Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer

[DirtyDez]

Zach Lavine at the pro-am in Seattle. Might be the most twitchiest athlete I've ever seen. We're talking peak-Rose explosion plus Vincanity hang time. Kid is 20.

[Twuan89]

If You Add A Prime Charles Barkley To The Current Suns Roster Would They Win The NBA Finals This Upcoming Season?

[No-Man]

Zach Lavine at the pro-am in Seattle. Might be the most twitchiest athlete I've ever seen. We're talking peak-Rose explosion plus Vincanity hang time. Kid is 20.

He is thin, and is a difficult thing to change with his frame, so far from Rose or Vince in terms of taking advantage of his athleticism to score.
He is more of a shooter than anything, if he learns how to play effectively to his strengths.
He is more likely going to end up been a JR Smith or so.

[Qwigglez]

I thought LaVine has the mold of a more athletic Kevin Martin.

[Frank Lee]

Oh yea, and hell no to Boozer. Yuck!!

I'd rather take on Chuck Hayes. I'm pretty much giving the starting nod to Mirza.

Looks like PF by committee this yr. I wouldn't play nor even have MoBro involved with this team. He sits at home till we find him a new one. Why play him ? He could blow a knee or pop an achilles and be really worth zero. Sh*t, his mouth alone could further diminish his worth. Hopefully, he'll be gone and we wont have to watch anymore of his pissy antics. I'd be happy with a pick and a TPE. Come on Philly, take him home.

[thamadkant]

Jumping is not just FORCE of legs against the ground.
Its also how quick this force is applied.

I know body builders who can leg press near a ton... they cant jump more than 20 inches. The ones that does jump 30+ inches also do a lot of running and plyometrics along with leg weight presses.


I know much smaller guys who are good sprinters and they can jump 36 inches easily.

Jumping high = Explosiveness, means power and speed, force is highly dependent on speed/velocity.

Just say quick twitch muscle. Jumping is like running, you are born with it, and can only improve so much.

Some people are indeed born with well developed twitch muscles.

But they can be improved. To what extent I'm not sure.


It's like boxing, some people just jabs with such power/force naturally. But some can develop explosive punches through training.
Jumping can be developed too, but not too late. Lots of high jumpers develop twitch muscles around early teen years. Playing sports and sprinting at that age helps.

Older, and it gets harder. I know 20 year olds who've improved 4-5 inches in verticals after a year of plyometrics. But the real athletic explosive ones are rare. Must of developed their twitch muscles way younger...

You can lose it too, through atrophy

[plonden]

Zach Lavine at the pro-am in Seattle. Might be the most twitchiest athlete I've ever seen. We're talking peak-Rose explosion plus Vincanity hang time. Kid is 20.

I know that you are only comparing athleticism between these three players. And there may be some truth to it. But in terms of NBA skills, Zach LaVine isn't in the same league. At this point in his career LaVine is a flashy dunker. That's it. Of 474 players in the league last season, LaVine had the registered the worst Wins Above Replacement player value at -5.34. The next closest player, Derrick Williams, had a value of -2.90. That's bad. In terms of Real Plus-Minus, LaVine ranked 471 out of 474 with a score of -6.87[/quote], ahead of only Anthony Bennett, Gary Harris, and Brandon Rush. Again, that's bad. In terms of skill, there's not much of a comparison between LaVine, Rose, and McGrady. For fun, here's a b-ref chart comparing the three players during their rookie seasons. A more apt analogy is probably a young Gerald Green before Green developed any real legitimate skills other than dunking.

[letsgosuns]

Tristan Thompson is supposedly refusing to sign for anything less than a max contract: http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/31/report-tristan-thompson-wont-accept-less-than-max-from-cavaliers-his-agent-thinks-raptors-will-offer-it-next-summer/

I think the qualifying offer is just under 7 million for one year. I would trade Markieff for one year of Thompson plus maybe a draft pick or two from the Cavaliers (protected picks of course). The reason why is because if Thompson wants a max contract, he will have to play out of his mind to get it. There is nothing better than having a player signed to a one year deal with the motivation to get paid. It happened with Tim Thomas in 2006. He played incredible for the Suns and basically saved the season that year. Boris Diaw also has done it multiple times where he played better in a contract year.

Taking a one year flyer on a motivated Thompson is not a long term investment and it gets rid of the problem child in Markieff. If Thompson plays amazing and turns into a star as the starting power forward for the Suns, the team can sign him to a long term deal. If it does not work out, let him walk. There is really no financial risk and it does not hurt long term cap space. If anything it helps because it also gets rid of Markieff's 8 million per year contract. It is not like anyone here thinks the Suns are going to win the championship this coming season with Markieff on the team anyway. Might as well get a defender/rebounder/dirty work type player who plays inside like Thompson and go all out with great defense.

