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Game 22: Phoenix Suns (12-9) @ LA Clippers (14-5)

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Re: Game 22: Phoenix Suns (12-9) @ LA Clippers (14-5) 

Post#461 » by b-ball forever » Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:07 am

RunDogGun wrote:
b-ball forever wrote:Bledsoe is our best player, and despite not being on the same level anymore Dragic remains more popular among Suns fans, but I don't think it has much to do with race.

It's more due to Dragic's likeable personality and longer tenure on the team.

And maybe just maybe, it's because Dragic did everything for us last year, and made all NBA team? Oh, and seems to run the offense better.

But why do we have to chose one or the other? We have both. Let's stop pitting them against each other. This seems to happen to justify trading one away. :(

His high level of play last year is part of his tenure.

That said, neither of Dragic or Bledsoe are pure PG's, but Bledsoe's the one who runs the offense better and has better playmaking ability.

And while Dragic was better than Bledsoe last year, a big reason for that was the fact that Bledsoe was injured for a big chunk of the season. In the games Bledsoe was healthy their level of play was close since Dragic's individual production went up in the games Bledsoe was injured, but the Suns won a lot more games with Bledsoe healthy.

It'd be nice to keep all of our backcourt and just add on a quality bigman, but there isn't much minutes to go around and realistically one of Bledsoe/Dragic/IT/Green will have to either get traded or accept a reduced role.
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Re: Game 22: Phoenix Suns (12-9) @ LA Clippers (14-5) 

Post#462 » by RunDogGun » Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:25 am

I disagree on the playmaker point, and on the running the squad, but who cares, we have them both. We don't have to choose. We have two guard starting positions and two high quality guards. Case closed.

It is already clear who will take a smaller role, and that has been Green and IT. But all our guards have had terrible games this season, borderline horrendous.

I still don't understand why they have to be pitted against each other. Both are good, and both are better on different nights, and that is just this season.
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Re: Game 22: Phoenix Suns (12-9) @ LA Clippers (14-5) 

Post#463 » by Revived » Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:30 am

TASTIC wrote:
NavLDO wrote:
TASTIC wrote:I just don't see it.

I really hope he proves me wrong and all the other doubters, I just think he's too fragile and I'm not sure the Suns are the best fit for him in terms of his personal growth. He NEVER gets plays run for him, he is quick but not overly fluid down the court (ie DAJ or young Amare etc) and he's only slightly better in REBS/BLK than Plumlee (per-36).

I think he's a good 6-8 year starter, like even now he should be a starter, but I'd rather Dieng, Olynyk or O'Quinn over him just as examples.

I guess it depends what you deem 'franchise center' - there aren't THAT many out there, most are PFs masquerading as Cs, ie Cousins, Horford, Jefferson, Bosh etc.

If Len can get us a legit starting C now, then I pull the trigger if we're getting a relatively young (ie under 30, no injury issues) - ie a guy like Favors is perfect...and thus, unavailable! :banghead:

Why not go to DET and just offer Len, Ennis, Tucker, LAL pick for Drummond - worse case scenario they say no!


A couple of notes. 1st, partially agree with your trade proposal, but, I'd swap out Len for Plumlee, and Ennis for IT, and add a couple of picks or Bogdanovich. Drummond would be nice to have, for sure, and since they have Monroe, they could make him work in place of Drummond. I understand that Len would be the "prize piece" in that trade, but every effort should be made to NOT include him and include Plumlee--Plumlee would be good for a reserve role for them and IT would be a plug-n-play starter for them right now, vice Ennis.

2nd, you mention PFs masquerading as Cs, yet two of the three guys you mentioned over Len are just that, and the other would be more "fragile" than Len, as Olynyk is just 235lbs soaking wet. At 7', he won't be able to hold up against the larger Cs of the league.

Olynyk - 7', 234lbs
Dieng - 6'10+", 230lbs
O'Quinn - 6'10", 241lbs

Len is a legit 7'1", and while listed as 255, he's put on muscle in the off-season and he's still growing into his body. He's had a couple of minor injuries, but they were to the same finger, right? His ankles are GTG and haven't been an issue since fixed, so I don't necessarily view him as 'fragile'. Also, understanding that he's still only 21, and the others listed range between 23-25.

My point is that I would argue that Len is more a "franchise center" than any of the 3 you listed. I would take any of those three in addition to Len, but not in place of him.

I agree that there are just a handful of "franchise centers" in the league, but I disagree that Len won't be one. Again, he's only 21, and realistically, in his 1st year of play. As much as we all want him to start and be productive this season, I think that's a bit unrealistic. I absolutely agree that he needs to start, but feel we all need to manage our expectations of him until, at a minimum, the 2016 season. It's unrealistic to expect him to be a stud center right now. Yes, there are others that have played the past couple of seasons and seem to be better than he is, but again, he's only 21, and these other guys are simply more mature and their "bodies and minds" were more prepared for the rigors of the NBA.

