Game 21: Phoenix Suns (12-8) @ Houston Rockets (15-4)

[RunDogGun]

Who here would take Jimmy Butler and Taj Gibson from Chicago? Care to take a guess when they were drafted? With good scouting, we could have drafted them, even if we were a top seeded playoff team.

[letsgosuns]

The Suns have not drafted any high impact players themselves since Colangelo owned the team. They either traded or sold all of their picks or drafted players that did not do anything. Goran Dragic is the only player I can think of off the top of my head who is anything close to an impact player the Suns drafted in recent memory. Markieff is not someone I consider an impact player. Just another role player so far in his career that has really good games every now and then. The Suns current group of rookies is the first time the team has had young players with serious upside in a long time.

There is also something I have to say. When Amare was a rookie, the Suns were just a meddling team with Gugliotta as the starter. It was not until he got injured that forced the Suns to start Amare and the rest is history. That is another problem with this current Suns team. They are playing guys like Tucker and Marcus Morris instead of playing Warren. The Suns are nowhere near a contending team and I am a firm believer in throwing rookies out there to develop. Are either Tucker or Marcus Morris star players? Not even close. NOT EVEN CLOSE. Put Warren out there right now. He has a chance to be a star, not Tucker or Marcus.

The hard truth is that the Suns are not a good team. They are not bad, but they are not good. Good teams do not consistently lose to teams they should beat. That simple. The current Suns front office needs to take a history lesson and realize the best teams in Suns history were built around players the Suns drafted themselves, with Barkley being the exception. Time to play the rookies and get over it. Stop being a team that hovers around .500 and has no hope for a championship. That is such a dumb position to be in. Start Len, play Warren 20 minutes a game, even give Goodwin ten minutes a game. Those guys are the real future of the team. Not the Morris brothers, Tolliver, or whoever else blocks the young guys from playing. You never become a title contender playing the same mediocre players over and over again.

[RunDogGun]

Cool story, one flaw, none of our rookies are athletic freaks like Amare was. And since his rookie season was a finisher to one of the best assist guys that season, there are huge differences in variables. Oh, and Googs only started 11 of the 27 games he played that season.

If Jeff feels that Warren isn't better than Tucker or Marcus, which seems apparent by playing time and starting, then I would have to trust his judgement.

Now I can see Warren taking all of Tolliver's minutes, just because Tolliver hasn't panned out yet, or just hasn't found the right unit to play with (yes I realize I just said unit to play with). But Warren isn't a better defender than Tucker, so that one is moot. And I think Marcus is going to start to get more PF minutes, and I don't think Warren is ready to play the four.

Oh well it's all moot. Jeff isn't giving up on the players he trusts. The players just have to step up, and start playing as a team.

[MrMiyagi]

I'd rather have theGORTAT 9 times outta 10 than Len now, or whatever he may be 2-3 yrs from now. You guys are holding back the dam that says BUST on him with comments like 'he's young...he's not in game shape.... he was injured (it was a Fn pinky!)...'slowly becoming confident (thats a beaut). I'm not saying he won't be any good.... but there may be good reason H'cek does not play him. Perhaps he does not or can not grasp simple BBall concepts.

There is a woodpile full of 7 foot kindling out back. They don't all make it in the league, and it makes no difference where they are drafted. He looks lost to me... and really not that fluid moving up and down the court. He is a big maybe, with an army of apologists cheering him on.

Back to theGORTAT.... IMO, a blunder move dealing him. Sure we got Warren, but we had to draft a big then.
McDo has not been 100% Midas. GrownAssMan is a double double almost every night.

I just hate small ball so much. The Suns could not secure rebounds when they needed them because Hornacek has a lineup of two point guards, two small forwards, and a power forward out there in crunch time. How are you supposed to win like that?

I too am tired of small ball. It was a wonderful circus when we had the ringmaster nash guy and his supporting cast.... but even he could not make the show go on once the talent around him departed. We just do not have the speed and athleticism from our front lines to recreate the greatest show on Earth. Successful small ball was all about speed and fast breaks....treys and trailers... These guys don't grasp it.
We go small ball because our 'big ball' sucks.

Because Gortat didn't have a slow start to his career. Oh, wait.....

[thamadkant]

Nobody builds for an eighth seed! Can people stop saying that. However, even if you build for a championship team, the OUTCOME may be only the eighth seed. You crystalballers need to be more rational.

Re-read McDonough and Babby's statements when McD was signed..

He was going to build for the long term and with championship aspirations, not short term middle of the pack 8th seed etc.

