The Jon Jones Thread

Post #101 » by **Headliner** » Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:23 am

rashaad saying what we were saying the other day:

“I hate to see someone who I consider probably one of the greatest fighters of all time, make these mistakes,”

“Because now you’re always going to have these thoughts in your mind like ‘Jon was good, but was he always cheating? Was he cheating then? Would he cheat now?’. All these questions and it’s like how great really was he? It’s something that can make you think. He didn’t look great against OSP (Ovince Saint-Preux), was he not on something? These are all questions you have to ask.
“It’s just unfortunate because I love what he does inside the cage.”

Gregoire · Post #102 » by **Gregoire** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:07 pm

Headliner wrote:

Because look at the timeline.

In January 2015 Bones beats DC pretty handidly.
In July 2015 USDA is introduced and they are coming down hard on PED abusers.

Jones comes back clean to see how he does. Fights OSP, looks terrible, blames it on ring rust when it's actually no PEDS for the first time. Then thinks he needs them to beat Cormier and starts using again.

The only fight in Jon Jones career that he looks TERRIBLE in is his First fight after the USDA is introduced? Big coincidence.

Very conspirological theory.

Note, that Jones supposed to fight DC, not OSP, in April. Ifheused PEDs early, why he decided to not using in April?

Post #103 » by **Headliner** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:09 pm

Gregoire wrote:
Headliner wrote:

Because look at the timeline.

In January 2015 Bones beats DC pretty handidly.
In July 2015 USDA is introduced and they are coming down hard on PED abusers.

Jones comes back clean to see how he does. Fights OSP, looks terrible, blames it on ring rust when it's actually no PEDS for the first time. Then thinks he needs them to beat Cormier and starts using again.

The only fight in Jon Jones career that he looks TERRIBLE in is his First fight after the USDA is introduced? Big coincidence.

Very conspirological theory.

Note, that Jones supposed to fight DC, not OSP, in April. Ifheused PEDs early, why he decided to not using in April?

It's not really, it's pretty rational thinking since the guy popped for PEDS.

He decided not to use PEDs in April because this is the first time he fought since the USDA started cracking down on PEDS. His first fight with Cormier, there was no real strong oversight, and Jones looked great. Remember, back then if the USDA couldn't find you, you weren't tested. So guys would just hide.
Then he got injured, and during that time off, the USDA became much much stronger and the rules for Steriods changed. So Bones had to be very careful. My guess is he came back to fight DC clean, ended up fighting OSP, and he looked awful. Everyone called it ring rust, but it was really Jones without Roids. That got into his head, and he went back to the PEDS for his next fight and got caught.

It makes perfect sense.

NZB2323 · Post #104 » by **NZB2323** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:46 pm

Gregoire wrote:
REDDzone wrote:
If I had to bet my life on whether Fedor used or not, I'd say yes. But I agree its hard to convict when he never tested positive. Additionally, it was legal in orgs he's fought in. You almost wonder if its coincidence when he started fighting in the US he went from a tank with a lil belly to putting so flabby. Its a pertinent question because using steroids vs using steroids to cheat is a different question I think.

The indictment on Silva for me is that he was only tested out of competition once and he failed that test. Mannn that looks bad. Otherwise I'd almost be inclined to give the dude the benefit of the doubt.

This is pro sports the LARGE majority of fighters and athletes general.. in 2016 are ON ****.. be sure of it.. in fact only what.. 15-20 % MAX are clean in this sport would be my bet.. and is sure as hell aren't the champions and top contenders that are the clean ones.

As much as I appreciate your skepticism, I have skepticism about your skepticism. Cormier did well in the Olympics and never tested positive there, and has managed to do well dropping to 205 and not having the best physique. I think that the vast majority of UFC fans would agree that the current Middleweight champion is clean. I don't think that we can really say that all the opponents of people who have been caught using steroids are also on steroids, when there's no evidence to back up that Cormier, Mark Hunt, Bisping ect. used steroids. It just seems like victim blaming.

