Welcome Okafor: Thread 2

[BoomBap]

Jah should retire. His Rookie season showed us, that he is useless and that he can't ball. He is just a bust, because everybody knows that a player is a finished product, when he turns 20. He is so done.

[lotto29]

Jah should retire. His Rookie season showed us, that he is useless and that he can't ball. He is just a bust, because everybody knows that a player is a finished product, when he turns 20. He is so done.

True

[ankle420breaker]

Even if Embiid is healthy I want Noel to stay as insurance. Noel can come off the bench. His defense is valuable. You don't just let that go unless we get equal value back.

Well that's sort of the point, isn't it? We trade Noel if it is worth it for us to do so.

You can get equal value for him in the form of a guard though, which would balance out our team.


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I'd be fine with dealing Noel if it nets us a strong perimeter player. I get that he's a capable defensive player, but I feel like people severely overrate Noel and crown him as some kind of defensive savant. I personally was expecting to see much more improvement out of him this year. His rebounding and blocks haven't improved at all (in fact, his numbers are slightly down from his rookie year). All defensive NBA bigs put up more than 8 RPG and 1.5 BPG. There are guys like Biyombo out there who have been more productive in limited roles.

We still shouldn't be in any rush to move him, but if/when the right deal presents itself I could see him being the odd man out. The Oladipo rumor at the beginning of the season was definitely intriguing.

[ET Da Gawd]

I'll stress it again, okafor/embiid as starters, Noel 1st big off the bench, that's the 1st key to be championship level. We've seen the bigs Sam likes, now let's the pgs/sgs he drafts. Our big core is set. Those are the perfect blend of front court talent. Nerlens defense will be invaluable down the road


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[ExplosionsInDaSky]

Jah should retire. His Rookie season showed us, that he is useless and that he can't ball. He is just a bust, because everybody knows that a player is a finished product, when he turns 20. He is so done.

Yeah completely agree, no use for low post players that draw double and triple teams anymore. No use for a big man other teams need to adjust and gameplan for. I mean if you're not a 6'7 stringbean that shoots threes all game long at the position of power forward you have no business being in the NBA. This is the small ball era dammit! So many teams are winning rings! We can be just like Golden State! Easily!!!!! Just gotta find a Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, and Draymond Green.
I'm gonna horse laugh when the Warriors win 75 games and then lose to the throwback Spurs in the playoffs.

[rallydurham]

No one is saying he needs to retire. Just that he doesn't really fit with Noel and i think noel is the one to build around.

NBA players have a lot more value when they are young and have potential. The more teams get to go against Okafor the more comfortable they'll get abusing him defensively and the less they'll be willing to give up for him.

Also, I think his injuries will continue to mount. Just something about his body. He gimped around like an old man in his freshman year at duke. I just don't think he's going to age particularly well and he's already having trouble hanging in there now athletically.

Drawing a double team isn't nearly as important as it was during the illegal defense era. Back then you could postup Charles barkley, force the double, and he could easily hit the open man. Now the double can come from many different angles, they can front the entry, etc. And even the best postup men are barely efficient enough to make it a viable offensive strategy anymore. If okafor drawing attention from defenders was really as effective as you make it sound he'd be averaging more than 1 assist.

He's shooting okay from the field and his ft% is surprisingly high, but it's just not worth making an extreme sacrifice on rebounding and defense to have a big man who can score. I'm not saying you want a total zero offensively lIke biyombo but you really just need a guy who can set the pick and dive to the basket to free up your scorers.

I think Philly realizes this and I think they were kinda sick drafting Okafor in the first place. Between the potential off court issues, injuries, and drama if he doesn't get minutes behind noel and embiid... I think it's imperative they move him this offseason before his trade value declines further

[ET Da Gawd]

nerlens is an accessory player, you do not build around role players. Okafor might have the best post game in the league already, we need high IG players who know how to properly play off cuts and move off ball. You dont trade an Okafor or Embiid, especially in todays league where bigs with true offensive talent are at a minimum. We have 2...if you can't build off two bigs you simply do not understand how basketball works. GSW literally has every team thinking they need to chuck 3s to win. You need the proper personnel and talent to do so. Our build is not like GSW due to us lacking the best 3pt shooting backcourt in the league. We can potentially have a top3 frontcourt next season, thats a great piece to build off of. Nerlens and Dario will not be starters if this franchise wants to win a chip and not just get happy with a 3 seed (at best) and 2nd rd exit every year (if that). In the playoffs you need players who can iso and kill their man. Okafor and Embiid fit that role. Spoonfeeding nerlens all game does not put you in position to be a dominant franchise.

