2015 NBA Draft Combine Discussion Thread

[Ericb5]

I'd be ok with Mudiay with those two as well...he can be a star PG.

Without a jumpshot or elite athleticism? Forget about it. Marcus Smart, MCW, Elfrid Payton, Ricky Rubio, etc. That's the caliber of player he'll fall into.

First off, all of those players that you cite are good players. Worthy of top 10 picks, and representative of his floor.

Mudiay is so young that I don't understand why you aren't optimistic about his ability to develop a jump shot.

I get it that you may not think him worthy of being taken above Russell, but he has things that you can't teach(athleticism, feel) that are harder to find than shooting ability.


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[Att]

He didn't excel there? He was hurt most of the year and still put up 18pts a game against grown ass men. **** level of play or not, those are grown ass men, in a country he probably didn't know the language, miles away from home...at 19.

I don't think he's that impressive either but it is only based off of Highlight tapes and ****...and that is a very very poor way of doing it.

Hinkie will have more data but 18pts per game in China against really weak defenses is not excelling. It doesn't say a lot either way.

[Kobblehead]

Without a jumpshot or elite athleticism? Forget about it. Marcus Smart, MCW, Elfrid Payton, Ricky Rubio, etc. That's the caliber of player he'll fall into.

First off, all of those players that you cite are good players. Worthy of top 10 picks, and representative of his floor.

I didn't say they weren't good players. They're just not stars. He said he thinks Mudiay can be a star. I said no way without a jumpshot or elite athleticism. Don't tributarize this conversation.

[Ericb5]

Without a jumpshot or elite athleticism? Forget about it. Marcus Smart, MCW, Elfrid Payton, Ricky Rubio, etc. That's the caliber of player he'll fall into.

First off, all of those players that you cite are good players. Worthy of top 10 picks, and representative of his floor.

I didn't say they weren't good players. They're just not stars. He said he thinks Mudiay can be a star. I said no way without a jumpshot or elite athleticism. Don't tributarize this conversation.

At 3 or 4 in this draft a star is a full on hope, it isn't an expectation.

If someone at 3 or 4 ends up only being as good as Ricky Rubio then that is still a win with the pick.

We have to be realistic here. Just because you are a top 5 pick doesn't mean that you have to be a star or you are a bust.

Superstars are extremely rare. Most top 5 picks don't get to that level.


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[Mik317]

I don't think anyone in this draft will be stars. All Star level players maybe. But not centerpieces of your franchise.

Then again, the definitions of that differs a bit. Bron, KD, Curry, AD,and maybe Westbrook are the only guys I'd personally consider stars. The next tier down is close to that (Harden, Wall, and CP3 and Blake). And I don't think anybody as of right now is even close to that second tier at their best possible cases (as of right now...dudes always can break through their theoretical ceilings).

Mudiay can be really really good, as long as he can get in the paint and finish and become even slightly ok at shooting. He can be great if he fully fixes his jumper..which is possible but not super likely based off history. I don't think his floor is as low as people make it out to be either. Whereas if Russell's lack of burst truly holds him back...he is a spot up shooter who can handle the ball and pass a little...JJ Redick. This is with every prospect this year (or most years), what is his flaw, can he fix it, if not will he still be a contributor, and at what level. Mudiay who doesn't fix his jumper still will be a solid starter...of course you want/need more out of your top 5 pick, but you have to roll the dice against the worst case scenario of the other dudes on the board. People are acting like we would be passing on the next Jordan here....no one in this draft is without their potential fatal flaws...

[Ericb5]

I don't think anyone in this draft will be stars. All Star level players maybe. But not centerpieces of your franchise.

Then again, the definitions of that differs a bit. Bron, KD, Curry, AD,and maybe Westbrook are the only guys I'd personally consider stars. The next tier down is close to that (Harden, Wall, and CP3 and Blake). And I don't think anybody as of right now is even close to that second tier at their best possible cases (as of right now...dudes always can break through their theoretical ceilings).

