Best managers in the world?

[El Turco]

ferguson? no way he gets 2 cl titles in four seasons. he got that many in 25 years despite being at the helm of most popular club of his era.

[Ted Lasso]

Lol. With prime Pique, Alves, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi and Eto'o/Villa/Zlatan: how about Simoene, Ancelotti, Mourinho, Klopp, Ferguson in his time, and probably Louis van Gaal and Del Bosque as well, for starters? I'm not saying all these guys are better than Pep, but they would probably all achieve similar success with that loaded Barca squad.

Ancelotti has 3 league titles in 14 seasons, having managed Juventus, Milan, Chelsea, PSG, and Real Madrid in that time. Simeone's football is the antithesis of Barcelona's and there is no telling what he would done there. Ferguson is retired and not even remotely capable of such continental dominance. Klopp is fighting relegation right now and his reputation is shielded by how little attention the Bundesliga receives. van Gaal has underachieved just as often as he has delivered.

The only two managers who sport records of any similarity to Guardiola's are Mourinho and Del Bosque. But if we're just throwing names out there with no evidence whatsoever to back them up, then you're golden.

Also, isn't it a tad curious that Pique, Alves, Xavi, Iniesta, and Messi, all enjoyed their primes under Guardiola even though all of them with the possible exception of Xavi were completely capable physically of maintaining such form after his departure?

Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Henry, Yaya and more were all there a season before Guardiola arrived too. And they lost the title to an underwhelming Real Madrid team.

That was among the most talented teams of all time. They really had no competition in La Liga until Mourinho came to Madrid in 2010.

Pellegrini broke Real Madrid's points record. If they had no competition, that's because Guardiola had them performing at a level they hadn't before and haven't since.

[5DOM]

Also, isn't it a tad curious that Pique, Alves, Xavi, Iniesta, and Messi, all enjoyed their primes under Guardiola even though all of them with the possible exception of Xavi were completely capable physically of maintaining such form after his departure?

Pique and Messi started playing with injuries, and Xavi, Alves and Puyol just got old. Physically they were/are no longer in their prime. Pep must have overworked them This is what Mr. Rodgers was fearing with Sterling. Rodgers 1, Pep 0.

I doubt Barca would have maintained their most incredible 3-4 seasons stretch even if Pep stayed there, because 1) it's hard to stay at such level for any team/player/manager, and 2) they were no longer mentally there, but I bet he would have at least bought a CB.

[DD12]

Pique and Messi started playing with injuries, and Xavi, Alves and Puyol just got old. Physically they were/are no longer in their prime. Pep must have overworked them This is what Mr. Rodgers was fearing with Sterling. Rodgers 1, Pep 0.

I doubt Barca would have maintained their most incredible 3-4 seasons stretch even if Pep stayed there, because 1) it's hard to stay at such level for any team/player/manager, and 2) they were no longer mentally there, but I bet he would have at least bought a CB.

Well said.

[Maex]

You know you should reconsider your reasoning, if Massimo is complementing your argument

[5DOM]

So I guess you think all those Barca players are still physically in their prime?
Even if you concede that only Xavi and Puyol have declined, that's a HUGE blow.

I'm sure that Guardiola's departure played a big role in Barca's decline but there are more factors involved. Guardiola himself said that he could no longer motivate the players.

[DD12]

You know you should reconsider your reasoning, if Massimo is complementing your argument

[Maex]

Spoiler:

You know you should reconsider your reasoning, if Massimo is complementing your argument

[cgf]

no way pep can be below #2 IMO. swear this the only message board where pep and messi aren't rated

There's more than two coaches who are better at coaching in the BuLi alone. None who have been even close to as successful with a giant club, but guys who are doing a better coaching job today none the less.

I can totally see where are you coming from, but still I have some problems with the argument (and the whole thread in general).

I do think that not every coach job is the same, and that different managers a gifted in different departments. Let's take us e.g. Streich , who we both think of as an excellent coach. He is doing a fabulous job in Freiburg and he is truly making the best out of a limited budget. Would he also excel at a club with other standards and a higher betters? We do not know, because his main skillset atm would not be as helpful as it is in Freiburg.

There are countless examples of managers who failed doing exactly this task: Thorsten Fink (Ingolstadt, Basel, Hamburg), Michael Oenning (Nürnberg, Hamburg), Christian Gross (Basel, Stuttgart), Armin Veh (Augsburg, Stuttgart, Wolfsburg), Michael Skibbe (Germany U20, Leverkusen), Bruno Labbadia (Fürth, Leverkusen). Outside of the Bundesliga Moyes would be a good example.

