Football League Comparison Thread

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Re: Football League Comparison Thread 

Post#61 » by Ted Lasso » Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:09 am

Doormatt wrote:
magik9113 wrote:Italy is at the bottom, so there is only up from here.

For the past couple of years I have had no trouble admitting they are inferior to the other top 3 leagues, but next year things change

:)


And thankfully for Italy it has everything to do with infrastructure, which can be easily changed. New stadiums, new owners, and new financial policies are already being introduced for a lot of top team and mid tier Italian teams. Italy still produces quality players and quality teams despite being far behind the other leagues financially, which is a really good sign imo. Once the money starts flowing again Italy will be back on top, cuz top players will have a desire to play there.


Improving infrastructure alone won't catch Italy up. There are a number of issues they have to face once that is done - and it has to be done - such as relative lack of international following, strength of local economy, the tax issue, downturn of talent production*, occasional crowd trouble, acknowledging the Europa League, etc.

I don't think people quite appreciate the nosedive Italian football has taken in the past few years. I'm not saying all those issues have to be perfected, but they have a long way to go.

*I don't agree with you about the quality of players and teams at the moment. Where are these teams and players?
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Re: Football League Comparison Thread 

Post#62 » by Doormatt » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:19 am

Ted Lasso wrote:
Improving infrastructure alone won't catch Italy up. There are a number of issues they have to face once that is done - and it has to be done - such as relative lack of international following, strength of local economy, the tax issue, downturn of talent production*, occasional crowd trouble, acknowledging the Europa League, etc.


lol, strength of local economy isnt stopping spain from having a strong footballing presence, youre very far off there. spain ranks behind italy in GDP per capita, really any metric you want to use to rank strength of economy spain is behind italy. spains unemployment rate is DOUBLE that of italy, they are in the absolute ****. italy economically isnt far off from the UK really. no big european country touches Germany in terms of economic prosperity at the moment so yeah, thats really helping them thrive.

i mean a lot of things you referred to are directly effected by infrastructure. the REAL reason italian football has lagged behind is there unwillingness to accept foreign investment. just take a loot at roma for example and the absolute **** show rosella sensi was running while she was here. Pallotta isnt a rich sugar daddy but he knows a helluva lot more about how to run a successful business than the sensis and hes gotten roma back on track in a very short time, the right way. and even then it took an Italian american for them to accept foreign help.

and i also dont see how italy is having a downturn of talent production, in fact, milan and inter have essentially become feeder teams for a lot of big clubs. thiago silva, coutinho, santon, flamini, ibra, motta, etc. and inter already have a new owner so i expect things to change for them. if they would just keep their talent italy's top teams wouldnt be so far down in the standings.

i certainly dont hope youre referring to national team talent because that is almost as ridiculous as your local economy statement.

international following will come with TV deals, sponsorship, and a revived presence in european football. many italian teams are on the right track in that regard as well, hell Roma's new nike jerseys look really nice for next season.

and occasional crowd trouble is **** BS, that happens everywhere. new stadiums is the answer anyways, and as ive said a lot of teams are working towards fixing this. what you shouldve talked about is attendance. less people are going to games because the stadiums are old, therefore they dont feel safe and would rather watch it from home, especially because the crowd is so far away from the pitch in italian stadiums. new stadiums with closer seats, better security, and better design, will immensely help attendance.


I don't think people quite appreciate the nosedive Italian football has taken in the past few years. I'm not saying all those issues have to be perfected, but they have a long way to go.


i mean, its really not that long, italy isnt like greece or something. like i said, if both milan teams werent essentially feeder clubs for other teams, and if the investments had come sooner and with open arms, italy wouldnt be in this mess.

*I don't agree with you about the quality of players and teams at the moment. Where are these teams and players?


...i dont understand, do you watch Serie A? i mean if you dont think Juventus are a quality team then i guess everyone outside of like chelsea, bayern and real madrid arent quality. Juve were in the CL quarter finals last year and lost to the best team in the world, how are they not quality? roma play quality football as well, so do napoli and fiorentina when they are healthy.

as for as quality players, are you kidding? pogba, vidal, cuadrado, benatia, strootman, handanovic, i could go on for days here. i mean Man U are interested in dropping a boatload of cash for Pjanic and hes not even been romas best midfielder this year. i really dont even understand your question.

i feel like you have no idea what youre talking about.
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Re: Football League Comparison Thread 

Post#63 » by Ted Lasso » Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:15 am

And i feel like you are either absolutely dense or intellectually disingenuous to the power of 10 Massimos.

