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Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continues

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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#1781 » by LukasBMW » Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:18 am

SunsFanSSOL wrote:
aIvin adams wrote:G Dragic / Thomas ... / Archie
Bledsoe / ... / Z Dragic
Tucker / Green ... / Warren
Mk Morris .. / Mc Morris
Plumlee / Len


sick. i'm not sure if we'll be seeing the Morrises around after this season. if they play as well or better than they did last year, then maybe the suns pay to keep them, i dunno.

Len is the low hanging fruit for team improvement this season. Cmon big guy..


If Len comes out and stinks it up (as expected), I'd look to target a defensive big using Len, Green and Ennis as assets. Thinking a guy like Sanders, Hibbert, Ibaka etc. I'd throw big money at DeAndre Jordan next off-season too if he's not extended by LA.


Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan are great friends. They both love California. Now that they have new management, I doubt either leave.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#1782 » by LukasBMW » Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:34 am

I 100% agree that all we need a post presence to compete IF Bledsoe stays healthy, Green plays like he did last year, and Markieff improves just a bit.

Cousins is a dream, but 20/10 centers with post moves are so rare. Hell, even Barkley clowns on Dwight for not being able to post up. Sacramento will do everything to keep him UNLESS he demands a trade or he does something really stupid (like Ron Artest stupid).

I'd love to get Cousins here and find a way to pair him with Markieff. Let's pray that Ben McLemore and Rudy Gay hog spend the year jacking up shots while Sacramento falls to the bottom of the standings. And maybe Bledsoe can help recruit Boogie to demand a trade. After all, the klutz spots guys seem to love pulling antics. Maybe they can now pull one in our favor?

I think a more likely scenario is McDonough finds a good deal on another solid center OR pulls the trigger on an underutilized center with untapped potential.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#1783 » by SunsFanSSOL » Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:54 am

LukasBMW wrote:
SunsFanSSOL wrote:
aIvin adams wrote:G Dragic / Thomas ... / Archie
Bledsoe / ... / Z Dragic
Tucker / Green ... / Warren
Mk Morris .. / Mc Morris
Plumlee / Len


sick. i'm not sure if we'll be seeing the Morrises around after this season. if they play as well or better than they did last year, then maybe the suns pay to keep them, i dunno.

Len is the low hanging fruit for team improvement this season. Cmon big guy..


If Len comes out and stinks it up (as expected), I'd look to target a defensive big using Len, Green and Ennis as assets. Thinking a guy like Sanders, Hibbert, Ibaka etc. I'd throw big money at DeAndre Jordan next off-season too if he's not extended by LA.


Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan are great friends. They both love California. Now that they have new management, I doubt either leave.


Jordan is also friends with Bledsoe and the Clippers already have a lot of salary committed to Blake and CP3 that maybe they would hesitate to offer Jordan a lot of money.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#1784 » by dgwdum » Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:07 pm

SunsFanSSOL wrote:
LukasBMW wrote:
SunsFanSSOL wrote:
If Len comes out and stinks it up (as expected), I'd look to target a defensive big using Len, Green and Ennis as assets. Thinking a guy like Sanders, Hibbert, Ibaka etc. I'd throw big money at DeAndre Jordan next off-season too if he's not extended by LA.


Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan are great friends. They both love California. Now that they have new management, I doubt either leave.


Jordan is also friends with Bledsoe and the Clippers already have a lot of salary committed to Blake and CP3 that maybe they would hesitate to offer Jordan a lot of money.

They have balmer as an owner now, so money is not a problem and the salary cap is going up soon as well. so to get jordan away from the clippers a team would need to offer him superstar money and I don't think he is worth it. Even then the clippers might match since centers are scarce.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#1785 » by JDLAW » Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:23 pm

Split T wrote:I think our best shot at a star player might be horford. If markieff takes another step and the lakers pick looks like 6-9 range, and Atlanta really struggles, a Morris brothers, Len, lakers pick for horford might make sense. Although millsap is essentially the Morris brothers morphed into one. But we could get a third team involved


If Markieff takes another step, there is no need for Horford. Kieff will be close enough to him that a trade of both Morris brother, Len and the Lakers' pick whole be a ginormous overpay for a player that has trouble staying on the court. Even of Markeiff does not take another step, this is a huge overpay.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#1786 » by LukasBMW » Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:32 pm

What about Hibbert?