Of course you have opposite examples like Klopp, who transited very well from mainz to Dortmund. But that is the majority.

Pep might be the opposite. He proofed that he is able to transform a very great team to a world champion team on a consistant basis.

Now if you ask me who is the better manager, I could not reply unless I know the situation he will find himself in. Is it go play against relegation? Give me Streich anytime. Is it to play for the Champions League title? Give me Pep without a question! Would I trust Streich with a squad like Bayern, Chelsea, Barca, Real? Not really.

A salient point, especially when we look at the caliber of coaches who have failed at Schalke and Bayern. But when I say these guys are better coaches it's not about the results vs resources that make me say this but their tactical nuance, how disciplined their teams consistently are, and how they manage to balance that pressing and counterpressing discipline with nurturing the creative prowess they have.

Like with different clubs they need different styles and talents, so to does a coach of a title contender need different talents than someone saving a club from relegation, this is why I tend to talk about guys being better for specific appointments, or the more fundamental aspects of coaching (strategy, tactics, training, teaching, vision, man management, leadership, etc.) and these we can compare to some degree across the different job types. Like Klopp, he has a very strong strategy that underlies everything he does, is good at inspiring confidence in young players, and drilling his pressing schemes into everyone in his lockerroom. But he is tactically very naive, strategically rather inflexible, and he has continually shown to be unable to drill possession football into his squads so that all they can really do against a bunker is press more aggressively to create chances through turnovers, or too to break into smaller and smaller spaces. These skills and lacking skills exist regardless of what club he's with.

Now the club a coach is with can limit our answers to some of these questions, like maybe Streich can't handle star players and we just don't know cause he doesn't work with many stars, but this is an unreasonable criticism for for those same reasons. It's why I don't like holding the talent a coach is given to work with against them unless that talent reflects short comings in one of the coaching traits I'm looking at.

And just comparing how they stack up in each of the coaching categories we can gain insight on these guys in, I rate Favre, Tuchel, and Streich, over Pep and Kloppo. They may prove incapable of handling the personalities of greater players and greater media pressure, but until they do I can't hold that against them. Just like I can not handicap pep for never having pulled a club from out of the relegation zone despite inferior talent. If the scenario happens and they fail that becomes something to consider and part of the puzzle one must balance against the weak points of the other coaches, but until then we can only judge based on the evidence we do have.

[No_20]

Top 15 imo:

1. Pep Guardiola
2. José Mourinho
3. Carlo Ancelotti
4. Joachim Löw
5. Diego Simeone
6. Massimiliano Allegri
7. Luis Enrique
8. Arsene Wenger
9. Antonio Conte
10. Thomas Tuchel
11. Unai Emery
12. Jürgen Klopp
13. Laurent Blanc
14. Jorge Sampaoli
15. Slaven Bilic

[SlobbaN]

Allegri in a landslide. None other coach takes that Juve roster past the group stage. The best managers are the ones who year in and out overachieve. Winning with Barca or Bayern is underachieving.

[Baphomet]

Top 15 imo:

1. Pep Guardiola
2. José Mourinho
3. Carlo Ancelotti
4. Joachim Löw
5. Diego Simeone
6. Massimiliano Allegri
7. Luis Enrique
8. Arsene Wenger
9. Antonio Conte
10. Thomas Tuchel
11. Unai Emery
12. Jürgen Klopp
13. Laurent Blanc
14. Jorge Sampaoli
15. Slaven Bilic

Bilic is just in there for banter right?

[DD12]

Top 15 imo:

1. Pep Guardiola
2. José Mourinho
3. Carlo Ancelotti
4. Joachim Löw
5. Diego Simeone
6. Massimiliano Allegri
7. Luis Enrique
8. Arsene Wenger
9. Antonio Conte
10. Thomas Tuchel
11. Unai Emery
12. Jürgen Klopp
13. Laurent Blanc
14. Jorge Sampaoli
15. Slaven Bilic

Bilic is just in there for banter right?

I dont think so. He is there because he is really good.

[Baphomet]

I agree that he's a good coach, but top 15 in the world is a stretch, imo. I would take Jorge Jesus and Marcelino over him for sure. Pochettino and Ranieri deserve their plaudits for this season, too, and could be argued for.

[No_20]

I agree that he's a good coach, but top 15 in the world is a stretch, imo. I would take Jorge Jesus and Marcelino over him for sure. Pochettino and Ranieri deserve their plaudits for this season, too, and could be argued for.

Ridiculous.

Jorge Jesus needs to prove himself in a tougher league and Ranieri was more useless in Greece than a Euro. Dont know much about Marcelino(which tells you he isnt good) and Pochettino can only be in the discussion if he can get Champions League football to Tottenham.