Apart from completely mischaracterising a number of things i've stated, you've chosen to individualize and then minimize the issues i listed. While that's a great way to play Nothin to See Here, Fellas, it does miss the point i implied originally, in that other top leagues have some of those issues too but they don't have all of them, which is why Spanish football, for example, hasn't sunk the way Italian football has, and why Italy have to fix at least some of them and not necessarily all of them. Btw, it's almost as though the aesthetics of Roma's new Nike kits doesn't make up for the monetary difference between their deal with Nike and Arsenal's deal with Puma.

Additionally, when i made the comment about Italy producing talent, i was referring to Italian talent. Or are we going to pretend that Italy produced Strootman? And the teams are an absolute disaster indeed. Their best team, the one that is running laps around the rest of the league, failed to make it past the group stage of the CL this season, and contrary to the regular attitude of the league, they are interested in pursuing the EL only because the final will be played at their stadium. Given the proud history of Italian football, that is a shameful state. Not only are they lacking in quality but their attitude has been rotten for years.

Clearly, you felt the need to lash out because you are new to the forum; consequently unfamiliar with my position on Italian football, and thought i was - i grimace at the sight of this word, but alas - a hater. To the contrary, i lived in Italy for a long, long time during the height of their football strength, it is still the league i am most emotionally tied to, and i am simply being realistic about what needs to be done.
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Re: Football League Comparison Thread 

Post#64 » by magik9113 » Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:10 pm

I have to go ref a youth game now...expect me to chime in at some point later in the day
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Re: Football League Comparison Thread 

Post#65 » by DD12 » Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:44 pm

Doormatt wrote:...i dont understand, do you watch Serie A? i mean if you dont think Juventus are a quality team then i guess everyone outside of like chelsea, bayern and real madrid arent quality. Juve were in the CL quarter finals last year and lost to the best team in the world, how are they not quality? roma play quality football as well, so do napoli and fiorentina when they are healthy.


I don't think that most people on here don't even watch Serie A games in which I understand perfectly. The games are usually low scoring, defensive mentalities etc etc. But this year, God's sake, Roma, Fiorentina, Juventus have played incredible matches. I bet, give them a couple years, they will be back to the top. Serie A is historically the most successful league in the world. Once they get stuff together, they will start winning again with no problem. They have the most important base which is they know how to defend and good defense will win you a lot of trophies.
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Re: Football League Comparison Thread 

Post#66 » by magik9113 » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:14 pm

Ted Lasso wrote:...

*I don't agree with you about the quality of players and teams at the moment. Where are these teams and players?

The talent is there. This is a comment I have been dealing with all my life, including-- believe it or not--2006 when the Italy team won the World Cup with a roster made strictly of Serie A players. I understand that Serie A was much stronger back then, but it is fresh in my memory people telling me that they can't get it done with the likes of Luca Toni, Gilardino, and Iaquinta as forwards. lol.

You are one of the classier/knowledgeable posters here, but I too must question if you ever get a chance to watch Serie A. Perhaps you are not aware that their U21 team made the Euro finals last summer only to lose to star-studded Spain in the final match. Their youth players do not get the hype that young players in other leagues do because Italy deals with them differently, and (obivously, aside from 2010 when they didn't call up any young players) this is a strategy that has been working....it is normal to see their best young talent on loan in Serie B until age 21. The occasional Balotellis and El Shaarawy's are rare exceptions to this.

Ciro Immobile is the leading scorer of Serie A. I don't know if anyone who posts here has ever seen him play. At the age of 24 he may not be considered "young" anymore, but in Italy he is. He spent 3 years in Serie B before finally getting a shot at Serie A last year. but he was always considered one of Italy's best young talents... it is only the newspapers abroad who wouldn't write a story about a 21 year old player in the 2nd division.

Immobile's u21 teammates Paloschi, Destro, and Gabbiadini are all in the top half of the scorers sheet...not to mention the even younger Berardi.

The top 4 teams in Italy have already been mentioned by DoorMatt and Massimo. It is a shame that Napoli/Juve went out of CL in group stages in such unfortunate fashion. and as I've said before, Roma and Fiorentina are better than Napoli.