Gregoire · Post #105 » by **Gregoire** » Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:52 am

NZB2323 wrote:
As much as I appreciate your skepticism, I have skepticism about your skepticism. Cormier did well in the Olympics and never tested positive there, and has managed to do well dropping to 205 and not having the best physique. I think that the vast majority of UFC fans would agree that the current Middleweight champion is clean. I don't think that we can really say that all the opponents of people who have been caught using steroids are also on steroids, when there's no evidence to back up that Cormier, Mark Hunt, Bisping ect. used steroids. It just seems like victim blaming.

I'm beginning to think there may only be a handful of fighters in the entire sport that actually fight clean.
Maybe a handful if your hand only has one or two fingers. Bisping- maybe... DC - no way IMO.

Cormier was a Div 1 wrestler and wrestled internationally. By definition he juiced. No one excels at high level wrestling without being on the gear. Just because he is endomorph (looked fat) isnt proof that he is clean. If we talk about LHW, than maybe Gus is clean from top fighters. Not good cardio,not very strong. Jones,DC, Rumble,Glover - definitety are (or were on something at some stage of careers).

Gregoire · Post #106 » by **Gregoire** » Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:59 am

Headliner wrote:

It's not really, it's pretty rational thinking since the guy popped for PEDS.

He decided not to use PEDs in April because this is the first time he fought since the USDA started cracking down on PEDS. His first fight with Cormier, there was no real strong oversight, and Jones looked great. Remember, back then if the USDA couldn't find you, you weren't tested. So guys would just hide.
Then he got injured, and during that time off, the USDA became much much stronger and the rules for Steriods changed. So Bones had to be very careful. My guess is he came back to fight DC clean, ended up fighting OSP, and he looked awful. Everyone called it ring rust, but it was really Jones without Roids. That got into his head, and he went back to the PEDS for his next fight and got caught.

It makes perfect sense.

1) In my opinion if he used something - he would continue to use.For me its dont make any sense,that he was clean for one fight. Maybe he was juiced all career, maybe he started to cheat before OSP fight (to overcome ring rust), maybe he started only for ufc 200(for overcome powerlifting effect).

2) I dont think that he was looking "awful" with OSP. And with all circumstances - he looked normal. Actually, DC looked more "awful" with Andy and declined more comparing to earlier fights. And he used same excuses Jones used.

Post #107 » by **CPT** » Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:35 am

Maybe I'm naive, but I'm going to give anyone passing USADA testing the benefit of the doubt. That is not to say that they never used, but painting everyone with the same "everyone is doing it" brush is unfair, and more importantly, lets the guys who are really doing it and get caught off the hook.

They are catching a lot of guys right now with the new testing, so I have to assume the testing is good. What I also assume is that anyone who still decides to use PEDs when the testing is this good probably used them when it wasn't.

Don't know if that holds up logically, but that's what I'm going with.

Jones - been juicing the whole time, DC - pure as the driven snow.

Post #108 » by **Headliner** » Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:50 pm

Gregoire wrote:
Headliner wrote:

It's not really, it's pretty rational thinking since the guy popped for PEDS.

He decided not to use PEDs in April because this is the first time he fought since the USDA started cracking down on PEDS. His first fight with Cormier, there was no real strong oversight, and Jones looked great. Remember, back then if the USDA couldn't find you, you weren't tested. So guys would just hide.
Then he got injured, and during that time off, the USDA became much much stronger and the rules for Steriods changed. So Bones had to be very careful. My guess is he came back to fight DC clean, ended up fighting OSP, and he looked awful. Everyone called it ring rust, but it was really Jones without Roids. That got into his head, and he went back to the PEDS for his next fight and got caught.

It makes perfect sense.

1) In my opinion if he used something - he would continue to use.For me its dont make any sense,that he was clean for one fight. Maybe he was juiced all career, maybe he started to cheat before OSP fight (to overcome ring rust), maybe he started only for ufc 200(for overcome powerlifting effect).

2) I dont think that he was looking "awful" with OSP. And with all circumstances - he looked normal. Actually, DC looked more "awful" with Andy and declined more comparing to earlier fights. And he used same excuses Jones used.