[MaliBrah]

Allegri in a landslide. None other coach takes that Juve roster past the group stage. The best managers are the ones who year in and out overachieve. Winning with Barca or Bayern is underachieving.

no other coach can take that juve team past the group stage? Am I seriously reading this?

[DD12]

Allegri in a landslide. None other coach takes that Juve roster past the group stage. The best managers are the ones who year in and out overachieve. Winning with Barca or Bayern is underachieving.

no other coach can take that juve team past the group stage? Am I seriously reading this?

He also said Pogba is not good lol

[Baphomet]

I agree that he's a good coach, but top 15 in the world is a stretch, imo. I would take Jorge Jesus and Marcelino over him for sure. Pochettino and Ranieri deserve their plaudits for this season, too, and could be argued for.

Ridiculous.

Jorge Jesus needs to prove himself in a tougher league and Ranieri was more useless in Greece than a Euro. Dont know much about Marcelino(which tells you he isnt good) and Pochettino can only be in the discussion if he can get Champions League football to Tottenham.

Ridiculous how?

Marcelino took over a relegated Villarreal that was languishing in the Segunda division, been gutted of its star players and had its previous previous manager die on his first day in the job, got them promoted again, achieved back-to-back 6th places in La Liga, and they're now sitting at 4th and are possibly in the frame for CL football. He deserves it over Bilic 10 times over. I'll make exceptions for your ignorance, though.

Jorge Jesus' teams have routinely dominated the Primeira Liga. And why does he need to prove himself in a tougher league when his teams have done so well in Europe in recent years?

What exactly has Bilic proven in a few months in a tough league to deserve candidacy over them? If he had West Ham top of the league in January, like Leicester under Ranieri, I'd understand it. Nobody felt aggrieved when Bilic wasn't included in this list a year ago, so again, what has he done since then to suddenly deserve consideration for the top 15 best managers?

[No_20]

I agree that he's a good coach, but top 15 in the world is a stretch, imo. I would take Jorge Jesus and Marcelino over him for sure. Pochettino and Ranieri deserve their plaudits for this season, too, and could be argued for.

Ridiculous.

Jorge Jesus needs to prove himself in a tougher league and Ranieri was more useless in Greece than a Euro. Dont know much about Marcelino(which tells you he isnt good) and Pochettino can only be in the discussion if he can get Champions League football to Tottenham.

Ridiculous how?

Marcelino took over a relegated Villarreal that was languishing in the Segunda division, been gutted of its star players and had its previous manager die on his first day in the job, got them promoted again, achieved back-to-back 6th places in La Liga, and they're now sitting at 4th and are possibly in the frame for CL football. He deserves it over Bilic 10 times over. I'll make exceptions for your ignorance, though.

Jorge Jesus' teams have routinely dominated the Primeira Liga. And why does he need to prove himself in a tougher league when his teams have done so well in Europe in recent years?

What exactly has Bilic proven in a few months in a tough league to deserve candidacy over them? If he had West Ham top of the league in January, like Leicester under Ranieri, I'd understand it. Nobody felt aggrieved when Bilic wasn't included in this list a year ago, so again, what has he done since then to suddenly deserve consideration for the top 15 best managers?

Did great at Croatia(beat your country at Wembley, remember?), Besiktas and has transformed West Ham. They've played 6 matches against Arsenal, ManUtd, ManCity, Chelsea and Liverpool and they are unbeaten. That tells you something about his qualities as a coach.

Even AVB is better than Jorge Jesus. He dominated the Portugese league as well and didnt bottle a EL final unlike Jorge Jesus. And he made Bale a world class player.

[Baphomet]

So stuff that happened in 07/08 is criteria for a top 15 manager in 2016? You know what, let's get Avram Grant on the list, he made a CL final in 08 and lost narrowly to a Ferguson led United team. I can't help but notice that you conveniently left out the fact that Spurs thrashed West Ham 4-1 a month or two ago. You also left out the fact that he led the best Croatian squad of all time to a quarter final defeat against Turkey in the same tournament they heroically upended a dreadfully inept England team in qualifying.

Again, I will insist, I think that Slaven Bilic is a good manager. Top 15 in the world isn't a place for merely 'good' managers, otherwise you'd see the likes of Pardew and Pulis up there.

AVB is not better than Jorge Jesus. He has won the league once to Jorge Jesus' 3 titles, who is currently on track for a fourth with a Sporting team that hasn't won the league in over a decade. AVB also had Falcao, Hulk, James, Moutinho and Otamendi on that team. You or I probably would've won the league managing that team, Jesus' Benfica and Sporting squads haven't been even close to that level.