Is Hornacek the problem?

[Puff]

I don't like the roster any better than anyone else but at some point it comes down to coaching. Ok I said it.

I just hate watching this team play. It is ugly basketball and I believe that starts at the coaches level. It seems that we keep making the same mistakes over and over while blaming the refs for our lack of effort, direction and skill. If the players on the court are not doing what the coach wants them to do, why do they continue to get minutes. If Popovich were our coach our bench would have finished virtually every game.

It seems that all we do is shoot jumpers and our biggest goal is to get an open 3 pointer. Other than IT, Goran and Bledsoe no one goes to the hoop. Unfortunately our guards have no one to pass it to other than a 3 point shooter. We have no finishers other than them. I expect most of our assists are coming from made 3 pointers. We were near last in the league last year in assists and I expect we are challenging again for that honor this year. Why in the world are we designing plays for Markieff to shoot 3 pointers? When is the last time Marcus has not shot a jumper while taking his man to the rim? Why does the coach even allow Plumlee shoot anything but dunks. A couple of times we actually ran ISO's for Miles freaking Plumlee. What is that about?

It seems team ball, the Hornacek, way is making passes on the perimeter for a better 3 pointer.

We undoubtedly could use better/different players but I just do not like the style of basketball this group is playing. The only way we win is if Green makes virtually every shot he looks at. Green should be taking the ball to the hoop more often as well. No one can guard him and he is a great free throw shooter.

What a freaking mess.

[Nando88]

Bravo! Thank you. This team is a damn mess. Jeff kinda called out his team yesterday by saying this team WANTS To continue going though the motions. But next game I still expect no changes with lineups or gameplan.


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[letsgosuns]

I have disagreed with some of Hornacek's coaching decisions but I do not think he is the problem per se. There is only so much he can do and then it is up to the players. My two biggest criticisms of him are the starting lineup and not playing the young guys. However, the Suns are in a quandary because they are teetering the line of trying to be competitive versus developing young talent. They have Bledsoe and Dragic who are second or third tier star players. Both really good but not truly at that all-star level. Then the rest of the rotation is role players. Markieff is the only one with more potential than that but what I think holds him back is his lack of speed and athleticism. He is a skilled player, yet it feels like he is missing that take it to the next level quality which allows a special player to truly dominate.

This is my assertation of the team: Dragic is never going to get any better than he played last year. Bledsoe has great potential but I am not sure if he has the ability to play at a high level every night like Chris Paul or Steph Curry. Green is a fantastic shooting guard off the bench that would be a great role playing starter next to a superstar. The Morris brothers are nothing more than serviceable role/bench players, although Markieff is clearly better than Marcus. Plumlee is someone I was so high on last year and he has let me down dramatically this year and I think he is a bench player as well. Tucker is an overachiever that also would benefit the most playing next to a superstar. Thomas is good but I do not know any team off the top of my head that won a championship with a 5'9" player being a major part of the team.

Then for the young guys, I like all of them and I want them to play. The problem like I said before is the Suns are trying so hard to compete for a playoff spot even though the team's current rotation of players does not compare talent wise to the best teams. So what do they do? Should they trade away guys and go all out with young players. Should they continue with what they have. Should they trade Dragic, Bledsoe, or Thomas and maybe draft picks for frontcourt help. I am not sure which is the best road to take. I do believe if they do nothing, they are probably looking at another ninth place finish in the West and most likely the 14th pick of the draft, unless they inherit the Lakers pick which could be as good as the 6th pick. Regardless, the Suns are not in a bad position, just a tough position. Last year was a fun ride but it ultimately ended up in no playoffs once again. I hope the same type of scenario is not duplicated this year.

[LukasBMW]

It's not Hornacek, it's the teams effort.

1. Our effort sucks and it's not consistent.
The only reason why we were successful last year is because we out hustled so many other teams. This year we aren't the team hustling.

2. We aren't playing team ball.
Moving the ball wasn't our strength last year either, but it's even more of a problem now. We need to swing the ball like the Nash led Suns teams of the past.

3. Our defense sucks
When we play a team that is giving it their all on defense, it's either a team playing a very aggressive zone or a team playing very tight man to man defense. Every one of their players is up in the jock of our players and is denying the pass. Our guards have to work just to get the ball past mid-court because there are no clear open players. Our team almost never pays defense this tight. No one is denying the pass. No one is in the jockstrap of the opposing player. Some of this is just effort.

I'd say we can start by moving PJ back into the starting lineup, but given his troubled summer and recent suspension, I just hope he has his head on straight and isn't drinking again. We need him to lead by example. He can't do that if he's out getting wasted and missing the team bus.

[Scutt]

It starts at the top with Robert Sarver and Ryan McDonough. Although I wont lie, its pretty comical how Hornacek kept spouting in preseason that positions would be based on performance solely and there was no guarantees. Yet, here we are almost 20 games in, and Alex Len has continually outplayed Plumlee, and Jeff stubbornly refuses to start Len, or even give him more playing time or offensive touches.