PG is done for a year and Lance left. If Indiana decides to rebuild, we've got some quality rebuilding pieces to offer.

I want a massive starting center for rim protection, rebounding and a post up game.

We can still have 4 other guys on the court to run.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#1787 » by Suns Court 23 » Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:35 pm

LukasBMW wrote:What about Hibbert?

PG is done for a year and Lance left. If Indiana decides to rebuild, we've got some quality rebuilding pieces to offer.

I want a massive starting center for rim protection, rebounding and a post up game.

We can still have 4 other guys on the court to run.

I would rather have Larry Sanders if we want rim protection because he is also a great rebounder and is very athletic so he could get lobs and run the floor with the guards. Plus he's younger but of course he has his off court issues. Not sure what it would take to get him.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#1788 » by aIvin adams » Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:44 pm

LukasBMW wrote:What about Hibbert?

PG is done for a year and Lance left. If Indiana decides to rebuild, we've got some quality rebuilding pieces to offer.

I want a massive starting center for rim protection, rebounding and a post up game.

We can still have 4 other guys on the court to run.


would love to get Hibbert here and get him a fresh start. that guy has no comparison in terms of rim protection; he's a tier above the other bigs who do what he does.

his rebounding numbers might be underwhelming, but i wouldn't be surprised if he had a positive impact on team rebounding a la Robin Lopez.

the only player int he league who attacks Hibbert fearlessly is Dragic. so if Hibbert played here, he'd be impenetrable :D
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#1789 » by carey » Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:46 pm

LukasBMW wrote:What about Hibbert?


I'm not usually the kind of guy that makes a decision on a player based on a couple of games. There's plenty of evidence including advance stats that says Hibbert is a defensive force. However... the Suns treated the Pacers and Hibbert specifically like a lay-up line last year. It just turned me off of him completely.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#1790 » by aIvin adams » Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:51 pm

carey wrote:
LukasBMW wrote:What about Hibbert?


I'm not usually the kind of guy that makes a decision on a player based on a couple of games. There's plenty of evidence including advance stats that says Hibbert is a defensive force. However... the Suns treated the Pacers and Hibbert specifically like a lay-up line last year. It just turned me off of him completely.



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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#1791 » by Split T » Sat Sep 27, 2014 5:05 pm

asudevil wrote:
Split T wrote:I think our best shot at a star player might be horford. If markieff takes another step and the lakers pick looks like 6-9 range, and Atlanta really struggles, a Morris brothers, Len, lakers pick for horford might make sense. Although millsap is essentially the Morris brothers morphed into one. But we could get a third team involved


If Markieff takes another step wouldnt that put him that much closer to Horford. Just look at there per36 (which i know a lot of you hate, but the sample size is large enough)

18.6pts/8.4rbs/2.6asts with 0.9stls/1.5blks - Horford
18.6pts/8.1rbs/2.4asts with 1.1stls/0.9blks - Morris

the numbers are not that far off. Yeah, the arguement is there that we are comparing 1st vs 2nd string, but if you talking talent vs talent then over the course of 2000 minutes the numbers arent THAT skewed.

I think a lot of your are undervaluing what Markieff has accomplished. He's on the verge of a breakout year.

IMO you keep Markieff. He's one of two things. a.) a STUD force off the bench with Marcus/Thomas that elevate our 2nd string to unstoppable or b.) he makes the leap to star quality PF. He really isnt that far behind Horford, and when you factor in age/experience Markieff as all the ability to elevate his game. Afterall we are talking about 4 years experience that Horford has over Markieff.


First off, I'm not sure where you got those numbers, but they aren't horford's according to basketball reference. He was a 20/9/3 player per 36 last year and a 15/10/3 guy for his career. However, your point is still valid. If markieff jumps to say a 17/7 guy in 30 minutes as a starter with the same efficiency he did as a reserve last year, the trade doesn't make much sense, especially since horford can't seem to stay healthy.