[bwgood77]

Tristan Thompson is supposedly refusing to sign for anything less than a max contract: http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/31/report-tristan-thompson-wont-accept-less-than-max-from-cavaliers-his-agent-thinks-raptors-will-offer-it-next-summer/

I think the qualifying offer is just under 7 million for one year. I would trade Markieff for one year of Thompson plus maybe a draft pick or two from the Cavaliers (protected picks of course). The reason why is because if Thompson wants a max contract, he will have to play out of his mind to get it. There is nothing better than having a player signed to a one year deal with the motivation to get paid. It happened with Tim Thomas in 2006. He played incredible for the Suns and basically saved the season that year. Boris Diaw also has done it multiple times where he played better in a contract year.

Taking a one year flyer on a motivated Thompson is not a long term investment and it gets rid of the problem child in Markieff. If Thompson plays amazing and turns into a star as the starting power forward for the Suns, the team can sign him to a long term deal. If it does not work out, let him walk. There is really no financial risk and it does not hurt long term cap space. If anything it helps because it also gets rid of Markieff's 8 million per year contract. It is not like anyone here thinks the Suns are going to win the championship this coming season with Markieff on the team anyway. Might as well get a defender/rebounder/dirty work type player who plays inside like Thompson and go all out with great defense.

I think there is a better chance you become a die hard Markieff fan than there is that we want anything to do with Thompson.

[jcsunsfan]

Tristan Thompson is supposedly refusing to sign for anything less than a max contract: http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/31/report-tristan-thompson-wont-accept-less-than-max-from-cavaliers-his-agent-thinks-raptors-will-offer-it-next-summer/

I think the qualifying offer is just under 7 million for one year. I would trade Markieff for one year of Thompson plus maybe a draft pick or two from the Cavaliers (protected picks of course). The reason why is because if Thompson wants a max contract, he will have to play out of his mind to get it. There is nothing better than having a player signed to a one year deal with the motivation to get paid. It happened with Tim Thomas in 2006. He played incredible for the Suns and basically saved the season that year. Boris Diaw also has done it multiple times where he played better in a contract year.

Taking a one year flyer on a motivated Thompson is not a long term investment and it gets rid of the problem child in Markieff. If Thompson plays amazing and turns into a star as the starting power forward for the Suns, the team can sign him to a long term deal. If it does not work out, let him walk. There is really no financial risk and it does not hurt long term cap space. If anything it helps because it also gets rid of Markieff's 8 million per year contract. It is not like anyone here thinks the Suns are going to win the championship this coming season with Markieff on the team anyway. Might as well get a defender/rebounder/dirty work type player who plays inside like Thompson and go all out with great defense.

I think there is a better chance you become a die hard Markieff fan than there is that we want anything to do with Thompson.

This. The only thing that might make me remotely interested is what else might be included along with Thompson. Oh, I might be interested if he changes agents.

[TeamTragic]

Tristan Thompson is supposedly refusing to sign for anything less than a max contract: http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/31/report-tristan-thompson-wont-accept-less-than-max-from-cavaliers-his-agent-thinks-raptors-will-offer-it-next-summer/

I think the qualifying offer is just under 7 million for one year. I would trade Markieff for one year of Thompson plus maybe a draft pick or two from the Cavaliers (protected picks of course). The reason why is because if Thompson wants a max contract, he will have to play out of his mind to get it. There is nothing better than having a player signed to a one year deal with the motivation to get paid. It happened with Tim Thomas in 2006. He played incredible for the Suns and basically saved the season that year. Boris Diaw also has done it multiple times where he played better in a contract year.

Taking a one year flyer on a motivated Thompson is not a long term investment and it gets rid of the problem child in Markieff. If Thompson plays amazing and turns into a star as the starting power forward for the Suns, the team can sign him to a long term deal. If it does not work out, let him walk. There is really no financial risk and it does not hurt long term cap space. If anything it helps because it also gets rid of Markieff's 8 million per year contract. It is not like anyone here thinks the Suns are going to win the championship this coming season with Markieff on the team anyway. Might as well get a defender/rebounder/dirty work type player who plays inside like Thompson and go all out with great defense.

If Kieff creates issues for the team as he said he would then I would do this trade in a heartbeat. Why not give TT an opportunity to prove his worth?

