WIP: Rumblings about a trade with Iguodala?

UptownPhilly · Post #81 » by **UptownPhilly** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:52 pm

Outproduced? What are you talkin about? In the regular season, Iguodala and McGrady are fairly close in each category. That's not up for debate. Although, T-MAC shot 29% from 3 pt land, Iguodala only shot 32%. That's not good at all either.

Let's go to the playoffs, where production really matters. T-Mac averaged 27 ppg, 8rpg, and 7apg.
Compare that to Iguodala's horrible series against Detroit, in which he averaged 13.2 ppg, 5rpg, and 5apg with worse shooting percentages.

As I said before, T-Mac is a much better scorer and would take this team to a higher level of play than Iguodala can.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/tracy_mcgrady/
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/andre_iguodala/index.html

Loose Cannon · Post #82 » by **Loose Cannon** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:42 pm

T-Mac slumped big time this year and was forced to carry the load when Yao went out...he's definitely a better scorer than Iguodala, though, as much as it pains me to say.

His back hasn't been a health issue since '06, there have been other things hindering him, but not his back.

51X3RF4N · Post #83 » by **51X3RF4N** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:48 pm

Didn't he play through some big injury and actually shine? He scored a crap load of points...wasn't it the playoffs or something?

Loose Cannon · Post #84 » by **Loose Cannon** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:22 pm

51X3RF4N wrote:Didn't he play through some big injury and actually shine? He scored a crap load of points...wasn't it the playoffs or something?

He sustained little knee problems, shoulder strains, elbow injuries, etc. and was battling a lot of it during the regular season. When Yao went out, he was literally a one-man army, had to facilitate and be leading scorer because everyone else on the team wasn't doing jack. You saw him drastically adjust his style, notably in the Playoffs because he had to preserve energy to play harder in the 4th...if anyone watched Game 6 (where he put up 40, which I assume you're talking about), the guy played his heart out to keep the Rockets in the game. Really a surprise to me that the Rockets even won 2 in the series, but it's a true testament to Tracy's heart.

76ciology · Post #85 » by **76ciology** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:22 am

Stop this madness! T-mac is DEFINITELY better than Iguodala.

51X3RF4N · Post #86 » by **51X3RF4N** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:40 am

Not only that, weren't the Rockets a team that did something amazing last season? Like some kind of winning streak....and with only TMac as their main guy. Hm...guess he is no good. Iggy only had guys like LouWill, Thad, Evans, Dalembert, and Miller around him.

Post #87 » by **Sixerscan** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:44 am

Of course he's better, but is he $8-9 million a year better? And considering the fact that he's 5 years older, has played 14,000 more minutes, and the direction his performance has gone in the last few years, how much longer can we really expect him to be better?

76ciology · Post #88 » by **76ciology** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:55 am

Still would have him over Iggy..

Team needs = check
Talent wise = check

OhhBF · Post #89 » by **OhhBF** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:04 am

Sixerscan wrote:Of course he's better, but is he $8-9 million a year better? And considering the fact that he's 5 years older, has played 14,000 more minutes, and the direction his performance has gone in the last few years, how much longer can we really expect him to be better?

2 years? If they were able to include Green in the deal, it would easily offset the difference in salary between Iguodala and TMac IMO.

PowerElite · Post #90 » by **PowerElite** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:52 pm

Having Thad develop around a great perimeter wing man like McGrady would be an added benefit as well. We'll have Speights leaching from Brand and Thad leaching from McGrady.

51X3RF4N · Post #91 » by **51X3RF4N** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:20 pm

Sixerscan wrote:Of course he's better, but is he $8-9 million a year better? And considering the fact that he's 5 years older, has played 14,000 more minutes, and the direction his performance has gone in the last few years, how much longer can we really expect him to be better?

Considering the fact that he still had enough in him last season to pull of 21 straight wins with a so-so team in a tough western conference, I would say he is still fine. If we can expect 2 years from him, that's all we need. We make a SERIOUS run at a title and then let him walk.

jmon · Post #92 » by **jmon** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:43 am

I don't know.

0708 Iguodala 0708 McGrady
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/ ... 01&y4=2008

0708 Iguodala 0607 McGrady
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/ ... 01&y4=2007

Is a McGrady for 60 games better than an Iguodala for 80?

Also, McGrady isn't a "scorer." His scoring is really inefficient. He is a very fine all around player. He reminds me of Rasheed Wallace. He does everything well. The only difference is McGrady is terrific when it comes to his "playmaking abilities." He essentially runs the point for his team. I think his game, besides the horrible occasional shots, is very fun to watch and it helps his team win.

Give me Iguodala at 13 per for 80 games a season over McGrady at 22 per for 60 games a season.

UptownPhilly · Post #93 » by **UptownPhilly** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:12 am

It makes no sense to say that T-Mac is not a scorer.