Mudiay can be really really good, as long as he can get in the paint and finish and become even slightly ok at shooting. He can be great if he fully fixes his jumper..which is possible but not super likely based off history. I don't think his floor is as low as people make it out to be either. Whereas if Russell's lack of burst truly holds him back...he is a spot up shooter who can handle the ball and pass a little...JJ Redick. This is with every prospect this year (or most years), what is his flaw, can he fix it, if not will he still be a contributor, and at what level. Mudiay who doesn't fix his jumper still will be a solid starter...of course you want/need more out of your top 5 pick, but you have to roll the dice against the worst case scenario of the other dudes on the board. People are acting like we would be passing on the next Jordan here....no one in this draft is without their potential fatal flaws...

I think that most people think of NBA players as stars or superstars.

Anyone who makes an allstar team for the most point is a star. Superstars are the ones that carry franchises.

For example, Lemarcus Aldridge is a star player. lebron is a superstar.


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[cksdayoff]

We have to be realistic here. Just because you are a top 5 pick doesn't mean that you have to be a star or you are a bust.

Superstars are extremely rare. Most top 5 picks don't get to that level.

there's a difference between a star and a superstar. you should be striving for a franchise level talent with a top 5 pick. when your team sucks so much to get a pick in the top 5, a "very good player" just won't do. you don't have to be a superstar to be a franchise player, there aren't many superstars in the league. But you do want to get a star player when you're drafting that high. Mudiay could very well end up being a star in this league, but I think it will be hard for him to reach that level without a consistent jump shot.

as a fan I just don't want to deal with a player who can't shoot that the Sixers draft in the top 5 and hope and pray he develops one in the next couple of years. I've been burned too many times.

[Sixerscan]

Well that's just not the expected return on a top 5 pick. Otherwise there would be like 40-50 franchise level talents in the league at a given time.

[Ericb5]

We have to be realistic here. Just because you are a top 5 pick doesn't mean that you have to be a star or you are a bust.

Superstars are extremely rare. Most top 5 picks don't get to that level.

there's a difference between a star and a superstar. you should be striving for a franchise level talent with a top 5 pick. when your team sucks so much to get a pick in the top 5, a "very good player" just won't do. you don't have to be a superstar to be a franchise player, there aren't many superstars in the league. But you do want to get a star player when you're drafting that high. Mudiay could very well end up being a star in this league, but I think it will be hard for him to reach that level without a consistent jump shot.

as a fan I just don't want to deal with a player who can't shoot that the Sixers draft in the top 5 and hope and pray he develops one in the next couple of years. I've been burned too many times.

You are absolutely right that top five picks are hopefully superstars and are clearly the best chance that most franchises ever get. That is why I completely agree with the notion of taking the players with the highest upside in that area.

Teams in that position HAVE to go for it. My point previously however was just that, if you miss on a superstar(as most top five picks do) then ending up with a very good player is still a "win". If Russell turns into Beal then that is a win, even though Beal isn't Stephen Curry.

If he turns into Evan Turner(a player that I still think has a bright future) then that is not a win.

I am quite confident that Hinkie gets it with regard to drafting. He balances a prospect's ceiling against the appropriate level of risk and goes for it.

Drafting Embiid took balls last year, and even if Embiid flames out health wise, it was clearly the right pick.

I like Dante Exum still a lot, but he is not the guy you gamble on when Embiid is on the table.


Also, and I don't think that this comes up often enough, but player development is not a foregone conclusion.

The organization that drafts a prospect has a lot to do with the success of the prospect. The history of the NBA is littered with teams that mishandled talent. Hinkie has created an organization where player development is of the utmost importance.

From the trip to visit Saric last year, to letting Embiid participate in the combine interviews, to the sports science, to the effort charts, to the hiring of Brett Brown. This organization is absolutely at the forefront of the player development, and culture development, model.

I have complete confidence that the player selected will be given every opportunity to succeed, and the choice of that player will be very well thought out and reasoned.

Some of us on this board are extremely opinionated, and that is a good thing, but Hinkie knows what he is doing. If he takes Hezonja at 3 for example, I guarantee that he has more behind that selection than just preference. I would be disappointed if he took Hezonja that high, but what the heck do I know? I'm just a basketball fan.

I don't look forward to trying to get a prospect that can't shoot to learn how to shoot either, but that is one of the few weaknesses that have been proven to be correctable.

He takes no decisions lightly. He evaluates all criteria and very methodically exercises his judgement.

I'm sure that sooner or later he will make a bad decision on a prospect, but it hasn't happened yet.