But IMO, markieff at his absolute best will still be slightly inferior to a healthy horford. Horford is bigger, more balanced and been more consistent. He's everything we'd want as a big man. He can score in the post, hit the mid range jumper consistently, is a great passer, rebounds well and plays defense. He'd give us 17/10 every night with good defense and he can play the 4/5.

I like markieff, but I'm not sure his ideal situation is first big off the bench for a contender. As for the other pieces, we don't really need more picks right now and I really have zero expectations for Len and I don't think he holds much value around the league. He's got size, but he needs to show he can play. If we offered the trade today, Atlanta would say no and it would take at least this to get him. I just think he is a much more realistic target than Demarcus cousins.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#1792 » by NavLDO » Sat Sep 27, 2014 6:18 pm

asudevil wrote:
Split T wrote:I think our best shot at a star player might be horford. If markieff takes another step and the lakers pick looks like 6-9 range, and Atlanta really struggles, a Morris brothers, Len, lakers pick for horford might make sense. Although millsap is essentially the Morris brothers morphed into one. But we could get a third team involved


If Markieff takes another step wouldnt that put him that much closer to Horford. Just look at there per36 (which i know a lot of you hate, but the sample size is large enough)

18.6pts/8.4rbs/2.6asts with 0.9stls/1.5blks - Horford
18.6pts/8.1rbs/2.4asts with 1.1stls/0.9blks - Morris

the numbers are not that far off. Yeah, the arguement is there that we are comparing 1st vs 2nd string, but if you talking talent vs talent then over the course of 2000 minutes the numbers arent THAT skewed.

I think a lot of your are undervaluing what Markieff has accomplished. He's on the verge of a breakout year.

IMO you keep Markieff. He's one of two things. a.) a STUD force off the bench with Marcus/Thomas that elevate our 2nd string to unstoppable or b.) he makes the leap to star quality PF. He really isnt that far behind Horford, and when you factor in age/experience Markieff as all the ability to elevate his game. Afterall we are talking about 4 years experience that Horford has over Markieff.


Yeah, I don't get all the discussion about needing a starting stud at PF when we have Kieff. I've also read things from fans that he's small, which really doesn't make much sense either. I don't get how 6'9" 240ish is small for a PF...he's actually right about average. There are a lot of 6'7"/6'8" guys out there.

Also, he's just now entering his 4th year. As many have noted, bigs take a little longer to develop than backcourt guys, so the fact that he was a 'stud' coming off as a 6th man, and the fact that he was in the running for the '6th Man of the Year Award', I guess I don't understand the seemingly overwhelming concern that he isn't developing into a good, starting PF.

While it would be nice to have top 10 NBA players at every position, the fact of the matter is that that notion is a pipe dream. We do have, IMO, two top 20 backcourt talents in EB and Dragic, with IT waiting in the wings. We just drafted, what looks to be, a very high potential guy as our SF for years to come. Same with Len--and no, I'm not concerned about his ability in the slightest...again, bigs take time to develop.

I'm drinking the Kool Aid, for sure, but just imagine our potential starting line-up in 2016:

Dragic
EB
Warren
Kieff
Len

I do understand if you want to win this year, and if we could some how make a trade for a stud 5 or 3, then great, yeah, I'm on board, but to trade for another 4, just to keep Kieff in the same 6th man role, is unnecessary and unfair, IMO. Kieff has earned the right to start. Give him a chance. If he can't hack it by the trade deadline, and we can swing something, then fine, but at least give Kieff the chance to fail, first.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#1793 » by Sunsdeuce » Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:32 pm

Per 36 paints about 1/3 the actual picture.

Tim Duncan only averaged 15 pts and about 9.5 rebounds a game. At first glance, those numbers look very comparable to markieff. But it does not even begin to tell a story of how much better, effective, and important Duncan is than markeiff. Duncan even at his age effects the game in countless ways markeiff will never begin to be able to do. Duncan still requires double teams and he makes the game so much easier for Parker and Manu thus making them so much more effective.

Comparing Horford to markieff is comparing apples and oranges. They have totally different effect on the game.

What people are saying when they say they want a stud PF is they want someone who can control the pace, flow, and alter the game with their ability down low. Markieff does affect the game, he is more of a compliment to the game than actual game changer.

Bottomline is markieff is a very good complimentary piece at PF for the suns but he isn't a game changer.

In the last 7/8 years, I have really gotten into football big time. Football has made me understand that stats don't tell everything(in fact they are only a little piece to understanding what makes players important or not). You have to break down game tape. Quick example. Dan Williams of the az cards, puts up tiny numbers but his ability to clog lanes is a huge reason the cards are elite at stopping the run. Yes, football is not basketball but it teaches you to look beyond the numbers.

Look beyond the numbers and you will understand how much more of effect on the game Horford had than markieff.


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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#1794 » by MathiasPW » Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:51 pm

Sunsdeuce wrote:Per 36 paints about 1/3 the actual picture.

Tim Duncan only averaged 15 pts and about 9.5 rebounds a game. At first glance, those numbers look very comparable to markieff. But it does not even begin to tell a story of how much better, effective, and important Duncan is than markeiff. Duncan even at his age effects the game in countless ways markeiff will never begin to be able to do. Duncan still requires double teams and he makes the game so much easier for Parker and Manu thus making them so much more effective.

Comparing Horford to markieff is comparing apples and oranges. They have totally different effect on the game.

What people are saying when they say they want a stud PF is they want someone who can control the pace, flow, and alter the game with their ability down low. Markieff does affect the game, he is more of a compliment to the game than actual game changer.

Bottomline is markieff is a very good complimentary piece at PF for the suns but he isn't a game changer.

In the last 7/8 years, I have really gotten into football big time. Football has made me understand that stats don't tell everything(in fact they are only a little piece to understanding what makes players important or not). You have to break down game tape. Quick example. Dan Williams of the az cards, puts up tiny numbers but his ability to clog lanes is a huge reason the cards are elite at stopping the run. Yes, football is not basketball but it teaches you to look beyond the numbers.

Look beyond the numbers and you will understand how much more of effect on the game Horford had than markieff.


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Good post. I agree fully. Same can be said about PJ Tucker :D
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#1795 » by Superbone » Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:59 pm

Isn't it time for a new thread since the not-so-Mexican-stand-off is over?
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#1796 » by ShawnBronald » Sat Sep 27, 2014 8:05 pm

Superbone wrote:Isn't it time for a new thread since the not-so-Mexican-stand-off is over?


I've been thinking the same thing. In fact, the Offseason is just about over, so I guess it's about time for a Preseason thread! :D
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#1797 » by Flying Colors » Sat Sep 27, 2014 8:24 pm

ShawnBronald wrote:
Superbone wrote:Isn't it time for a new thread since the not-so-Mexican-stand-off is over?


I've been thinking the same thing. In fact, the Offseason is just about over, so I guess it's about time for a Preseason thread! :D

Yup, all moves have been made and we discussed it to death with nearly 600 pages :o and pre season starts in a few days, its time for the next thread.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#1798 » by Suns Court 23 » Sat Sep 27, 2014 8:37 pm

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nb ... /16305837/

We are 11 in watchability rankings but I think we are higher and many non-suns fans would probably agree. Anyway, I also think we will be better than 42-40 this year. I think we can win 50 games if Markief takes the next step and Alex becomes a good back-up.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#1799 » by BurningHeart » Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:12 pm

Al Horford is really, really, really overrated. My goodness. Really damn good player, no doubt, but you'd think the guy is Tim Duncan the way people carry on about him.

Markieff Morris, Marcus Morris, Alex Len, AND the Lakers pick? AND that's only if Markieff takes "another step"?!

Hooooooooooooly mackerel, dude.

Markieff Morris is fine. More than fine. We need depth behind the bigs and for Alex Len to continue improving. That's all.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#1800 » by NaturalBuns » Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:17 pm

SF88 wrote:There's an idiot named "Shem" on the GB in the Bledsoe thread and he has to be one of the dumbest motha*** on the planet. And I don't mean dumb by just basketball standards, but everything.

Kerrsed schooled him at math and he threatened to report him to the admin because apparently, you can't point out the idiocy in someone if you are a mod.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1346523&start=220

Even a fellow Blazers fan went and put him on blast.


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A's over Royals. Lester and experience will prove that he's worth the trade.

Tigers winning it all. Tigers are, imo, peaking at the right time.

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