[bwgood77]

Tristan Thompson is supposedly refusing to sign for anything less than a max contract: http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/31/report-tristan-thompson-wont-accept-less-than-max-from-cavaliers-his-agent-thinks-raptors-will-offer-it-next-summer/

I think the qualifying offer is just under 7 million for one year. I would trade Markieff for one year of Thompson plus maybe a draft pick or two from the Cavaliers (protected picks of course). The reason why is because if Thompson wants a max contract, he will have to play out of his mind to get it. There is nothing better than having a player signed to a one year deal with the motivation to get paid. It happened with Tim Thomas in 2006. He played incredible for the Suns and basically saved the season that year. Boris Diaw also has done it multiple times where he played better in a contract year.

Taking a one year flyer on a motivated Thompson is not a long term investment and it gets rid of the problem child in Markieff. If Thompson plays amazing and turns into a star as the starting power forward for the Suns, the team can sign him to a long term deal. If it does not work out, let him walk. There is really no financial risk and it does not hurt long term cap space. If anything it helps because it also gets rid of Markieff's 8 million per year contract. It is not like anyone here thinks the Suns are going to win the championship this coming season with Markieff on the team anyway. Might as well get a defender/rebounder/dirty work type player who plays inside like Thompson and go all out with great defense.

If Kieff creates issues for the team as he said he would then I would do this trade in a heartbeat. Why not give TT an opportunity to prove his worth?

Because he does not fit our team and needs and his agent is likely not someone we want to work with ever again, unless we HAVE to.

[Saberestar]

Tristan Thompson is supposedly refusing to sign for anything less than a max contract: http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/31/report-tristan-thompson-wont-accept-less-than-max-from-cavaliers-his-agent-thinks-raptors-will-offer-it-next-summer/

I think the qualifying offer is just under 7 million for one year. I would trade Markieff for one year of Thompson plus maybe a draft pick or two from the Cavaliers (protected picks of course). The reason why is because if Thompson wants a max contract, he will have to play out of his mind to get it. There is nothing better than having a player signed to a one year deal with the motivation to get paid. It happened with Tim Thomas in 2006. He played incredible for the Suns and basically saved the season that year. Boris Diaw also has done it multiple times where he played better in a contract year.

Taking a one year flyer on a motivated Thompson is not a long term investment and it gets rid of the problem child in Markieff. If Thompson plays amazing and turns into a star as the starting power forward for the Suns, the team can sign him to a long term deal. If it does not work out, let him walk. There is really no financial risk and it does not hurt long term cap space. If anything it helps because it also gets rid of Markieff's 8 million per year contract. It is not like anyone here thinks the Suns are going to win the championship this coming season with Markieff on the team anyway. Might as well get a defender/rebounder/dirty work type player who plays inside like Thompson and go all out with great defense.

I think this is a good idea, and one of the few few options to trade Markieff for an equal or even better player. I know that Tristan would be on a one year contract, but he will play his ass here to make him a max player next summer. He can be a double double machine for us, and we can have great intensity all game long with players like Tucker, Chandler, Len and Tristan.

If Cleveland add a future first round pick I would make this trade.

[NoKneeBledsoe]

Tristan Thompson is supposedly refusing to sign for anything less than a max contract: http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/31/report-tristan-thompson-wont-accept-less-than-max-from-cavaliers-his-agent-thinks-raptors-will-offer-it-next-summer/

I think the qualifying offer is just under 7 million for one year. I would trade Markieff for one year of Thompson plus maybe a draft pick or two from the Cavaliers (protected picks of course). The reason why is because if Thompson wants a max contract, he will have to play out of his mind to get it. There is nothing better than having a player signed to a one year deal with the motivation to get paid. It happened with Tim Thomas in 2006. He played incredible for the Suns and basically saved the season that year. Boris Diaw also has done it multiple times where he played better in a contract year.

Taking a one year flyer on a motivated Thompson is not a long term investment and it gets rid of the problem child in Markieff. If Thompson plays amazing and turns into a star as the starting power forward for the Suns, the team can sign him to a long term deal. If it does not work out, let him walk. There is really no financial risk and it does not hurt long term cap space. If anything it helps because it also gets rid of Markieff's 8 million per year contract. It is not like anyone here thinks the Suns are going to win the championship this coming season with Markieff on the team anyway. Might as well get a defender/rebounder/dirty work type player who plays inside like Thompson and go all out with great defense.

If Kieff creates issues for the team as he said he would then I would do this trade in a heartbeat. Why not give TT an opportunity to prove his worth?

Because he does not fit our team and needs and his agent is likely not someone we want to work with ever again, unless we HAVE to.