Rosters can be shaped through trades and free agency, but basic talent acquisition is mostly through the draft. That is where we really get to turn nothing into something.




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[SparksFly87]

If Russell can be a longer Bradley Beal with better handle and vision he is definitely worthy of a top 3 pick. Bradley beal has been great in the playoffs and can really score. I see Mudiay as a power guard,like Lance Stephenson and Tyreke Evans . If he truly is a true point guard . Why would we trade away Jrue holiday just to essential get another Jrue Holiday without a jump shot. He is basically a younger and flashier MCW. No thanks !

[bedjawII]

He didn't excel there? He was hurt most of the year and still put up 18pts a game against grown ass men. **** level of play or not, those are grown ass men, in a country he probably didn't know the language, miles away from home...at 19.

I don't think he's that impressive either but it is only based off of Highlight tapes and ****...and that is a very very poor way of doing it.

Hinkie will have more data but 18pts per game in China against really weak defenses is not excelling. It doesn't say a lot either way.

Here's the thing...weak D compared to whom? The worst CBA teams are still comparable to elite college programs. They are still professional men, who play together for years. What Mudiay did in the CBA is not insignificant.

[bedjawII]

If Russell can be a longer Bradley Beal with better handle and vision he is definitely worthy of a top 3 pick. Bradley beal has been great in the playoffs and can really score. I see Mudiay as a power guard,like Lance Stephenson and Tyreke Evans . If he truly is a true point guard . Why would we trade away Jrue holiday just to essential get another Jrue Holiday without a jump shot. He is basically a younger and flashier MCW. No thanks !

Agree that Russell is preferred over Mudiay but you clearly haven't seen Mudiay play too much. On these board Mudiay is getting a bad rep based strictly on hearsay. He is not a flashy play but a pretty creative playmaker. His shot certainly needs work but he has upper echelon athleticism. Mudiay hasn't done anything t hurt his stock rather Russell has blown up. Both he and Kat have done the most to improve their draft status. I still love Okafor and Mudiay but don't be surprised if they are drafted 3 and 4.

[Mik317]

Jrue was traded to assist in tanking and to get a prospect like Noel. He wasn't traded because he is a bad player or had a bad contract. In fact, we'd be pretty stoked to get a Jrue Holiday out of this draft (a healthy one of course). MCW is almost 5 years older than Mudiay which also played a factor in his moving. If we take Mudiay, it will be because the FO thinks that his lack of jumper is fixable or not a death sentence like MCW (Mudiay is sturdier than him buildwise which will make him a load in the paint than the frailer MCW). Neither are out the realm of possibility.

Mudiay's shot isn't as broken as people think. He shoots on the way down mainly. Plus if Brown can get Noel's **** to go in, I am sure he can work with Mudiay and unlike MCW, he's younger and the more important part will have a longer time to get better before we would have to pay him...plus he more than likely wouldn;t get that ROTY pop MCW had.

I like Russell more too but I am not going to bury Mudiay in the process either. Yes it would be great to finally take a guy who knows how to shoot for once..I agree. That being said...Russell got styled on by TJ Mconnell (sp) (who mind you is a pest defensively...he had dudes in the combine shook) and RHJ. I like to blame his **** teammates, and poor spacing but it is a concern...an equal one to Mudiay's lack of shooting. However, one if not overcome is a death sentence...shooting isnt that. Jason Kidd (NOT SAYING MUDIAY IS KIDD CHILLL) proved that you can last a while without a jumper. Tony Parker too. I can't think of many guys who survived at the point while not being able to get by anyone.

Again I truly think Russell is more of an offguard than a point but that is a discussion for another day...

[LloydFree]

If Russell can be a longer Bradley Beal with better handle and vision he is definitely worthy of a top 3 pick. Bradley beal has been great in the playoffs and can really score. I see Mudiay as a power guard,like Lance Stephenson and Tyreke Evans . If he truly is a true point guard . Why would we trade away Jrue holiday just to essential get another Jrue Holiday without a jump shot. He is basically a younger and flashier MCW. No thanks !

The 76ers didn't trade J'rue Holiday away because he was a bad player. They traded him away in order to bottom out. They essentially traded J'rue Holiday for the chance to draft a Joel Embiid. Now they need to replace Holiday.