Clearly Sarver cannot handle putting the Suns through a proper rebuild, he would rather bring in other teams trash, hoping for treasures that can be used to fight for the 8th seed, than develop the young talent and draft picks we already have. I remember being so excited when the Suns brought in Ryan McDonough, I though Sarver had finally realized the Suns needed to build through the draft and things were finally looking up, but I guess I was wrong.

Wojnarowski on Ryan McDonough, “The mold that I think Ryan will use there is what they did in Oklahoma City, what they are trying to do in Orlando which is build through the draft and tear the thing down and then build it back up with young players and stop chasing the eighth seed, stop chasing the seventh seed and build a real foundation. That’s what the Suns desperately need.”

What happens after ONE YEAR of overachieving to 48 wins and the 9th seed? They proceed to go out and bring in Isiah Thomas, resign PJ Tucker and the Morris Bros, and give Eric Bledsoe 70 million dollars. Does anyone here really believe this so called "core" of Bledsoe, Dragic and the Morris Brothers are going to develop into a contender? Apparently the Suns cant afford to develop young players like Len, Goodwin, Warren, and Ennis, because they are too busy playing a bunch of role playing veterans, who have already hit their ceilings. Who cares if all those role players can muster is 40 something wins and the 9th seed. It sure beats getting a good draft pick and getting a potential star.

All I want is to see Goodwin, Warren, and Ennis in the 2nd unit, getting rotation minutes, and Alex Len in the starting line up. This Suns team is nowhere good enough to where lottery picks should never get to see the court. Bottom line, the Suns need to clean house with some of their veteran role players, and create a balanced roster that provides opportunities for our young players. Last time I checked, we are in year 2 of the rebuild. Start looking to the future and stop focusing on being the 8th seed, build a foundation.

[amcfad27]

Team is too small

[MrMiyagi]

I hear Mike Brown is available

[MrMiyagi]

But seriously, I think this team is in the phase of looking for a trade. We've got a bunch of good assets a true contender would want so we're showing them off. The season is just now getting into full swing and we're starting to see who is for real and who isn't. Moves will start in a month or so. Until then we just gotta sit tight.

The Tradables (IMO)
PJ -> To make room for TJ
Isaiah -> To make room for Tyler
Green -> to make room for Archie

Isaiah and PJ are the most likely to be moved. Green still has some value for us as a gunner off the bench and Archie is a little too raw right now. Of course we are looking for a big, but I don't think any are immediately available. We may even ride this season out with who we have, pray we land the Laker pick and make our moves in the offseason.

[mybloodisorange]

Jeff is right...they are going through the motions waiting for the trade deadline. Something is going to happen.

[kennydorglas]

I dont think he's THE problem, but he isnt helping either.
You need to put your best players in a better position to succeed.

[Jdiddy701]

Jeff is not the problem, but he needs to switch up the starters.


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[Puff]

It's not Hornacek, it's the teams effort.

1. Our effort sucks and it's not consistent.
The only reason why we were successful last year is because we out hustled so many other teams. This year we aren't the team hustling.

2. We aren't playing team ball.
Moving the ball wasn't our strength last year either, but it's even more of a problem now. We need to swing the ball like the Nash led Suns teams of the past.

3. Our defense sucks
When we play a team that is giving it their all on defense, it's either a team playing a very aggressive zone or a team playing very tight man to man defense. Every one of their players is up in the jock of our players and is denying the pass. Our guards have to work just to get the ball past mid-court because there are no clear open players. Our team almost never pays defense this tight. No one is denying the pass. No one is in the jockstrap of the opposing player. Some of this is just effort.

I'd say we can start by moving PJ back into the starting lineup, but given his troubled summer and recent suspension, I just hope he has his head on straight and isn't drinking again. We need him to lead by example. He can't do that if he's out getting wasted and missing the team bus.

I do not get it.

You say none of this is Hornacek's s fault and it is all about team effort. Isn't that Hornacek's most important job. His main job is to get the team to play hard every night? Yet he continues to give playing time to players not playing with effort and playing the wrong way.

To repeat most of this group would be on the bench in San Antonio. Popovich would probably blow a fuse by the midway point of the first quarter or sooner and not because of the refs.

Last years team played with effort and Jeff got all the credit. Why doesn't he get the heat now, when they do not play with effort?

In addition, if anyone likes the offensive system we are running, raise your hand.

I think it stinks. That is on Jeff as well.

IMO, with this system and new players we will still stink up the joint on most nights.

Stop babying him, he is a grown man.

[Gorilla Warfare]

Nobody talks about Jeff Hornacek like that.





And he's not even biracial.