I know it seems I'm trying to tell you and everyone else what and how to think about Len's progress and play to this point, but really, I'm just trying to point out a couple of items regarding Len and feel they are worthy of consideration when attempting to compare Len to other young centers in the league, and how I'm looking at the situation. But if I'm wrong and being overly patient or making too many excuses for Len, then I guess I'm wrong.

I'm just really saying that I wouldn't trade Len for anything right now (OK, LeBron, Durant, notwithstanding). He should not be part of any trade discussions and be "off the block" as it were, until at the earliest, the trade deadline of the 2016 season. At that time, he'll be 23, and have (hopefully) a couple of full seasons under his belt by then. Just think about it--by then, he may be on the cusp of being an All-Star Center, and we'll have the opportunity to have him in his prime for 7-8 years following that. I truly believe he'll be a key component to us building that "Big 3" by then. If not, then, at that time, decide what to do with him. As is, with no progression, he's a solid bench 5.

And BTW, just for giggles, he's a comparison of the four:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y4=2015

I was nodding til I got to the bolded part.

Len is not untouchable, nor should he be. If a player who is better is available, you make the deal.

You're telling me if UTA or DET or phoned and said 'Len for Favors/Drummond/', you'd say no? Come on...

I think because so many of us want the Suns to get a legit C, we're putting blinders on and anointing Len something he's likely not.

Again, I HOPE I'm wrong and I'll be the first to admit it if I am!

I'm with you on this.

We're a team who has missed playoffs in 5 of the past 6 seasons. Nobody is untouchable.
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Re: Game 22: Phoenix Suns (12-9) @ LA Clippers (14-5) 

Post#464 » by NavLDO » Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:00 am

TASTIC wrote:
JDLAW wrote:
TASTIC wrote:I just don't see it.

I really hope he proves me wrong and all the other doubters, I just think he's too fragile and I'm not sure the Suns are the best fit for him in terms of his personal growth. He NEVER gets plays run for him, he is quick but not overly fluid down the court (ie DAJ or young Amare etc) and he's only slightly better in REBS/BLK than Plumlee (per-36).

I think he's a good 6-8 year starter, like even now he should be a starter, but I'd rather Dieng, Olynyk or O'Quinn over him just as examples.


Perhaps you just need to open your eyes a little more. None of these three are better than Len or will be better than Len in the long run.

1UPZ wrote:I know where you are getting at...

And I and a couple of others mentioned this on a way earlier topic...

Some Suns fans simply are biased towards a white player.... there.. I said it.. again.


You can take your offensive and racist commentary/views and leave as far is I am concerned. Tools like you try to drive wedge between Dragic and Bledsoe and then pronounce supporters of Dragic biased because of skin color. I and most othe true Suns fans do not choose between the two but rather prefer both to play well and be here.

Son of Ra wrote:Anyways, for the ones complaining about Dragic; didn't he just have two great games and a great first quarter this game? The problem is that he was the main ballhandler in those games/quarter. It is just a waste to have him off ball so much. If Bledsoe and Dragic would really share handling duties 50/50 the two PG lineup would work. Like it did last year.


Absolutely

Ha, take that to the trade board and you'll be laughed out. If you offered him to BOS for Olynyk, they'd say no. Same goes for MIN with Dieng, the only one of the three who might consider it are ORL cos they're going to have to pay O'Quinn sooner than Len. Dieng I would trade Len for in a heartbeat.

Len HAS upside, I just don't think he's a franchise C. A franchise C to me is 16-18pts, 10-12reb 2+ blk per, every night. Or 14-16pts 12-14reb 2blk, those similar sorts of lines - ie BETTER than Roy Hibbert or Robin Lopez or Greg Monroe. I think his peak statistically is 13pts 9reb 2.2blk - which is useful and better than we've had in a LONG time, but that's not a franchise C, so unless he bulks up and gets over the minor injuries that keep holding him back his peak is a combo of RoLo/Hibbert.

He needs to start now as well. I want him to succeed, I've just been burned too much by youngsters who showed promise/physical ability that made them look like legit NBA prospects (i.e DJ Strawberry and Earl Clark!).