There is a MASSIVE difference
Young team with UPSIDE fighting for the 8th seed = Good direction towards a championship contender
Old team, passed their prime or ALREADY in their prime fighting for 8th seed = Short term vision

The former is what McD wants because that team can always build upon its core by trading a couple of assets for stars that can BOOST them to contendership... the current Suns are sort of on this path.

The latter was what the Suns were when they had Nash, Hill, Gortat, Carter etc.

[RunDogGun]

Nobody builds for an eighth seed! Can people stop saying that. However, even if you build for a championship team, the OUTCOME may be only the eighth seed. You crystalballers need to be more rational.

Re-read McDonough and Babby's statements when McD was signed..

He was going to build for the long term and with championship aspirations, not short term middle of the pack 8th seed etc.

There is a MASSIVE difference
Young team with UPSIDE fighting for the 8th seed = Good direction towards a championship contender
Old team, passed their prime or ALREADY in their prime fighting for 8th seed = Short term vision

The former is what McD wants because that team can always build upon its core by trading a couple of assets for stars that can BOOST them to contendership... the current Suns are sort of on this path.

The latter was what the Suns were when they had Nash, Hill, Gortat, Carter etc.

You do realize you are proving my point, right? Nobody builds for an eighth seed.

[bigfoot]

Nobody builds for an eighth seed! Can people stop saying that. However, even if you build for a championship team, the OUTCOME may be only the eighth seed. You crystalballers need to be more rational.

Re-read McDonough and Babby's statements when McD was signed..

He was going to build for the long term and with championship aspirations, not short term middle of the pack 8th seed etc.

There is a MASSIVE difference
Young team with UPSIDE fighting for the 8th seed = Good direction towards a championship contender
Old team, passed their prime or ALREADY in their prime fighting for 8th seed = Short term vision

The former is what McD wants because that team can always build upon its core by trading a couple of assets for stars that can BOOST them to contendership... the current Suns are sort of on this path.

The latter was what the Suns were when they had Nash, Hill, Gortat, Carter etc.

You do realize you are proving my point, right? Nobody builds for an eighth seed.

Yep the Suns are the seventh youngest team in the league. The teams below them

Sixers
Jazz
Celtics
Pelicans
Wolves
Magic

All those teams are younger and all have losing records. Suns old guys are Randolph, Tolliver, and Tucker, 31, 29, and 29, respectively. We are young and building in the correct direction. You don't go from last place to championship contender in one season. If Len, Warren, Goodwin, and Ennis develop over the next two seasons we will be fine. They will all be the ripe old age of 22-24.

[letsgosuns]

Cool story, one flaw, none of our rookies are athletic freaks like Amare was. And since his rookie season was a finisher to one of the best assist guys that season, there are huge differences in variables. Oh, and Googs only started 11 of the 27 games he played that season.

If Jeff feels that Warren isn't better than Tucker or Marcus, which seems apparent by playing time and starting, then I would have to trust his judgement.

Now I can see Warren taking all of Tolliver's minutes, just because Tolliver hasn't panned out yet, or just hasn't found the right unit to play with (yes I realize I just said unit to play with). But Warren isn't a better defender than Tucker, so that one is moot. And I think Marcus is going to start to get more PF minutes, and I don't think Warren is ready to play the four.

Oh well it's all moot. Jeff isn't giving up on the players he trusts. The players just have to step up, and start playing as a team.

I know they are not like Amare when he was a rookie. However, Warren and especially Goodwin are still extremely athletic. Practice is only going to get them so far. They need to play. Basically, as a fan, I want to see them play. I do not want to see the team continue to play guys like Tucker, Marcus, and Tolliver. Tucker is the best of those three and he is still like an extremely poor man's Bruce Bowen. He only serves a purpose as a role player when there is elite talent around him, which there is not. I would be fine with Tucker if the Suns had a couple of all-stars in their lineup but they do not. Bledsoe and Dragic are second tier stars (although I think Bledsoe has real star potential). The power forward and center combination of Markieff, Tolliver, Plumlee, and then Len is atrocious defensively. Len is the only one of those four players I like. Tolliver and Plumlee (who I used to be so high on) are playing like garbage. Markieff is a glorified bench player. Len is the only one that I believe can become an impact center, hence why I want him to start.

[Frank Lee]

You do realize you are proving my point, right? Nobody builds for an eighth seed.

Yet .... we are just that... and no changes will result in no better than 8. So in essence.... if we stand pat, McDo built an 8th seed contender.