[Ericb5]

No one is saying he needs to retire. Just that he doesn't really fit with Noel and i think noel is the one to build around.

NBA players have a lot more value when they are young and have potential. The more teams get to go against Okafor the more comfortable they'll get abusing him defensively and the less they'll be willing to give up for him.

Also, I think his injuries will continue to mount. Just something about his body. He gimped around like an old man in his freshman year at duke. I just don't think he's going to age particularly well and he's already having trouble hanging in there now athletically.

Drawing a double team isn't nearly as important as it was during the illegal defense era. Back then you could postup Charles barkley, force the double, and he could easily hit the open man. Now the double can come from many different angles, they can front the entry, etc. And even the best postup men are barely efficient enough to make it a viable offensive strategy anymore. If okafor drawing attention from defenders was really as effective as you make it sound he'd be averaging more than 1 assist.

He's shooting okay from the field and his ft% is surprisingly high, but it's just not worth making an extreme sacrifice on rebounding and defense to have a big man who can score. I'm not saying you want a total zero offensively lIke biyombo but you really just need a guy who can set the pick and dive to the basket to free up your scorers.

I think Philly realizes this and I think they were kinda sick drafting Okafor in the first place. Between the potential off court issues, injuries, and drama if he doesn't get minutes behind noel and embiid... I think it's imperative they move him this offseason before his trade value declines further

Potential off court issues? He has no off court issues. He reacted poorly to a couple of early situations, but he is a good kid, with a good head on his shoulders. There is nothing to worry about from that stand point. This isn't Johnny Manziel here.

You make a valid point about the different kind of double teams that happen these days, but that doesn't change the fact that having someone that can attract double teams is still a devastating offensive weapon. He averages one assist currently because his teammates stink. Many times he gets the ball in situations where he is out of position or forced to move too quickly.

Competent point guard play, competent shooters, and experience will see him get up into the 3.5-4.0 range with assists quickly.

He is a smart player that is poised and skilled. He has shown no tendency to be selfish. He will pass the ball when that is the smart play.


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[rallydurham]

I disagree fairly vehemently with it being important to have a low post scorer in the modern NBA.

The game has simply changed too much. It's difficult to even compete with two bigs on the floor anymore because of spacing issues on offense and the inability to defend.

In the old days if a team went small you could punish them in the post. That's just not the case anymore.

The 76ers defensive rating is horrific with Okafor on the floor. His offensive game is already fairly developed and the results weren't exactly spectacular. You can disagree but the evidence is overwhelming that building around post-play is less than ideal now.

Cousins is close to setting an NBA usage record. How's that goink? (sic)

[76ciology]

I disagree fairly vehemently with it being important to have a low post scorer in the modern NBA.

The game has simply changed too much. It's difficult to even compete with two bigs on the floor anymore because of spacing issues on offense and the inability to defend.

In the old days if a team went small you could punish them in the post. That's just not the case anymore.

The 76ers defensive rating is horrific with Okafor on the floor. His offensive game is already fairly developed and the results weren't exactly spectacular. You can disagree but the evidence is overwhelming that building around post-play is less than ideal now.

Cousins is close to setting an NBA usage record. How's that goink? (sic)

Yes, post play is not ideal. But with the right system and players you can counter/beat the current trend just like what the Spurs is planning to do.

How? Have bigs that are mobile enough that can defend at the perimeter (see LMA defend against warriors compared to how he was used with the Blazers), while being able to abuse smaller defenders (at the post and off second chances). Have wings who can space the floor and protect the rim when the bigs are at the perimeter. Offensively, you need to be biased with having guys who can score around 20 or more with high TS%.

It's still an experiment for now, thus the anticipation of the Warriors-Spurs series. If Spurs is able to beat the Warriors this way, then they again would set a trend where there's an increase of value in mobile/scoring PFs and space/rim
Protector SFs. (Other cases: Mavs, Magic, Bucks and Celtics)

[rallydurham]

The Spurs are likely gonna play just Aldridge and Leonard when GSW goes small. Or like in the past they've used Diaw because he can back guys down and aldridge has range.

I highly doubt we see much Duncan in that series

[ET Da Gawd]

The Spurs are likely gonna play just Aldridge and Leonard when GSW goes small. Or like in the past they've used Diaw because he can back guys down and aldridge has range.

I highly doubt we see much Duncan in that series

You must not know what tim duncan does in the playoffs...he'll be eating. He always wakes up when the real season starts
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lohZ9CN4QDk[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iviKH8dnNY4[/youtube]

[rallydurham]

I don't think he really plays vs the warriors. I think that's why they got LMA.

It's possible they plan on trying to play them together but I don't see it.