Why doesn't he fit our team? Cause he isn't a Stretch 4? I forgot that our team needs a stretch 4 to win and everyone keeps swearing on these stretch 4's. Let's go find another stretch 4

Thompson hustles and gets Offensive boards. With Chandler and Thompson we would be an amazing rebounding team and also have second chance points on offense.

I think also with the age and motivation for a max. This would be an upgrade to Markieff

[bwgood77]

Why doesn't he fit our team? Cause he isn't a Stretch 4? I forgot that our team needs a stretch 4 to win and everyone keeps swearing on these stretch 4's. Let's go find another stretch 4

Thompson hustles and gets Offensive boards. With Chandler and Thompson we would be an amazing rebounding team and also have second chance points on offense.

I think also with the age and motivation for a max. This would be an upgrade to Markieff

We don't need two offensive holes starting in our front court.

[plonden]

Why doesn't he fit our team? Cause he isn't a Stretch 4? I forgot that our team needs a stretch 4 to win and everyone keeps swearing on these stretch 4's. Let's go find another stretch 4

Thompson hustles and gets Offensive boards. With Chandler and Thompson we would be an amazing rebounding team and also have second chance points on offense.

I think also with the age and motivation for a max. This would be an upgrade to Markieff

We've already discussed the TT idea in depth. You don't need a stretch four. A team can get by with one player who is a net negative on offense. But in the modern NBA you can't put two players on the floor who are net negatives on offense. The Suns would be forced to play two of Thompson, Chandler, and Len at any given time. The spacing would be atrocious. Defenses could pack the paint. They could sag off of these guys and double our legitimate scorers. It doesn't work anymore. The Cavaliers couldn't play Mozgov and Thompson together for extended minutes in the Finals. Memphis can pull it off because both Randolph and Gasol are legitimate midrange threats and can operate at the high post and both have pretty deadly jump shots from the elbow. That does not describe any of Thompson, Chandler, and Len, despite the glowing offseason reports that Len is going to be shooting threes this season. His summer league performance does not back up that claim.

[Saberestar]

Why doesn't he fit our team? Cause he isn't a Stretch 4? I forgot that our team needs a stretch 4 to win and everyone keeps swearing on these stretch 4's. Let's go find another stretch 4

Thompson hustles and gets Offensive boards. With Chandler and Thompson we would be an amazing rebounding team and also have second chance points on offense.

I think also with the age and motivation for a max. This would be an upgrade to Markieff

We've already discussed the TT idea in depth. You don't need a stretch four. A team can get by with one player who is a net negative on offense. But in the modern NBA you can't put two players on the floor who are net negatives on offense. The Suns would be forced to play two of Thompson, Chandler, and Len at any given time. The spacing would be atrocious. Defenses could pack the paint. They could sag off of these guys and double our legitimate scorers. It doesn't work anymore. The Cavaliers couldn't play Mozgov and Thompson together for extended minutes in the Finals. Memphis can pull it off because both Randolph and Gasol are legitimate midrange threats and can operate at the high post and both have pretty deadly jump shots from the elbow. That does not describe any of Thompson, Chandler, and Len, despite the glowing offseason reports that Len is going to be shooting threes this season. His summer league performance does not back up that claim.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree with you....but we are speaking here about a good trade option to save the day with Markieff. I prefer to have a perimeter player like an starting PF for my team ( like Marion was for us or Draymond Green is right now for GSW ) but we don't have the oportunity to grab one of them. We need to trade Markieff for the best package available and I think that Tristan and a pick is a good one.

You said that TT and Mozgov couldn't play together extended minutes in the Finals. ....so yes, they went to the Finals with those two players like their starting frontcourt. They were successful a lot of times, even against Chicago, so they proved that defense and rebounding on your frontcourt players can be a great thing to have.

[plonden]

I understand what you are saying, and I agree with you....but we are speaking here about a good trade option to save the day with Markieff. I prefer to have a perimeter player like an starting PF for my team ( like Marion was for us or Draymond Green is right now for GSW ) but we don't have the oportunity to grab one of them. We need to trade Markieff for the best package available and I think that Tristan and a pick is a good one.

I think I view the value of Thompson differently. Look at his contract in context. A lot depends on what he does. If he takes the qualifying offer, he'll be an unrestricted free agent next season. In that case, we could lose TT, and by extension Markieff Morris, for nothing if he chooses to sign with another team. Otherwise, we are going to bent over a barrel by Rich Paul to sign TT to a max contract to avoid the unrestricted free agency route. Thompson is not a max player. He's not even close. He has one elite NBA skill--rebounding. He's also a solid rebounder and an all-out hustle guy. That's valuable, but not max money valuable. You've got to factor in the money. Markieff Morris is signed to an excellent contract. He's under contract for several more years. He has no leverage other than to try and disrupt team chemistry. There are better deals out there. The Suns need to be patient.