I think you are confusing "franchise" with "All-NBA". All of FIVE Centers this year meet your standard of "Franchise" (Cousins, Bosh, Gasol, Howard, and Vucevic). What you consider "useful" is actually much closer to being a Franchise Center. Heck, only 9 Centers meet that standard. Some are close, and meet one of your criteria, but not the other. Only 11 Centers are averaging 13+ Pts, and only 13 are averaging 8+ Rebs. If Len averages 13/9, he will most definitely meet the criteria as a Franchise Center. He won't be an All-Star or All-NBA with those stats, but I think he'll actually end up closer to the 14-16pts/9-10rebs per game, and if he does that, he'll be an All-Star--maybe not perennially, but every once in awhile.
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Re: Game 22: Phoenix Suns (12-9) @ LA Clippers (14-5) 

Post#465 » by bwgood77 » Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:01 am

SunsFanSSOL wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
gaspar wrote:**** Goran Dragic. I'm so done with him.


Yeah we get it. We all understand you and Sunsfanssol hate him.


I don't hate him, I just (unpopular opinion incoming) prefer Bledsoe. I think the 2 PG system is gimmicky and if we're going to have to choose between the two, I choose Bledsoe. I know that Dragic is inexplicably popular in Phoenix, similarly to how Nash was, except Nash was 10x the player Dragic is, and he had a personality, something Dragic lacks. If I profess any criticism of Dragic it's probably inspired by my observation that he is seemingly immune to any criticism by Suns fans whereas Bledsoe is openly critiqued. Bledsoe just had a triple double and played insane defense, yet is not receiving nearly the same amount of praise Dragic would receive had he done the same. I think this situation is similar to when we had Amare and Nash. Both were obviously great players, but it was Amare who fans often directed their ire to while Nash was impervious to negative comments despite having flaws.


I hear ya. I think they work well together, but it isn't something you want to do 100% of the time, and it works well if one of them can always be in the game, but half the time one of them is playing with a pure shooting guard. I don't think the two point guard system should necessarily be used 100% of the time, and you have to have two guys who don't mind playing off the ball at times. It worked well last year and recently because when one sits, the other guy runs everything.

I obviously prefer the athleticism of Bledsoe, but I'm not sure about his basketball iq and decision making at times (leading to tons of turnovers at times). Dragic seems to be the smarter craftier player, but obviously he can't do everything Bledsoe can, particularly on defense.

I like the system now, and I think Dragic should be re-signed, even if it's only to keep him as an asset for later....we shouldn't let him walk for nothing. If Bledsoe is just going through growing pains and his iq and turnovers work themselves out over time, and he proves he can stay healthy, it could make sense to trade Dragic to upgrade elsewhere (it sounds like it makes perfect sense but you never know who will trade what and who wants or needs a point guard...not many teams). I don't think he holds a nearly as much trade value now as an impending free agent though.

Even if the turnovers don't improve much, Bledsoe is still probably the choice (if you had to make one) if he can stay healthy, because of his age, athleticism and potential upside.

I don't know we really need to make a choice though or if we would or could ever get equal value in a trade and whether that would hurt chemistry.

For the record, I think Amare took way too much criticism (and still does). Look at the rest of his draft class. I don't think more than maybe one or two guys from that top 10 are in the league anymore.

Early unexpected success can skew perception and give people unrealistic expectations which is kind of what has also happened with this team and Hornacek. We exceeded expectations by so much last year that now people complain and throw blame everywhere if we lose or have growing pains, whether it be Hornacek, Dragic, or whoever else.

This happened with D'Antoni too, though he certainly had his faults. Sometimes people forget to remember that the team and SSOL era probably never takes place if he wasn't there.

And by the way, Dragic and Nash's numbers at the age of 27 were extremely similar, and as a matter of fact, Dragic had the higher PER. It wasn't until he played with D'Antoni in the SSOL system when his numbers improved.

Here are their numbers side by side at the age of 27. http://bkref.com/tiny/tgsdL
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Re: Game 22: Phoenix Suns (12-9) @ LA Clippers (14-5) 

Post#466 » by NavLDO » Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:34 am

SF88 wrote:I'm with you on this.

We're a team who has missed playoffs in 5 of the past 6 seasons. Nobody is untouchable.


I wouldn't define it as being "untouchable", but who would you trade Len for? Drummond? Sure, but to package Len AND other pieces? Maybe a pick or two at most.

I certainly wouldn't trade Len for anyone over 25, and not for anything other than a PF who can play C or another C. And certainly not for Olynyk, O'Quinn, or Dieng.

My point is that we are already deficient of talented "Bigs", and the ONLY one we have with promise is Len. Plumlee, Tolliver, and Randolph are all garbage. If we trade Len for a SG or SF, or heaven forbid another PG, it would be a HUGE mistake and set us back a couple of years at least. And we at least have an above average talent at PF in Kieff, so I wouldn't trade Len for a PF either, UNLESS, that PF is big enough to play C.