[lilfishi22]

Line up management and running plays are the two biggest issues in my opinion and those issues are both in Hornacek's court.

1. Line up Management
- Tucker needs to start. He brings it every second he is on the court and sets the tone for the team defensively.
- Mook needs to come off the bench to provide what Tolliver hasn't been giving us, more consistent 3PT shooting and just generally not being a liability on the court.
- I'm in favor of Len starting as long as we manage his minutes correctly and we run plays for him.
- Allow Bledsoe and Dragic a little bit of time on their own where they are the sole PG.
- Give Warren minutes. He's a guy that can contribute now.

2. Running Plays
- Involve Len offensively. Simple PnP or run plays to allow him to get the ball on the weak side. Even though he doesn't have a developed big man offensive repertoire, he can hit the mid range shot and more importantly he can hit FT's. Get him involved, get him fouled and get him easy points.
- Keef being a stretch-4 clearly isn't working. He's shooting more 3 pointers but he's shooting a lower % than he ever has in his career. Keef can still do his stretch-4 thing but from the mid range because defenders have to respect his mid-range game. Let him work the triple threat with his passing and face up game.
- Our starting forwards all need to be running picks after picks after picks. No one should be ball watching. Get our PG's open and their passing game will improve.

[Nando88]

Lol quote from Hornacek from today's practice via Brightside:

On possible changes to line-ups:

"We've looked at things. But it's not like we're bad at any of the spots, we're just not great at it. But that's a possibility. As of today, we're keeping the same group in there. We'll continue to discuss that. It's all going to be if we need more energy off the bench, or if we need more energy starting, we're always looking at that stuff."


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[Revived]

I wanna ask all Suns fans this....do you want the Suns to be a fast paced, uptempo offense with 2 PG system that has 0 plays in the half court and garbage defense? Or do you want the Suns to be a team that is good in all phases of the game?

Do you think last year's success was because of the 2 PG, fast paced system or because we caught teams who expected us to suck off guard?

Looks like teams have adjusted to us now and realize what we do. Its pretty easy to stop.

I'm not saying its easy or possible to suddenly become good in all phases of the game. But the way its set up now, the Suns system is more about chucking 3s than anything else.

This team won't suck the way it is set up now but it won't be a top team either. It will be nothing more than average. You will hear Adam Silver at the podium announcing the 14th pick for the Suns next June.

I have seen the fast paced, high octane offense since the D'Antoni days but I would like to see a Suns team who cares more about playing defense than fast breaks. I realize that may not suit the strengths of many of our players but if that is the case, then lets trade them for guys who do or get assets who will.

I think we do have guys on this roster who can play well in half court and we also have guys who can only really produce in a fast offense.

I want the Suns to get a HC who is capable of creating good half court plays, teach defense and also run in transition only if the situation allows. An example? Steve Kerr and the Golden State Warriors. Mark Jackson had them running iso ball and ask any Warriors fan about the difference Kerr has made there. He's having them share the ball and also playing defense.

I'm not putting everything on Hornacek cause this roster is incredibly flawed. But he's part of the problem.

When is someone gonna create a "Is McDonough the problem" thread? It wouldn't be fair to put this all on Hornacek.

I'm fine with the Suns sucking for a year or two if it means we can develop Len, Morris twins, Ennis, Goodwin, and especially, TJ Warren. We have the right mix of vets and youngsters...but we refuse to give the youngsters good minutes.

Suns are the only non playoff team in the entire NBA who doesn't develop its own rookies. I think Kieff was the last one. Do we want to continue that route?

[BurningHeart]

We're trying to be a running, shooting team but we don't have players reliable, consistent, or smart enough to do it.

That's really it.

[Nando88]

This team lacks in the BBIQ dept.


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[lilfishi22]

I wanna ask all Suns fans this....do you want the Suns to be a fast paced, uptempo offense with 2 PG system that has 0 plays in the half court and garbage defense? Or do you want the Suns to be a team that is good in all phases of the game?

Do you think last year's success was because of the 2 PG, fast paced system or because we caught teams who expected us to suck off guard?

Looks like teams have adjusted to us now and realize what we do. Its pretty easy to stop.

I'm not saying its easy or possible to suddenly become good in all phases of the game. But the way its set up now, the Suns system is more about chucking 3s than anything else.

This team won't suck the way it is set up now but it won't be a top team either. It will be nothing more than average. You will hear Adam Silver at the podium announcing the 14th pick for the Suns next June.

I have seen the fast paced, high octane offense since the D'Antoni days but I would like to see a Suns team who cares more about playing defense than fast breaks. I realize that may not suit the strengths of many of our players but if that is the case, then lets trade them for guys who do or get assets who will.

I think we do have guys on this roster who can play well in half court and we also have guys who can only really produce in a fast offense.