You said that TT and Mozgov couldn't play together extended minutes in the Finals. ....so yes, they went to the Finals with those two players like their starting frontcourt. They were successful a lot of times, even against Chicago, so they proved that defense and rebounding on your frontcourt players can be a great thing to have.

I agree with you to a certain extent. The Cavaliers got to the NBA Finals because they have Lebron James. They played Thompson and Mozgov together because they were forced to. The top six lineups for the Cavaliers last season all feature Kevin Love, a quintessential stretch four. Their seventh best lineup featured Mozgov and Thompson together. The Cavs still had both Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving when they beat the Celtics. The Cavs still had Kyrie Irving when they beat the Bulls. And Lebron put up 26.2 points, 11 boards, 8.8 assists, 1.7 steals, and 1.7 blocks. The Cavs lost Kyrie in the middle of the Atlanta series, but swept Atlanta anyway. Again, because Lebron put up 30.3 points, 11.0 rebounds, 9.3 assists, 1.5 steals, and 0.5 blocks. They played Thompson and Mozgov together because they had to. The lineups with Love were much, much better than when TT and TM were on the floor together. They got to the NBA Finals because of Lebron's herculean efforts. The Warriors exposed the weakness of the TT and TM lineup in the Finals. Most of the league is trying to emulate the Warriors's style. That is the future of the NBA.

[VanosGhost]

Funny how cyclical things are. I remember when Bill Laimbeer, Rick Mahorn and Dennis Rodman were the future of the NBA. If another group like that comes along and wins a chip, everyone will try to emulate that.


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[lilfishi22]

Tristan Thompson is supposedly refusing to sign for anything less than a max contract: http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/31/report-tristan-thompson-wont-accept-less-than-max-from-cavaliers-his-agent-thinks-raptors-will-offer-it-next-summer/

I think the qualifying offer is just under 7 million for one year. I would trade Markieff for one year of Thompson plus maybe a draft pick or two from the Cavaliers (protected picks of course). The reason why is because if Thompson wants a max contract, he will have to play out of his mind to get it. There is nothing better than having a player signed to a one year deal with the motivation to get paid. It happened with Tim Thomas in 2006. He played incredible for the Suns and basically saved the season that year. Boris Diaw also has done it multiple times where he played better in a contract year.

The difference is, neither Tim Thomas nor Diaw were looking anywhere in the vicinity of a max deal. TT seem to think (or has been told to think) that he's worth a max deal and he's quite simply not.

Taking a one year flyer on a motivated Thompson is not a long term investment and it gets rid of the problem child in Markieff. If Thompson plays amazing and turns into a star as the starting power forward for the Suns, the team can sign him to a long term deal. If it does not work out, let him walk. There is really no financial risk and it does not hurt long term cap space. If anything it helps because it also gets rid of Markieff's 8 million per year contract. It is not like anyone here thinks the Suns are going to win the championship this coming season with Markieff on the team anyway. Might as well get a defender/rebounder/dirty work type player who plays inside like Thompson and go all out with great defense.

I'd rather keep Markieff or trade him for a lesser player but with long term aspirations with the Suns in mind, rather than take on Tristan (now the most overrated player in the game) and have to deal with Rich Paul again. I mean this is the same Rich Paul who doesn't seem to realise the Cavs have ALREADY essentially maxed out Lebron, Irving and Love.

The financial risk here is we're giving up a player with good long term value for a 1 yr rental with little to no prospect of resigning unless we're maxing him out. And who seriously wants to max out TT here?

I know I sound like a broken record since I constantly bring up the Thomas Robinson comparison but lets revisit that for a second:

Tristan Thomspon - 6'9, 238lbs, turns 25 in March 16
2015 stats:
8.5ppg on 54.7FG%
8rpg
0.7bpg
26.8mpg over 82 games
17.2TRB%
14.5ORB%
per36 - 11.4ppg/10.8rpg/1bpg
Wants $91m/5

Thomas Robinson - 6'9, 240lbs, turns 25 in March 16
2015 stats:
5.7ppg on 48.5FG%
5.6rpg
0.4bpg
14.8mpg over 54 games
20.5TRB%
12.6ORB%
per36 - 13.9ppg/13.7rpg/0.9bpg
Signed $2m/2

Now I'm not saying Thomas Robinson is the same calibre player or he'll average a double double given minutes, because he isn't and he won't. TT's great playoff run also has to be taken into consideration (almost double double on excellent FG%). TT is a better player but does anyone really think he's worth $91m while Thomas Robinson is only worth $2m?