own offense, penetrate, and get others involved like Fultz can. The problem with Fultz is that he's just been godawful at doing those things since he's come back from injury. If he looked like any from last year the offense would look much better.
You argue to put Black in. But Black cannot create his own offense whatsoever. On top of that he is shooting better, you're correct about that but he is similar to an Aaron Gordon in the sense he'll take the occasional 3 rather than being a high volume floor spacer like a Klay Thompson, Gary Trent Jr., or even Jalen Suggs. Youll see teams just consistently leave him wide open because hes still a very unreliable shooter. and if Black is not making any 3s he's essentially useless on the offensive end. There's nothing on the offensive end outside of shooting that he does better than Fultz, and even that's not reliable at this point of his career.
Defensively it's essentially a wash because all the guards are really good defenders, and that end the team is fine. Once again, they need to find a way to generate more offense. And to be honest that's likely not going to he assuage during the offseason through internal development, Shooters/Scorers/Playmakers via free agent additions, and chemistry.
I like Black to as a Role Player in the future. But I think they might need to move on from him if guys like Malcolm Brogdon, Bojan Bogdonovic, and Bruce Brown are made available for that play-making role off the bench.
And I like to emphasize with you in particular that I want Fultz off the team or playing deep bench minutes if they decide to bring him back. He should not be a rotation guy.
JF5 wrote:MagicMatic wrote:JF5 wrote:
This is why that it would be hard to start guys like Goga and Black right now. Because Good teams are just allowing the Magic role players to shoot/score whilst zeroing on Franz/Paolo in the paint. And if you have 2 guys who have barely any offensive inclination on the court (with one of your stars struggling to shoot the 3 ball well) it makes your offensive woes a lot tougher.
This makes perfect sense to start Fultz over Cole then. Much better having a shrunk floor and no spacing. Also, last time I checked, AB was also a better shooter than Fultz off catch and shoot 3’s.
AB can't create his own offense, penetrate, and get others involved like Fultz can. The problem with Fultz is that he's just been godawful at doing those things since he's come back from injury. If he looked like any from last year the offense would look much better.
You argue to put Black in. But Black cannot create his own offense whatsoever. On top of that he is shooting better, you're correct about that but he is similar to an Aaron Gordon in the sense he'll take the occasional 3 rather than being a high volume floor spacer like a Klay Thompson, Gary Trent Jr., or even Jalen Suggs. Youll see teams just consistently leave him wide open because hes still a very unreliable shooter. and if Black is not making any 3s he's essentially useless on the offensive end. There's nothing on the offensive end outside of shooting that he does better than Fultz, and even that's not reliable at this point of his career.
Defensively it's essentially a wash because all the guards are really good defenders, and that end the team is fine. Once again, they need to find a way to generate more offense. And to be honest that's likely not going to he assuage during the offseason through internal development, Shooters/Scorers/Playmakers via free agent additions, and chemistry.
I like Black to as a Role Player in the future. But I think they might need to move on from him if guys like Malcolm Brogdon, Bojan Bogdonovic, and Bruce Brown are made available for that play-making role off the bench.
And I like to emphasize with you in particular that I want Fultz off the team or playing deep bench minutes if they decide to bring him back. He should not be a rotation guy.
He's the 5th option. Another area that he clears Fultz, he's not taking dribbles out of our best players hands. Time on the ball should be dominated by Paolo, Franz, and Suggs.p0peye wrote:eyriq wrote:Black had an assist, got to the line 3 times, and took 2 threes. His ability to move off ball, catch and shoot, and draw contact while attacking the basket is already ahead of Fultz. He's also a willing connector piece and quickly swings the ball and keeps the offense moving.JF5 wrote:
AB can't create his own offense, penetrate, and get others involved like Fultz can. The problem with Fultz is that he's just been godawful at doing those things since he's come back from injury. If he looked like any from last year the offense would look much better.
You argue to put Black in. But Black cannot create his own offense whatsoever. On top of that he is shooting better, you're correct about that but he is similar to an Aaron Gordon in the sense he'll take the occasional 3 rather than being a high volume floor spacer like a Klay Thompson, Gary Trent Jr., or even Jalen Suggs. Youll see teams just consistently leave him wide open because hes still a very unreliable shooter. and if Black is not making any 3s he's essentially useless on the offensive end. There's nothing on the offensive end outside of shooting that he does better than Fultz, and even that's not reliable at this point of his career.
Defensively it's essentially a wash because all the guards are really good defenders, and that end the team is fine. Once again, they need to find a way to generate more offense. And to be honest that's likely not going to he assuage during the offseason through internal development, Shooters/Scorers/Playmakers via free agent additions, and chemistry.
I like Black to as a Role Player in the future. But I think they might need to move on from him if guys like Malcolm Brogdon, Bojan Bogdonovic, and Bruce Brown are made available for that play-making role off the bench.
And I like to emphasize with you in particular that I want Fultz off the team or playing deep bench minutes if they decide to bring him back. He should not be a rotation guy.
Truth be told, he barely touches the ball once it is on opponent's half.
p0peye wrote:If memory serves me well, at that time I was pointing out that Cole's play correlates to our success unlike Fultz's.