BLUF, there are very few Cs in this league that are a legitimate 7'1" AND talented. Bargnani, Mozgov, Hawes, Gasol, Chandler, and Hibbert, and that's about it. I'm sure I'm missing one or two, but the point is, there are a lot more players at 6-10-6'11" than 7'1"-7'2", thus much easier to find talented 6'11" Centers. Len is an asset, and all I'm really suggesting is that we give him 2 full seasons to prove himself before we trade him. Minus an injury, he's only going to gain value over the next 2 years. If it turns out he's only good for 25 minutes a game due to foul trouble issues, he will still get more comfortable in an NBA offense and start producing more than his 6pt/5reb averages he's at right now (and his per36 is 11.4/9.7). He'll at least bump those up by 3-4pts and 1-2 rebs. That will still be a pretty decent asset for a team.
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Re: Game 22: Phoenix Suns (12-9) @ LA Clippers (14-5) 

Post#467 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:59 am

I wouldn't trade Len simply because I don't think other teams rate him highly. I don't think the offers we would get would surpass what we could get from Len if we keep developing him the right way.
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Re: Game 22: Phoenix Suns (12-9) @ LA Clippers (14-5) 

Post#468 » by SunsFever » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:08 pm

Here are their numbers side by side at the age of 27. http://bkref.com/tiny/tgsdL


Thats pretty amazing
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Re: Game 22: Phoenix Suns (12-9) @ LA Clippers (14-5) 

Post#469 » by Fifth Horseman » Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:49 am

SF88 wrote:
TASTIC wrote:
NavLDO wrote:
A couple of notes. 1st, partially agree with your trade proposal, but, I'd swap out Len for Plumlee, and Ennis for IT, and add a couple of picks or Bogdanovich. Drummond would be nice to have, for sure, and since they have Monroe, they could make him work in place of Drummond. I understand that Len would be the "prize piece" in that trade, but every effort should be made to NOT include him and include Plumlee--Plumlee would be good for a reserve role for them and IT would be a plug-n-play starter for them right now, vice Ennis.

2nd, you mention PFs masquerading as Cs, yet two of the three guys you mentioned over Len are just that, and the other would be more "fragile" than Len, as Olynyk is just 235lbs soaking wet. At 7', he won't be able to hold up against the larger Cs of the league.

Olynyk - 7', 234lbs
Dieng - 6'10+", 230lbs
O'Quinn - 6'10", 241lbs

Len is a legit 7'1", and while listed as 255, he's put on muscle in the off-season and he's still growing into his body. He's had a couple of minor injuries, but they were to the same finger, right? His ankles are GTG and haven't been an issue since fixed, so I don't necessarily view him as 'fragile'. Also, understanding that he's still only 21, and the others listed range between 23-25.

My point is that I would argue that Len is more a "franchise center" than any of the 3 you listed. I would take any of those three in addition to Len, but not in place of him.

I agree that there are just a handful of "franchise centers" in the league, but I disagree that Len won't be one. Again, he's only 21, and realistically, in his 1st year of play. As much as we all want him to start and be productive this season, I think that's a bit unrealistic. I absolutely agree that he needs to start, but feel we all need to manage our expectations of him until, at a minimum, the 2016 season. It's unrealistic to expect him to be a stud center right now. Yes, there are others that have played the past couple of seasons and seem to be better than he is, but again, he's only 21, and these other guys are simply more mature and their "bodies and minds" were more prepared for the rigors of the NBA.

I know it seems I'm trying to tell you and everyone else what and how to think about Len's progress and play to this point, but really, I'm just trying to point out a couple of items regarding Len and feel they are worthy of consideration when attempting to compare Len to other young centers in the league, and how I'm looking at the situation. But if I'm wrong and being overly patient or making too many excuses for Len, then I guess I'm wrong.

I'm just really saying that I wouldn't trade Len for anything right now (OK, LeBron, Durant, notwithstanding). He should not be part of any trade discussions and be "off the block" as it were, until at the earliest, the trade deadline of the 2016 season. At that time, he'll be 23, and have (hopefully) a couple of full seasons under his belt by then. Just think about it--by then, he may be on the cusp of being an All-Star Center, and we'll have the opportunity to have him in his prime for 7-8 years following that. I truly believe he'll be a key component to us building that "Big 3" by then. If not, then, at that time, decide what to do with him. As is, with no progression, he's a solid bench 5.

And BTW, just for giggles, he's a comparison of the four:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y4=2015

I was nodding til I got to the bolded part.

Len is not untouchable, nor should he be. If a player who is better is available, you make the deal.

You're telling me if UTA or DET or phoned and said 'Len for Favors/Drummond/', you'd say no? Come on...

I think because so many of us want the Suns to get a legit C, we're putting blinders on and anointing Len something he's likely not.

Again, I HOPE I'm wrong and I'll be the first to admit it if I am!

I'm with you on this.

We're a team who has missed playoffs in 5 of the past 6 seasons. Nobody is untouchable.

But we are also a team on the rise. Maybe patience is key here

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