* He's won two scoring titles throughout his career(2003 + 2004)

* He's tallied up 16,744 points in an 11 year career(749 games played)

* He was the 3rd leading scorer in the 2008 playoffs, behind Kobe and Lebron, with an average of 27ppg

* He's #25 on the all time ppg list and will more than likely end up with 20,000 pts + before he retires.

To say that he's not the most accurate shooter is correct. To say that his overall game(or numbers for that matter) has declined in years can be rationalized. However, there's really no way to justify that he is not a scorer.

Opposing teams focus their defense solely on T-Mac when they play the Rockets. He is just as much of a threat as Yao, if not more.

UptownPhilly · Post #94 » by **UptownPhilly** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:18 am

I can understand why you would want Iguodala on your team over Tracy McGrady. He's younger, is more conditioned, a better defender, and has good potential.

However, to compare them offensively is a joke. Iguodala will never be as talented a player, or as much of an offensive threat as Tracy McGrady.

76ersFan1 · Post #95 » by **76ersFan1** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:27 pm

i dont really know how much "potential" iguodala has. do you really expect him to increase his numbers, i dont expect him to start scoring 25 points a game this year and his RPG hasn't improved at all during his career. What Iguodala is now is what we are going to get with him

51X3RF4N · Post #96 » by **51X3RF4N** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:03 pm

Why would Iggy's numbers improve? Brand, Thad, LW will all be scoring more. Speights will get more time and score more. Iggy's defensive numbers may rise a bit. But offensively, rebounding, assists, will all decrease IMO. And I really don't see any reason why, if we are going for a championship, we would not want TMac over Iggy. RIGHT NOW, TMac is the better player. Iggy just isn't there yet. Even if TMac declines, Iggy is not rising to a declined TMac status yet. If you are talking about winning the title, and having either of the two, I want TMac. I don't care about Defense wins Championships. Tell me the first team in the last 10 years to win a Title that didn't have at least one elite level player. None. Lakers had Kobe and Shaq. Pistons had Sheed/Billups/Rip, with Sheed being the superstar(as much as it pains me to say), Rip and Billups being All-Star supporting cast. And Prince. Another All-Star guy. Boston had Pierce and KG. San Antonio has Duncan, Parker, and Manu.

We now have Brand. Iggy does not fit into the same category as any of those guys yet. They are all still a cut above him. TMac fits. Brand and TMac. I would think with that kind of firepower, Dalembert, and Miller, LW off the bench, and a developing Thad, we have a VERY good shot in the next 2 years of bringing a trophy to Philly. And that's the ultimate goal. I don't think Iggy can be on a team as a second option and win a title. At least not in the next 2 years.

ChuckS · Post #97 » by **ChuckS** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:08 pm

Boy would I love TMac on this team. I didn't read the whole thread. Did I miss something suggesting how we are going to get a twenty one million dollar player for someone we do not want to pay $11mil? Maybe Andre, Reggie, Jason, and someone else might do it, but I wonder if it is feasible to have more than two thirds of our cap tied up in two players. Certainly we would be talking luxury tax eventually. I wonder what Snider's feelings are on that. Then too, this year would require us to fill up the balance of the team with eight veteran minimum type players. That seems hardly a championship roster.

If I had to dream about a title with McGrady and Brand, and if it might be a flight of fancy, I would prefer that team include Iguodala instead of Thad and Lou...at least until Williams proves he can beat out and outshoot Willie Green, and Thad disproves my belief that he will not be an exceptional (TMac/Pierce like) scorer.

I have nothing against any good young player, and potential is a wonderful thing. I just prefer my dreams filled with more proven performance. I could live with Rip, who makes about the same, and with whom we would not sacrifice too much defense for the scoring. I know what Dumars said, but I doubt that he really wants to lose Hamilton.

Andre took less that sixteen shots per game this year. I'm sure there will be enough for Thad and Lou. Brand has always been an efficient scorer, who also has averaged less than 16 per game. The way this team has played under Mo Cheeks, I doubt anyone (but Sam) will worry about their scoring numbers if they are winning.

jmon · Post #98 » by **jmon** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:05 pm

Roletagg wrote:To say that he's not the most accurate shooter is correct. To say that his overall game(or numbers for that matter) has declined in years can be rationalized. However, there's really no way to justify that he is not a scorer.

Last year, Iguodala was as good or a better scorer by the numbers. You can rationalize that this was because Iguodala was in a "better situation" or because he "had a point guard" or because "TMac played injured all year," but the numbers will still say the same things. I don't feel like getting into an argument about which player had a better supporting cast because that is going to be subjective. The Rockets, overall, had a better offense though.

Roletagg wrote:I can understand why you would want Iguodala on your team over Tracy McGrady. He's younger, is more conditioned, a better defender, and has good potential.

However, to compare them offensively is a joke. Iguodala will never be as talented a player, or as much of an offensive threat as Tracy McGrady.