I am sure McDo is considering all options at this point... and picking up IT has given him more flexibility.
I am still banking on Bledsoe being as much as a trade chip as anyone... and maybe, just maybe, the slim minutes for Len just might be to spare him from injury/exposure in an effort to trade him as well. We need a big move to make a difference.

I think everyone is on the table, and they should be.


PS.... I'm leaning your way letsgo

[MrMiyagi]

You do realize you are proving my point, right? Nobody builds for an eighth seed.

Yet .... we are just that... and no changes will result in no better than 8. So in essence.... if we stand pat, McDo built an 8th seed contender.

I am sure McDo is considering all options at this point... and picking up IT has given him more flexibility.
I am still banking on Bledsoe being as much as a trade chip as anyone... and maybe, just maybe, the slim minutes for Len just might be to spare him from injury/exposure in an effort to trade him as well. We need a big move to make a difference.

I think everyone is on the table, and they should be.


PS.... I'm leaning your way letsgo

Because none of our guys can keep getting better... All of the draft picks we've made were just to be traded, and not developed.....

Not saying a trade isn't in the future, but damn, 1/4 of the way through a season is really enough to know what this team is, huh?

[inquisitive]

Good game.....you guys aren't happy with Len? I think he is pretty decent and can be good...why not just be patient and let him develop? If you don't want to wait, then get a center in the draft with very likely lotto pick from Rockets...a TPE, Pelicans lotto pick, and 2nd rd pick for Dragic. You don't have to worry about bad contracts in return. Get something for Dragic before he walks away in free agency.

[Barkley_34]

Good game.....you guys aren't happy with Len? I think he is pretty decent and can be good...why not just be patient and let him develop? If you don't want to wait, then get a center in the draft with very likely lotto pick from Rockets...a TPE, Pelicans lotto pick, and 2nd rd pick for Dragic. You don't have to worry about bad contracts in return. Get something for Dragic before he walks away in free agency.

keep dreaming

[Revived]

Re-read McDonough and Babby's statements when McD was signed..

He was going to build for the long term and with championship aspirations, not short term middle of the pack 8th seed etc.

There is a MASSIVE difference
Young team with UPSIDE fighting for the 8th seed = Good direction towards a championship contender
Old team, passed their prime or ALREADY in their prime fighting for 8th seed = Short term vision

The former is what McD wants because that team can always build upon its core by trading a couple of assets for stars that can BOOST them to contendership... the current Suns are sort of on this path.

The latter was what the Suns were when they had Nash, Hill, Gortat, Carter etc.

You do realize you are proving my point, right? Nobody builds for an eighth seed.

Yep the Suns are the seventh youngest team in the league. The teams below them

Sixers
Jazz
Celtics
Pelicans
Wolves
Magic

All those teams are younger and all have losing records. Suns old guys are Randolph, Tolliver, and Tucker, 31, 29, and 29, respectively. We are young and building in the correct direction. You don't go from last place to championship contender in one season. If Len, Warren, Goodwin, and Ennis develop over the next two seasons we will be fine. They will all be the ripe old age of 22-24.

Here's the difference, all those teams play their rookies and sophomores WAY more than the Suns do.

[Scutt]

^ Exactly. In my opinion, we only play two young guys, who have high ceilings, in our rotation. Those two are Bledsoe and Len. The Morris Bros, IT, and Plumlee are all relatively young and can refine/improve somewhat, but they pretty much are what they are at this point, role players. Dragic, Green, and Tucker are good role playing veterans who have reached their ceilings. If we are a rebuilding team, we need to have more than two young guys with star potential getting minutes. This team is lacking too much talent to justify having Goodwin rot another year on the bench and Warren only seeing garbage time. I would like to see a trade/s that free up rotation minutes for those two.

[gaspar]

Goodwin is not a good basketball player and playing him 20 mpg is not gonna change that. He's more likely be out of the league when his rookie contract is up, than be a rotation player on a winning team. Austin Rivers got all the minutes in his first 2 years in the league and he's still a terrible basketball player. On the other hand Jimmy Butler played only 360 minutes in his rookie year and he's doing just fine. Giving young players minutes they don't deserve will not make them magically a better basketball players. If a player has the talent and work ethic, he will improve no matter how many minutes he gets.

[sunskerr]

^ Exactly. In my opinion, we only play two young guys, who have high ceilings, in our rotation. Those two are Bledsoe and Len. The Morris Bros, IT, and Plumlee are all relatively young and can refine/improve somewhat, but they pretty much are what they are at this point, role players. Dragic, Green, and Tucker are good role playing veterans who have reached their ceilings. If we are a rebuilding team, we need to have more than two young guys with star potential getting minutes. This team is lacking too much talent to justify having Goodwin rot another year on the bench and Warren only seeing garbage time. I would like to see a trade/s that free up rotation minutes for those two.