There isn't much I can do if people don't know who the likes of Cerci and Candreva are. Heck, I figure people only speak so highly of De Rossi because every year he's rumored to go to Man U, Chelsea, or Real Madrid. Italians like to stay in Italy...the lack of international following has not prevented the Azzurri from succeeding and never will.
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Re: Football League Comparison Thread 

Post#67 » by Man of Steel » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:13 pm

They take their rivalries seriously in Greece. WoW.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2032 ... g-national
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Re: Football League Comparison Thread 

Post#68 » by Batu7 » Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:27 am

Man of Steel wrote:They take their rivalries seriously in Greece. WoW.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2032 ... g-national


Nice one. I'm used to the flares from here, but the fish thing is innovative. You gotta give them props for that.
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Re: Football League Comparison Thread 

Post#69 » by LittleOzzy » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:21 am

This hasn't been debated in awhile.... How far away is MLS from being a top 10 league in the world?

Are they even in the top 15 at this point? And do you think they will ever reach the top 10?
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Re: Football League Comparison Thread 

Post#70 » by Cactus Jack » Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:16 am

LittleOzzy wrote:This hasn't been debated in awhile.... How far away is MLS from being a top 10 league in the world?

Are they even in the top 15 at this point? And do you think they will ever reach the top 10?

I'd say its easily in the top 15. Maybe even top 10 now. I don't see how it isn't? I mean just in the last few years its reputation has grown exponentially. As long as players like Dempsey, Kaka, David Villa, Pirlo, Lampard, Gerrard, etc. keep coming over. It will only continue to rise. Now, obviously those players are in the twilight of their careers, but at least they are now considering MLS. Where as maybe 5 years ago, they wouldn't have. IF they formatted the league to those in Europe, it would help too. Like throw out the playoff format. Get rid of the current salary cap. The draft. Etc.
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Re: Football League Comparison Thread 

Post#71 » by BUCKnation » Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:18 am

They might just be phoning it in, but considering many of those names above haven't set the league on fire after being productive for their past teams in the recent past, might be a good sign of the quality of the league.
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Re: Football League Comparison Thread 

Post#72 » by LittleOzzy » Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:55 pm

Cactus Jack wrote:
LittleOzzy wrote:This hasn't been debated in awhile.... How far away is MLS from being a top 10 league in the world?

Are they even in the top 15 at this point? And do you think they will ever reach the top 10?

I'd say its easily in the top 15. Maybe even top 10 now. I don't see how it isn't? I mean just in the last few years its reputation has grown exponentially. As long as players like Dempsey, Kaka, David Villa, Pirlo, Lampard, Gerrard, etc. keep coming over. It will only continue to rise. Now, obviously those players are in the twilight of their careers, but at least they are now considering MLS. Where as maybe 5 years ago, they wouldn't have. IF they formatted the league to those in Europe, it would help too. Like throw out the playoff format. Get rid of the current salary cap. The draft. Etc.


I think the draft will be gone at some point, I don't think they will ever rid the league of the playoffs or salary cap though.

The cap clearly needs to be increased, and that will come in time. The playoffs though are so ingrained with North American sports fans that it just makes sense to keep it.

The regular season league winner still receives a trophy, so the playoffs are just as added bonus.
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Re: Football League Comparison Thread 

Post#73 » by Cactus Jack » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:08 pm

LittleOzzy wrote:
Cactus Jack wrote:
LittleOzzy wrote:This hasn't been debated in awhile.... How far away is MLS from being a top 10 league in the world?

Are they even in the top 15 at this point? And do you think they will ever reach the top 10?

I'd say its easily in the top 15. Maybe even top 10 now. I don't see how it isn't? I mean just in the last few years its reputation has grown exponentially. As long as players like Dempsey, Kaka, David Villa, Pirlo, Lampard, Gerrard, etc. keep coming over. It will only continue to rise. Now, obviously those players are in the twilight of their careers, but at least they are now considering MLS. Where as maybe 5 years ago, they wouldn't have. IF they formatted the league to those in Europe, it would help too. Like throw out the playoff format. Get rid of the current salary cap. The draft. Etc.


I think the draft will be gone at some point, I don't think they will ever rid the league of the playoffs or salary cap though.

The cap clearly needs to be increased, and that will come in time. The playoffs though are so ingrained with North American sports fans that it just makes sense to keep it.

The regular season league winner still receives a trophy, so the playoffs are just as added bonus.