1) He wasn't really being tested before he was injured. He'd hide, use blockers, etc etc. What you are saying doesn't make sense because you are basing it off the idea that he was under the same testing requirements before and after. He wasn't. The rules were relaxed. If you hid from them, you could use Steriods all you want, and he probably did. His fight with OSP, the entire Steriod issue changed, if they told you you were going to be tested, you have to be tested. So many guys have popped during that time. Jones was probably scared of popping and he tried to fight clean for that fight, and he looked terrible for it.

2) In Jon Jones standards that was terrible. If you are saying normal, as in a normal person yes. But if you are saying that was a normal bones fight, then you are wrong. That was unanimously Jones worst fight of his career, without a doubt.
DC is 37 your comparing a 37 year old to a guy in his prime. And if DC didn't look great, it was probably more because of style and age, not because of steroid issues. DC should be declining every fight we see from now on.

GoRapstheoriginal · Post #109 » by **GoRapstheoriginal** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:22 pm

http://espn.go.com/mma/story/_/id/17099953/jon-jones-tested-positive-clomiphene-letrozole-according-nevada-state-athletic-commission

Jasen777 · Post #110 » by **Jasen777** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:36 pm

GoRapstheoriginal wrote:http://espn.go.com/mma/story/_/id/17099953/jon-jones-tested-positive-clomiphene-letrozole-according-nevada-state-athletic-commission

"They found something in one of my samples," Jones said on July 8. "I don't even know how to pronounce it. I've been taking the same supplements the majority of my career. I've been so outspoken about being against any type of performance enhancers. To this day, I'm extremely against performance enhancers.

"The whole thing sucks. Being labeled as someone who would cheat hurts more than anything else I've ever been through in my career."

Not buying it.

NZB2323 · Post #111 » by **NZB2323** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:50 pm

I didn't think that DC looked that bad, he just had a boring gameplan. He took Anderson down and played it safe. He looked like how GSP looked in a lot of his fights. Did DC really look any better against Frank Mir when he made the entire fight wall 'n stall?

NZB2323 · Post #112 » by **NZB2323** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:10 pm

Jasen777 wrote:
GoRapstheoriginal wrote:http://espn.go.com/mma/story/_/id/17099953/jon-jones-tested-positive-clomiphene-letrozole-according-nevada-state-athletic-commission

"They found something in one of my samples," Jones said on July 8. "I don't even know how to pronounce it. I've been taking the same supplements the majority of my career. I've been so outspoken about being against any type of performance enhancers. To this day, I'm extremely against performance enhancers.

"The whole thing sucks. Being labeled as someone who would cheat hurts more than anything else I've ever been through in my career."

Not buying it.

He was really outspoken against DUIs. He was really outspoken against drugs. He was really outspoken against being cocky.

REDDzone · Post #113 » by **REDDzone** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:21 pm

Lol yea this is the dude who said he'd snitch on pot smokers at the same time he was lighting up in hotel rooms with Joe Rogan. Its not possible to be a bigger hypocrite.

How long have you been sober, Jon?
Maybe around a couple of months now.

Ask Court McGee the same question:
10 years, 3 months, 2 weeks, 4 days.

haha

Post #114 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:01 am

I'm a fan of Jones, but I don't know how that OSP fight could be used as proof that he was coming off juice. It wasn't his best performance, but strength and stamina wise, he looked stronger and as fresh as he ever has. OSP is probably the biggest, strongest guy he's had to fight, and he was lifting him and walking him around the ring at will. If anything it looked like he was on something new to increase strength....

He didn't look as crisp or aggressive as usual, but part of that was OSP just playing to not get KO'd.

Gregoire · Post #115 » by **Gregoire** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:52 am

CPT wrote:Maybe I'm naive, but I'm going to give anyone passing USADA testing the benefit of the doubt. That is not to say that they never used, but painting everyone with the same "everyone is doing it" brush is unfair, and more importantly, lets the guys who are really doing it and get caught off the hook.