I want the Suns to get a HC who is capable of creating good half court plays, teach defense and also run in transition only if the situation allows. An example? Steve Kerr and the Golden State Warriors. Mark Jackson had them running iso ball and ask any Warriors fan about the difference Kerr has made there. He's having them share the ball and also playing defense.

I'm not putting everything on Hornacek cause this roster is incredibly flawed. But he's part of the problem.

When is someone gonna create a "Is McDonough the problem" thread? It wouldn't be fair to put this all on Hornacek.

I'm fine with the Suns sucking for a year or two if it means we can develop Len, Morris twins, Ennis, Goodwin, and especially, TJ Warren. We have the right mix of vets and youngsters...but we refuse to give the youngsters good minutes.

Suns are the only non playoff team in the entire NBA who doesn't develop its own rookies. I think Kieff was the last one. Do we want to continue that route?

Great point. Although to be fair, the Warriors do have the roster to play championship level defense unlike us.

But nonetheless we had a flawed roster last year as well. Difference is we identified the one play we were great (Dragic/Frye PnP) and we built plays around that. It was close to unstoppable because we built plays around that play which opened up options for Dragic. More importantly it worked in the half court set and it can be used at any time in the shot clock and you can find an open man.

We need to find that one play from all the plays we've run (whether planned or inadvertently) this season and build off it. Get other players involved and don't just rely on Dragic, Bledsoe and Thomas trying to iso all the time. Let's get the ball moving, let's get other players involved and let's start working each player's strength into our schemes.

[Revived]

I wanna ask all Suns fans this....do you want the Suns to be a fast paced, uptempo offense with 2 PG system that has 0 plays in the half court and garbage defense? Or do you want the Suns to be a team that is good in all phases of the game?

Do you think last year's success was because of the 2 PG, fast paced system or because we caught teams who expected us to suck off guard?

Looks like teams have adjusted to us now and realize what we do. Its pretty easy to stop.

I'm not saying its easy or possible to suddenly become good in all phases of the game. But the way its set up now, the Suns system is more about chucking 3s than anything else.

This team won't suck the way it is set up now but it won't be a top team either. It will be nothing more than average. You will hear Adam Silver at the podium announcing the 14th pick for the Suns next June.

I have seen the fast paced, high octane offense since the D'Antoni days but I would like to see a Suns team who cares more about playing defense than fast breaks. I realize that may not suit the strengths of many of our players but if that is the case, then lets trade them for guys who do or get assets who will.

I think we do have guys on this roster who can play well in half court and we also have guys who can only really produce in a fast offense.

I want the Suns to get a HC who is capable of creating good half court plays, teach defense and also run in transition only if the situation allows. An example? Steve Kerr and the Golden State Warriors. Mark Jackson had them running iso ball and ask any Warriors fan about the difference Kerr has made there. He's having them share the ball and also playing defense.

I'm not putting everything on Hornacek cause this roster is incredibly flawed. But he's part of the problem.

When is someone gonna create a "Is McDonough the problem" thread? It wouldn't be fair to put this all on Hornacek.

I'm fine with the Suns sucking for a year or two if it means we can develop Len, Morris twins, Ennis, Goodwin, and especially, TJ Warren. We have the right mix of vets and youngsters...but we refuse to give the youngsters good minutes.

Suns are the only non playoff team in the entire NBA who doesn't develop its own rookies. I think Kieff was the last one. Do we want to continue that route?

Great point. Although to be fair, the Warriors do have the roster to play championship level defense unlike us.

But nonetheless we had a flawed roster last year as well. Difference is we identified the one play we were great (Dragic/Frye PnP) and we built plays around that. It was close to unstoppable because we built plays around that play which opened up options for Dragic. More importantly it worked in the half court set and it can be used at any time in the shot clock and you can find an open man.

We need to find that one play from all the plays we've run (whether planned or inadvertently) this season and build off it. Get other players involved and don't just rely on Dragic, Bledsoe and Thomas trying to iso all the time. Let's get the ball moving, let's get other players involved and let's start working each player's strength into our schemes.

Yea but you have to realize that most of that success came when Bledsoe got injured. I don't think we produced as much from the Frye/Dragic pick and roll when Bledsoe was healthy.

We can't just have one play because what happens then is that when that one play isn't working, everyone goes back to iso.

It worked last year but again, I think teams are more observant this year. They know what we do. That's why it isn't working with Tolliver or Kieff. It wouldn't work with Frye either because teams have adjusted to it.

Other teams scouting reports vs the Suns probably says this: "Stop the Suns pick and pop with whichever stretch 4 they use, get back in transition and don't leave 3pt shooters open when they go to iso ball".

Oh and also destroy them on the defensive end and kill em on the boards.

Its too easy.

And again, by saying you want Frye or 3pt chucking 4 instead of a decent defensive big man who can also score in the post, your saying that you want the Suns to be a 3pt shooting team that disregards the other phases of the game. Is that what you want?