Not a fan of the playoffs. Not needed. Other leagues have done just fine without one. I feel the same way about baseball. You play 162 games and you decide a champion on a best of 5 or 7 game series? Why?
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Re: Football League Comparison Thread 

Post#74 » by LittleOzzy » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:19 pm

Cactus Jack wrote:
LittleOzzy wrote:
Cactus Jack wrote:I'd say its easily in the top 15. Maybe even top 10 now. I don't see how it isn't? I mean just in the last few years its reputation has grown exponentially. As long as players like Dempsey, Kaka, David Villa, Pirlo, Lampard, Gerrard, etc. keep coming over. It will only continue to rise. Now, obviously those players are in the twilight of their careers, but at least they are now considering MLS. Where as maybe 5 years ago, they wouldn't have. IF they formatted the league to those in Europe, it would help too. Like throw out the playoff format. Get rid of the current salary cap. The draft. Etc.


I think the draft will be gone at some point, I don't think they will ever rid the league of the playoffs or salary cap though.

The cap clearly needs to be increased, and that will come in time. The playoffs though are so ingrained with North American sports fans that it just makes sense to keep it.

The regular season league winner still receives a trophy, so the playoffs are just as added bonus.

Not a fan of the playoffs. Not needed. Other leagues have done just fine without one. I feel the same way about baseball. You play 162 games and you decide a champion on a best of 5 or 7 game series? Why?


I get that with baseball for sure, but with MLS soccer to me the playoffs are no different then Champions League. Same style format, just with less teams, and less prestige.

It just adds drama, just like the final few rounds of Champions League or Europa.
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Re: Football League Comparison Thread 

Post#75 » by Cactus Jack » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:36 pm

LittleOzzy wrote:
Cactus Jack wrote:
LittleOzzy wrote:
I think the draft will be gone at some point, I don't think they will ever rid the league of the playoffs or salary cap though.

The cap clearly needs to be increased, and that will come in time. The playoffs though are so ingrained with North American sports fans that it just makes sense to keep it.

The regular season league winner still receives a trophy, so the playoffs are just as added bonus.

Not a fan of the playoffs. Not needed. Other leagues have done just fine without one. I feel the same way about baseball. You play 162 games and you decide a champion on a best of 5 or 7 game series? Why?


I get that with baseball for sure, but with MLS soccer to me the playoffs are no different then Champions League. Same style format, just with less teams, and less prestige.

It just adds drama, just like the final few rounds of Champions League or Europa.

Ok, but it just seems redundant to me. You already play a 30 plus game schedule. Play every opponent. Makes a regular season game seem less important. The NBA, NHL and MLB already have this problem. The casual fan will only watch come playoff time.
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Re: Football League Comparison Thread 

Post#76 » by Cactus Jack » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:53 pm

Another problem from my pov, is over-expansion. I read somewhere that the league wants to have 28 teams soon :o. Seems to me that will only dilute the quality of play. Will there be enough good players to spread out over so many teams?
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Re: Football League Comparison Thread 

Post#77 » by LittleOzzy » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:31 pm

Cactus Jack wrote:
LittleOzzy wrote:
Cactus Jack wrote:Not a fan of the playoffs. Not needed. Other leagues have done just fine without one. I feel the same way about baseball. You play 162 games and you decide a champion on a best of 5 or 7 game series? Why?


I get that with baseball for sure, but with MLS soccer to me the playoffs are no different then Champions League. Same style format, just with less teams, and less prestige.

It just adds drama, just like the final few rounds of Champions League or Europa.

Ok, but it just seems redundant to me. You already play a 30 plus game schedule. Play every opponent. Makes a regular season game seem less important. The NBA, NHL and MLB already have this problem. The casual fan will only watch come playoff time.


Maybe you are right, casual fans normally wait for the playoffs, but how do you explain to those fans that they now need to start watching earlier? It's almost impossible at this point to have a league in North America without some kind of playoff.
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Re: Football League Comparison Thread 

Post#78 » by LittleOzzy » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:37 pm

Cactus Jack wrote:Another problem from my pov, is over-expansion. I read somewhere that the league wants to have 28 teams soon :o. Seems to me that will only dilute the quality of play. Will there be enough good players to spread out over so many teams?


I agree 100%, they are over expanding for the increased revenue that comes from expansion fees.

28 teams will dilute the product unless they rapidly increase the salary cap. North America has proven they can handle big leagues, but only if the talent is there.

Maybe they hope to split the league like MLB baseball, where both leagues will combine for the playoffs? That I could see working. Two 20 team leagues that only meet in the playoffs.

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