Lost it @ Dragic is a role player. He was 3rd team all nba last year. That's better than an all-star.

I want you pro tankers to go look at stats for how likely it is that a team with a losing record continues to lose and does so for an extended period of time. You can all talk amongst yourselves in your echo chamber but reality awaits outside.

At this point we are an 8th seed but we are maybe 1 legitimate player away from being in that hallowed tier of upper-western conference teams. I'd rather take my chances in free agency or a trade than the draft. That's what the Lakers did after their bubble seasons of 2005-2007. They waited for an opportunity to trade. Houston signed Dwight, Dallas signed Parsons. They didn't draft those guys and become contenders.

Sorry, everyone here is obsessed with the OKC model of 15 guys 25 and younger containing 3 stars. But I'm here to tell you it's a load of crap and rarely ever happens. That's not what you want to hear but it's what you need to hear. At this point it's easier for our team to contend by trading for/signing good players than to bottom out and lose for many years. That's pretty much all there is to it.

And if you're still crazy for a high draft pick, we still have that Lakers pick coming up this year - I think there's a decent chance we obtain it if they stay healthy.

[letsgosuns]

I think some people mistake wanting to start Len, play Warren extended minutes, and give Goodwin a chance as meaning I want the Suns to tank. It is the opposite. The way Suns are playing now, they are not going to be any better than they already are. They are treading water. An 8th seed at best. I believe if the Suns start playing their young guys and develop them, they will improve dramatically. Yes those guys will probably have some growing pains at first but in the end, I think the young guys are the ones that could elevate this team to another level.

The Suns have four first round picks on the team in Len, Warren, Goodwin, and Ennis who are all supposedly high character guys with massive upside. Yet those guys hardly ever play with the exception of Len averaging 18 minutes a game. The Suns continue to go with the Morris brothers, Tucker, Tolliver, and Plumlee. None of those guys are exciting to watch or seem like they are going to get any better than they already are. I am really disappointed in the Morris brothers because they are so inconsistent and you never know what they will do. Markieff plays great against the Mavs and then plays terrible against the Rockets. That happens too often.

Warren should get Marcus' minutes and Len should be starting. If trades have to be made to free up minutes for the young players, so be it. I would love to see Warren and Len out there all the time with Bledsoe and Dragic and see how that goes.

[aIvin adams]

I'm glad Ryan McDonough is the suns' real GM

[Frank Lee]

letsgo with a good summary

Believe me, I am not saying tank, I am saying TRADE, and it better be a good one. Tiny ball is a gimmick. We are not RunTMC. Its not a strategy by choice, it is one from lack of the correct personnel to do anything else. We have no PF depth or size, inexperienced marginal Cs, and outside of Dragic and Bled, a team of role playing second stringers. Something has to change.

I'm glad Ryan McDonough is the suns' real GM

Me too for the most part... but as he builds a book of business, his new car smell evaporates. Proof will be in the pudding. So many here anointed him a savior, based on one deal (Dud 4 Bled). True judgement awaits.

[Scutt]

I never suggested that the Suns should "tank". Seriously, you can be competive AND develope young talent at the same time, they are not exclusive. That's what I want the Suns to do. I just want rotation minutes for the young guys. I also never said Goodwin should be playing 20 minutes a game, I'd be happy to see him get half that. He averaged 8 minutes a game as a rookie, but this year he is only averaging 3 minutes or so, in only a handful of appearances. That's unacceptable to me. I don't want to tank, I want to see a trade that balances the roster and provides ROTATION minutes for the young players. Goodwin and Warren seeing the court is not going to send this team into a tailspin, leading to a last place finish, in fact, we could very well improve. If we dont, is being the 10th of 11th seed really that much worse than 9th, especially knowing the young ones will get meaningful experience?

I'm a big dragic fan, but let's be real, the guy is 28 and had everything fall into place last year in order for him to average 20 and 6. He also has to be the #1 guy to get those numbers. He is never going to be a perennial all-star, and by the time we are ready to contend again, he will be on the downhill of his career. He is an excellent player and I wouldnt mind seeing him stick around, but I think its safe to say that he has hit his ceiling. In a league full of good point guards, he is replaceable. Last time i checked, we have two on our roster who are arguably better with more potential right now.

I disagree with the notion that we one "legit" player away from being a contender. We are one away from simply being a playoff team, unless that player is a superstar, and you have to give to get in this league. Where would that leave us?