[bedjawII]

I don't think he really plays vs the warriors. I think that's why they got LMA.

It's possible they plan on trying to play them together but I don't see it.

So you think Pop is going to sit the greatest PF of all time? Ok! Pop is great because he maximizes what he has and doesn't over react to what other teams do. If the Spurs are to win TD and LMA have to be big factors.

[rallydurham]

That's one of the most misguided statements I've ever read. Popp always makes adjustments. Maybe you missed their last title where they sat splitter for diaw.

Tim Duncan being the greatest pf of alltime is irrelevant. I didn't say he was gonna bench him in 2005.

They had tracy McGrady one year too and they didnt play him. Is he not one of the greatest players of alltime?

Duncan has barely played vs the warriors and i see that continuing in the playoffs. Popp wants to win, don't kid yourself. Hes loyal but he's going to try to win and i don't think that involves much duncan.

I could be wrong about that, but you're so far off base by saying Popp doesn't make adjustmeets that my point is still valid. It's certainly possible they try to go big with duncan and LMA. Personally I think they go With diaw and LMA combo. Diaw has a good post game and offers more flexibility. I think duncan is a bad match up vs golden state.

[76ciology]

The Spurs are likely gonna play just Aldridge and Leonard when GSW goes small. Or like in the past they've used Diaw because he can back guys down and aldridge has range.

I highly doubt we see much Duncan in that series

Call me crazy, but I think LMA is a better suited big against the Warriors.

He's a more mobile defender at the perimeter and he is a better scorer than TD at this age. TD plays a similar role to what Bogut or Ezeli plays for the Warriors (he and Boban are going to get matched-up with both guys), a rim protector when both teams play big.

In 2 games against the Warriors, both LMA and Kawhi are tied with around 95-96 ORTG and 100-102 DRTG. I also think that the LMA-Diaw is the way to go against small ball.

[76ciology]

I don't think he really plays vs the warriors. I think that's why they got LMA.

It's possible they plan on trying to play them together but I don't see it.

I found it odd when Spurs went for LMA, who I considered as overrated and inefficient and do compared him to Greg Monroe during the FA based on analytics. I also found it odd that they went for David West, when the team seemed to consider him obsolete in this day and age.

West, Diaw and LMA are all mobile bigs who can defend at the perimeter and play bullyball against smaller bigs. Spurs counter small ball this way, while having rim protector wings in Danny Green and Kawhi when ever the bigs are out playing D. It's a similar kind of defense the Heat employ with Bosh-Wade/LBJ dynamics.

[76ciology]

Yes, post play is not ideal. But with the right system and players you can counter/beat the current trend just like what the Spurs is planning to do.

How? Have bigs that are mobile enough that can defend at the perimeter (see LMA defend against warriors compared to how he was used with the Blazers), while being able to abuse smaller defenders (at the post and off second chances). Have wings who can space the floor and protect the rim when the bigs are at the perimeter. Offensively, you need to be biased with having guys who can score around 20 or more with high TS%.

It's still an experiment for now, thus the anticipation of the Warriors-Spurs series. If Spurs is able to beat the Warriors this way, then they again would set a trend where there's an increase of value in mobile/scoring PFs and space/rim
Protector SFs. (Other cases: Mavs, Magic, Bucks and Celtics)

Slightly related.

See how Spurs defend Curry, how it relates to my point of how a big mobile big who can step out and defend at the perimeter and punish smaller bigs do a good counter against small ball. While wings needs to be able to provide good rim protection such as Danny Green who's the top SG shotblocker and elite wing defender in Kawhi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=be0z4yRDo58

[thenbaman]

The game has changed because of the lack of bigs and nothing more,its always been about great bigs and always will,
those,s that want to keep noel over oak are showing there lack of bb knowledge.

[HotelVitale]

He's shooting okay from the field and his ft% is surprisingly high, but it's just not worth making an extreme sacrifice on rebounding and defense to have a big man who can score.

Over the two last two full months he played before the injury, Okafor shot 60% TS and posted about 18ppg (and about 22.5pts per 36). That's in the elite range of guys like AD and Harden and CP3, just a small step below the god tier that's basically just KD and Curry. People who talk like you do imply that he'll just be Al Jefferson--good volume, average efficiency--when he has every chance to be much much better.

I think most of us who watched him the whole year think he's more like the player from the last two months of the season than the earlier part. I wouldn't say he'll plow through all of next year averaging 22+ on 60% TS, but I think he's a significantly more dangerous offensive prospect than his detractors are thinking at the moment. I'd still like to see him traded for the right price, but that's with the understanding that we'd be giving up AD on offense (and Al J on defense).