What will change next year that would make McGrady better? He has chronic back issues.

76ersFan1 wrote:i dont really know how much "potential" iguodala has. do you really expect him to increase his numbers, i dont expect him to start scoring 25 points a game this year and his RPG hasn't improved at all during his career. What Iguodala is now is what we are going to get with him

Is McGrady a "generational player" like Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, Jordan, Bird, Magic? If not, then I want to go the route without the 25 ppg scorer. I would not mind McGrady scoring 20 more efficiently like what Pierce did last year. But 25 ppg from him would just throw the whole offense off. Health is my concern with McGrady and his decline due to health.

Why can't Iguodala get better? He is entering his 5th year and has gotten better every year... why can't he continue on this track. Kobe just had his best season at like 30 or whatever. Not everyone is Tim Duncan aka a beast the second they step on the floor.

51X3RF4N wrote:Why would Iggy's numbers improve? Brand, Thad, LW will all be scoring more. Speights will get more time and score more. Iggy's defensive numbers may rise a bit. But offensively, rebounding, assists, will all decrease IMO.

There is your answer. Less pressure on Iguodala. His scoring may drop, but his %s will surely rise and his TOs will go down. Why would his assists go down? And why wouldn't McGrady's numbers go down with a change of scenery as well according to your logic?

51X3RF4N wrote:
And I really don't see any reason why, if we are going for a championship, we would not want TMac over Iggy. RIGHT NOW, TMac is the better player. Iggy just isn't there yet.

Explain to me what the numbers from last year aren't showing.

51X3RF4N wrote:
Even if TMac declines, Iggy is not rising to a declined TMac status yet.

The numbers disagree.

51X3RF4N wrote:
If you are talking about winning the title, and having either of the two, I want TMac. I don't care about Defense wins Championships. Tell me the first team in the last 10 years to win a Title that didn't have at least one elite level player. None. Lakers had Kobe and Shaq. Pistons had Sheed/Billups/Rip, with Sheed being the superstar(as much as it pains me to say), Rip and Billups being All-Star supporting cast. And Prince. Another All-Star guy. Boston had Pierce and KG. San Antonio has Duncan, Parker, and Manu.

In case you were unaware, the Pistons had one all star the year they made it to the championship. HINT: You didn't name him. And Prince isn't an "all-star guy." He never made one.

Your point is invalid. The Pistons had ZERO. Billups, etc were named "elite" after winning championships to attempt to keep this "thumb rule" in place. Iguodala is on the same level as Parker, Rip.

McGrady is a fine defensive player as well, so I don't see the point here either. There is a reason why the Rockets are the 2nd best defensive team in the NBA and he is part of it. Battier is a bigger part of it admittedly, but TMac is a very fine defensive player.

Loose Cannon · Post #99 » by **Loose Cannon** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:25 pm

jmon wrote:Last year, Iguodala was as good or a better scorer by the numbers. You can rationalize that this was because Iguodala was in a "better situation" or because he "had a point guard" or because "TMac played injured all year," but the numbers will still say the same things. I don't feel like getting into an argument about which player had a better supporting cast because that is going to be subjective. The Rockets, overall, had a better offense though.

Your numbers don't take into account that Tracy was playing with a nagging knee and shoulder injury all year (he got surgery on both immediately after the season ended) and was stuck carrying his team when Yao went down. He's a better scorer than Iguodala...it's not even arguable.

What will change next year that would make McGrady better? He has chronic back issues.

Wrong, he hasn't had back issues since 2006, it's been other small tick-tack injuries that have been bothering him since.

Tracy is by far the better scorer, and still is the superior scorer even when hampered by the knee and shoulder injuries. Did you see the playoffs?

P2K · Post #100 » by **P2K** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:38 pm

You have officially lost your argument with these two quotes...

jmon wrote:
Why can't Iguodala get better? He is entering his 5th year and has gotten better every year... why can't he continue on this track. Kobe just had his best season at like 30 or whatever. Not everyone is Tim Duncan aka a beast the second they step on the floor.

In case you were unaware, the Pistons had one all star the year they made it to the championship. HINT: You didn't name him. And Prince isn't an "all-star guy." He never made one.

Your point is invalid. The Pistons had ZERO. Billups, etc were named "elite" after winning championships to attempt to keep this "thumb rule" in place. Iguodala is on the same level as Parker, Rip.

Putting Iguodala and Kobe in the same sentence equals a no-no. Don't ever, ever do that again.

And on top of that, coming into the league as a rookie, Kobe had more talent in his pinky toe than Iguodala had as a rookie. Hell, even Iguodala's talent NOW.

And to say Iguodala is on the same level as Tony Parker and Rip Hamilton is sheer nuttiness. You oughta have your posting privileges revoked for that sentence alone.

And also, the Pistons were a special team. Very different than what history dictates how championships are usually won. You won't see a team like that come around for a long time.