They are catching a lot of guys right now with the new testing, so I have to assume the testing is good. What I also assume is that anyone who still decides to use PEDs when the testing is this good probably used them when it wasn't.

Don't know if that holds up logically, but that's what I'm going with.

Jones - been juicing the whole time, DC - pure as the driven snow.

DC.. a pudgy, not that tall man

kinda old 37 years old now.. and ruling the LHW division officially as of now for years right ? (since incoming ban 2 or 4 years on Jones).
Keep in mind that he was in the Olympics and there it's harder to cheat (NOT IMPOSSIBLE) so him coming over to MMA where the testing was and maybe still is being standard.. this man has the info and the experience to beat any testing.. a smart experienced guy that can knows was up.. he sure doesn't look like someone on PEDs with that big body fat on him but again I won't be surprised of anything I'm split on him but open minded all the way.
PS: Remember those low T/E ratio tests.. that isn't good.. that means a) roids b) head trauma c) got him in a really low low time and means he was killing himself in practice hardcore... or a combination of all of the above.

Gregoire · Post #116 » by **Gregoire** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:54 am

NZB2323 wrote:I didn't think that DC looked that bad, he just had a boring gameplan. He took Anderson down and played it safe. He looked like how GSP looked in a lot of his fights. Did DC really look any better against Frank Mir when he made the entire fight wall 'n stall?

I think if we talk about treir standarts: DC definetly looked worse vs Anderson than Jones vs OSP.

Gregoire · Post #117 » by **Gregoire** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:57 am

Headliner wrote:

1) He wasn't really being tested before he was injured. He'd hide, use blockers, etc etc. What you are saying doesn't make sense because you are basing it off the idea that he was under the same testing requirements before and after. He wasn't. The rules were relaxed. If you hid from them, you could use Steriods all you want, and he probably did. His fight with OSP, the entire Steriod issue changed, if they told you you were going to be tested, you have to be tested. So many guys have popped during that time. Jones was probably scared of popping and he tried to fight clean for that fight, and he looked terrible for it.

2) In Jon Jones standards that was terrible. If you are saying normal, as in a normal person yes. But if you are saying that was a normal bones fight, then you are wrong. That was unanimously Jones worst fight of his career, without a doubt.
DC is 37 your comparing a 37 year old to a guy in his prime. And if DC didn't look great, it was probably more because of style and age, not because of steroid issues. DC should be declining every fight we see from now on.

I say it was normal Bones fight after 1,5 year rust and changing lifestyle (+ powerlifting). DC looked way more terrible and vulnerable vs Anderson by his standarts than Jones vs OSP.

Post #118 » by **CPT** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:03 am

Gregoire wrote:
NZB2323 wrote:I didn't think that DC looked that bad, he just had a boring gameplan. He took Anderson down and played it safe. He looked like how GSP looked in a lot of his fights. Did DC really look any better against Frank Mir when he made the entire fight wall 'n stall?

I think if we talk about treir standarts: DC definetly looked worse vs Anderson than Jones vs OSP.

He really didn't, unless I'm not really remembering both fights (they were kind of forgettable).

I feel like DC did pretty much everything he wanted against Silva. It was just kind of boring.

Jones looked relatively worse against OSP. Especially if we're talking about their standards.

And let's not forget the opponents. He may be a little (or a lot) washed up, but he's still Anderson Silva. Relative to elite fighters like Jones, DC, and Silva, OSP is not in that league. He may be ranked 4 in the world to Silva's 10, or whatever the case may be, but I think I'd pick Silva to win straight up if they were to fight tomorrow.

(I feel like I've written this before, so sorry if I'm repeating myself).

REDDzone · Post #119 » by **REDDzone** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:43 pm

Its crazy that we all actually got to witness pre-USADA Bones vs TRT Vitor...and none of us even realized it at the time.

REDDzone · Post #120 » by **REDDzone** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:47 pm

Also, didn't see this mentioned anywhere but Lesnar got popped for the exact same stuff Bones did. That's when you know you are taking the good stuff, when you are standing in line behind that science experiment at the steroid store.

I'm sure Malki will say he got it from his protein powder though. :lol: