G.O.A.T

J-Mezzy · Post #61 » by **J-Mezzy** » Sat Mar 2, 2013 11:42 pm

I don't think Zidane is the GOAT, but he is better than both Messi and CR7 at this point of their career.

Either way, I don't really have a problem with anyone who thinks Ronaldo is the better player. Ronaldo is an amazing player. The issue is this whole idea of Messi being a choker in order to pimp Ronaldo. Messi has won the CL 3 times (2 as their best player), 5 Liga titles, has the record for most goals scored against Madrid (18), has scored 55 goals in the CL, has broken several scoring records, etc.

He has been huge for Argentina this WC qualifiers as well playing on a different role. He is their leading scorer even without having Iniesta and Xavi create for him. I know his Argentina history is not the greatest, but he has been brilliant since he switched to a more central position. Argentina has a poor midfield and he has become the creator and play maker for them. Maybe

I do agree that there has to be a change in these type of games where he is neutralized. My opinion is for Barcelona to get a real striker and move Messi to a more central position for these kind of games so that he can create with his dribbling and pinpoint passing. Having Messi as the central striker on games like the Chelsea and Milan games is kind of pointless.

Post #62 » by **5DOM** » Sat Mar 2, 2013 11:48 pm

I think Messi is already ahead of Zidane tbh

J-Mezzy · Post #63 » by **J-Mezzy** » Sat Mar 2, 2013 11:55 pm

5DOM wrote:I think Messi is already ahead of Zidane tbh

The only reason I have Zidane ahead of Messi is due to his national team success. I know that France team was loaded, but Messi has to lead Argentina at least deep into a WC in order for me to put him ahead of someone like Zidane. Club wise, I will take Messi ahead of Zidane.

Man of Steel · Post #64 » by **Man of Steel** » Sun Mar 3, 2013 12:47 am

J-Mezzy wrote:
I do agree that there has to be a change in these type of games where he is neutralized. My opinion is for Barcelona to get a real striker and move Messi to a more central position for these kind of games so that he can create with his dribbling and pinpoint passing. Having Messi as the central striker on games like the Chelsea and Milan games is kind of pointless.

They were doing this two years ago. Messi was playing his best football (maybe not statistically, but he was doing what his team needed and they were winning because of it). I didn't believe it at first but with the rumours of them shopping Sanchez, it looks more and more obvious. They want Messi to play CF and they tend to push players who want to remain in that spot towards the exit. With Messi playing CF he breaks ridiculous scoring records, but their shaky form over the last two years (in comparison) proves it's actually detrimental to the team's success. IMO choking is simply not being able to perform against big teams the way you do against other opposition. By that definition he has been choking over the last two years, and I think until they return him to his original position and buy a striker or play Villa, they will continue to struggle in trying to regain their form. He's still a great player, but it's like trying to play Cris as a striker, he's just not as comfortable there because his physical and technical attributes are more suited to the wing position. They've sacrificed his ability to create in lieu of statistics for him, so he doesn't take on a large number of defenders on the break the way he did earlier on in his career.

J-Mezzy · Post #65 » by **J-Mezzy** » Sun Mar 3, 2013 1:20 am

If you feel that he's playing out of position, how could you say he's choking?

I do agree that Barcelona was at their best when he wasn't the CF.

Man of Steel · Post #66 » by **Man of Steel** » Sun Mar 3, 2013 2:44 am

Imo choking is not being able to do in big games what you're capable of doing against weaker opposition.

Foye · Post #67 » by **Foye** » Sun Mar 3, 2013 2:47 am

luisnani wrote:Imo choking is not being able to do in big games what you're capable of doing against weaker opposition.

Hasn't Messi scored like 18 Clasico goals already in his career? #choker. :lol:

Post #68 » by **5DOM** » Sun Mar 3, 2013 3:29 am

0 goals in 8 games against Chelsea 8-)

As far as I'm concerned, those are the ONLY important games :nod:

J-Mezzy · Post #69 » by **J-Mezzy** » Sun Mar 3, 2013 12:23 pm

Foye wrote:
luisnani wrote:Imo choking is not being able to do in big games what you're capable of doing against weaker opponents.
Hasn't Messi scored like 18 Clasico goals already in his career? #choker.

This. Besides, the whole big game thing since like an arbitrary term. He didn't play well against Milan on the first leg of this round of CL so we criticize him for failing to show up for a big game, but he scored 5 goals on a game on this same stage of the CL last year. Well, he has to do it against a big club like Milan! He disposed of Milan last year on the quarter finals of the CL. Well, he has to do it against Madrid! He scored 2 goals against them in the super cup final, he scored 2 goals on their first meeting in la liga, assisted on the first game of the Copa del Rey against Madrid, and scored on the 2nd meeting for la liga. That's 5 goals and 1 assist in 6 games this season. Hardly call that choking. I am not even going to bother looking up last year's stats because it's pointless.

Milan this year and Chelsea this year have done magnificent jobs at taking him and the whole Barcelona squad out of the game, give them credit for that instead of claiming that Messi fails to show on important games. Madrid this year is simply better than Barcelona regardless of what their la liga record says. I'll give them credit too.

Blank_Name · Post #70 » by **Blank_Name** » Mon Mar 4, 2013 10:35 am

5DOM wrote:0 goals in 8 games against Chelsea

As far as I'm concerned, those are the ONLY important games

Damn, how have the two teams matched up that many times. Messi isn't old

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Blank_Name · Post #71 » by **Blank_Name** » Mon Mar 4, 2013 10:46 am

J-Mezzy wrote:
Foye wrote:
luisnani wrote:Imo choking is not being able to do in big games what you're capable of doing against weaker opponents.
Hasn't Messi scored like 18 Clasico goals already in his career? #choker.

This. Besides, the whole big game thing since like an arbitrary term. He didn't play well against Milan on the first leg of this round of CL so we criticize him for failing to show up for a big game, but he scored 5 goals on a game on this same stage of the CL last year. Well, he has to do it against a big club like Milan! He disposed of Milan last year on the quarter finals of the CL. Well, he has to do it against Madrid! He scored 2 goals against them in the super cup final, he scored 2 goals on their first meeting in la liga, assisted on the first game of the Copa del Rey against Madrid, and scored on the 2nd meeting for la liga. That's 5 goals and 1 assist in 6 games this season. Hardly call that choking. I am not even going to bother looking up last year's stats because it's pointless.

Milan this year and Chelsea this year have done magnificent jobs at taking him and the whole Barcelona squad out of the game, give them credit for that instead of claiming that Messi fails to show on important games. Madrid this year is simply better than Barcelona regardless of what their la liga record says. I'll give them credit too.

This is the backlash created when UEFA decided to award every Barcelona player like they were on a Finale tour.

Although the gap has decreased, Messi has the better teammates than CR7 and they have been for the most part healthier.

Conflict is good for us fans. Lets remember how the season began for CR7, not just Portugal struggles but his quotes about being personally unhappy at RM. Nothing but good karma was on Messi's side. Now the situations have flipped. It's better for Messi long term because it's been a while World Cup 2010 (?) since he's been critically challenged like this. Things were coming too easily and people (myself included) have taken him for granted. Fortunately for him, he has one final UCL leg to regain his stature

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cgf · Post #72 » by **cgf** » Mon Mar 4, 2013 4:01 pm

Wait, did I just read that Zidane is the GOAT? lol Zidane was awesome, and he won a lot, but he's not even close to the top 4, Pele, Messi, Beckenbauer, Cruyff. Hell I wouldn't put Zidane over the likes of Netzer, Rummenigge, Fat Ronaldo, Di Stefano, Puzkas, Garrincha, etc.