Emmanuel Mudiay was a better prospect than J'rue Holiday coming out of HS, so if Emmanuel Mudiay progresses at the same stage its reasonable to believe he can be at least a J'rue Holiday level PG. That is a good get at the #3 or 4 pick.

[tk76]

I'm not sure Mudiay was any rated any higher than Jrue coming out of HS. Jrue Holiday was the #1 or #2 rated prospect in HS class:
http://www.draftexpress.com/RSCI/2008/

[42uptop]

Mudiay was 18 years old for most of the CBA season and averaged 18/6/6 while shooting 48% from the field and 34% from three. That's good for someone his age. If I remember correctly he was rated either #1 or #2 by most scouts before the season and now they have him as a fringe top 4 prospect. I can't find any justification for it outside of the scouts being "prisoner of the moment" from the college season. He's definitely a top 3 prospect in this draft, I'd take him over both of the Duke players.

[LloydFree]

I'm not sure Mudiay was any rated any higher than Jrue coming out of HS. Jrue Holiday was the #1 or #2 rated prospect in HS class:
http://www.draftexpress.com/RSCI/2008/

J'rue was the #2 rated prospect in a worse class. J'rue would have been hard pressed to make the top 10 in Mudiay's class.

[guitarpath]

Jrue Holiday was traded for one reason: Because he had by far the most value of any player on the roster at the time.

Hinkie is all about maximizing value, and that is exactly what he did by trading Holiday.

Hinkie has turned Jrue Holiday and a 2nd round pick in 2013 (Pierre Jackson) into three 1st round picks (Noel, Saric, 1st rounder in 2017) and a 2nd rounder (this year). That is impressive value for a good but not great and ultimately replaceable point guard.

That it helped in the tanking effort the past two seasons (which netted Embiid and this year's 1st round pick) is a secondary benefit.

[Negrodamus]

Jrue was traded to assist in tanking and to get a prospect like Noel. He wasn't traded because he is a bad player or had a bad contract. In fact, we'd be pretty stoked to get a Jrue Holiday out of this draft (a healthy one of course). MCW is almost 5 years older than Mudiay which also played a factor in his moving. If we take Mudiay, it will be because the FO thinks that his lack of jumper is fixable or not a death sentence like MCW (Mudiay is sturdier than him buildwise which will make him a load in the paint than the frailer MCW). Neither are out the realm of possibility.

Mudiay's shot isn't as broken as people think. He shoots on the way down mainly. Plus if Brown can get Noel's **** to go in, I am sure he can work with Mudiay and unlike MCW, he's younger and the more important part will have a longer time to get better before we would have to pay him...plus he more than likely wouldn;t get that ROTY pop MCW had.

I like Russell more too but I am not going to bury Mudiay in the process either. Yes it would be great to finally take a guy who knows how to shoot for once..I agree. That being said...Russell got styled on by TJ Mconnell (sp) (who mind you is a pest defensively...he had dudes in the combine shook) and RHJ. I like to blame his **** teammates, and poor spacing but it is a concern...an equal one to Mudiay's lack of shooting. However, one if not overcome is a death sentence...shooting isnt that. Jason Kidd (NOT SAYING MUDIAY IS KIDD CHILLL) proved that you can last a while without a jumper. Tony Parker too. I can't think of many guys who survived at the point while not being able to get by anyone.

Again I truly think Russell is more of an offguard than a point but that is a discussion for another day...

Just to be annoying: I'd leave out Kidd in this instance since he made the fifth most three pointers all time.

[James40]

He didn't excel there? He was hurt most of the year and still put up 18pts a game against grown ass men. **** level of play or not, those are grown ass men, in a country he probably didn't know the language, miles away from home...at 19.

I don't think he's that impressive either but it is only based off of Highlight tapes and ****...and that is a very very poor way of doing it.

Hinkie will have more data but 18pts per game in China against really weak defenses is not excelling. It doesn't say a lot either way.

Here's the thing...weak D compared to whom? The worst CBA teams are still comparable to elite college programs. They are still professional men, who play together for years. What Mudiay did in the CBA is not insignificant.

Let's not get too crazy, Shavlik Randolph dominated over there a few years ago. As the running joke goes but in this case is true, Kentucky beats the Foshan Lions.