Blank_Name · Post #73 » by **Blank_Name** » Mon Mar 4, 2013 4:44 pm

cgf wrote:Wait, did I just read that Zidane is the GOAT? lol Zidane was awesome, and he won a lot, but he's not even close to the top 4, Pele, Messi, Beckenbauer, Cruyff. Hell I wouldn't put Zidane over the likes of Netzer, Rummenigge, Fat Ronaldo, Di Stefano, Puzkas, Garrincha, etc.

There is no way Messi is better than Zidane. Is there anything that Messi is better at than Zidane? Dribbling in very tight areas maybe

2006 Italy would have made Messi cry

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Post #74 » by **5DOM** » Mon Mar 4, 2013 5:04 pm

It would have helped his team a great deal if Zidane simply cried instead of headbutting Materazzi.

It's unfair to compare players who play different positions, but Messi's nearly five times the goalscorer Zidane is btw.

Foye · Post #75 » by **Foye** » Mon Mar 4, 2013 5:38 pm

5DOM wrote:It would have helped his team a great deal if Zidane simply cried instead of headbutting Materazzi.

It's unfair to compare players who play different positions, but Messi's nearly five times the goalscorer Zidane is btw.

Lol. So true.

MaliBrah · Post #76 » by **MaliBrah** » Mon Mar 4, 2013 5:53 pm

cgf wrote:Wait, did I just read that Zidane is the GOAT? lol Zidane was awesome, and he won a lot, but he's not even close to the top 4, Pele, Messi, Beckenbauer, Cruyff. Hell I wouldn't put Zidane over the likes of Netzer, Rummenigge, Fat Ronaldo, Di Stefano, Puzkas, Garrincha, etc.

what an overstatement

cgf · Post #77 » by **cgf** » Mon Mar 4, 2013 8:58 pm

Blank_Name wrote:
cgf wrote:Wait, did I just read that Zidane is the GOAT? lol Zidane was awesome, and he won a lot, but he's not even close to the top 4, Pele, Messi, Beckenbauer, Cruyff. Hell I wouldn't put Zidane over the likes of Netzer, Rummenigge, Fat Ronaldo, Di Stefano, Puzkas, Garrincha, etc.

There is no way Messi is better than Zidane. Is there anything that Messi is better at than Zidane? Dribbling in very tight areas maybe

2006 Italy would have made Messi cry

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Whoops, I meant to type Maradona...but I think Messi/Zidane is very debatable which is part of why I think neither touches the top 4 yet. Zidane won a lot and was a brilliant playmaker on the ball, but Messi has a clear advantage in goal scoring.

Post #78 » by **5DOM** » Mon Mar 4, 2013 9:16 pm

Wait.. you don't think Maradona's even close to the top 4?

Blank_Name · Post #79 » by **Blank_Name** » Mon Mar 4, 2013 9:40 pm

cgf wrote:
Blank_Name wrote:
cgf wrote:Wait, did I just read that Zidane is the GOAT? lol Zidane was awesome, and he won a lot, but he's not even close to the top 4, Pele, Messi, Beckenbauer, Cruyff. Hell I wouldn't put Zidane over the likes of Netzer, Rummenigge, Fat Ronaldo, Di Stefano, Puzkas, Garrincha, etc.

There is no way Messi is better than Zidane. Is there anything that Messi is better at than Zidane? Dribbling in very tight areas maybe

2006 Italy would have made Messi cry

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Whoops, I meant to type Maradona...but I think Messi/Zidane is very debatable which is part of why I think neither touches the top 4 yet. Zidane won a lot and was a brilliant playmaker on the ball, but Messi has a clear advantage in goal scoring.

Because Messi is a glorified goal poacher.

When is the last time Messi lined up with the lesser team mates? I'd love to see Suaraz in his shoes

Post #80 » by **Slava** » Mon Mar 4, 2013 9:48 pm

You lose all credibility with that last statement.

Who is the greatest of all time? (in terms of overall career not peaks.)