The MMA Associations/Unions Thread (Update 11-30, Association FORMED)

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The MMA Associations/Unions Thread (Update 11-30, Association FORMED) 

Post#1 » by REDDzone » Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:34 pm

I was debating if this was threadworthy, but now that I'm halfway through Ariel's interview with this Jeff Borris fellow, it seems to me like they mean business. I'm not finished yet, but there are some interesting nuggets. He's arguing that UFC fighters are employees and the UFC's labeling them as contractors is just self-serving. He says the biggest surprise he has found in reaching out to fighters is just how scared the fighters are of the ufc. Says the UFC must have been bullying them. Says he got the idea because he recently read a bout agreement (between Nate/Conor) and was shocked basically at how much power the UFC has (my interpretation), how much was in there that isn't enforceable, etc.

This all comes on the heels of guys like Hunt/Benson talking about unions as recently as last week. Listen to the interview, it'll be on mmafighting's homepage for sure, can't link there from work. Also, apparently two different associations have formed at the same time? Finally, here is a post that jasen made in the nonthreadworthy thread that contains an article and an excerpt:

Jasen777 wrote:With support of major sports names, new group forms to get UFC fighters unionized

The Professional Fighters Association (PFA) has been established with a goal to get collective bargaining for UFC athletes, it was announced Thursday in a press release. The PFA is hoping to get recognition of a fighters union through the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA), the release stated. And the group has the support of many of the major sports unions, like the MLPBA and NFLPA.

"PFA will not only be a union of fighters, but it will be governed solely by fighters," the release said. "It is the fighters who will control their own futures."

The group is being led by longtime baseball agent Jeff Borris, labor attorney Lucas Middlebrook and economist Andrew Zimbalist. Borris once represented the likes of Barry Bonds, Jose Canseco and Rickey Henderson. Middlebrook, best known in the MMA space as Nick Diaz's lawyer, is counsel for the Major League Soccer referees union, NBA referees union and the unions for Southwest Airlines employees. Zimbalist is a highly regarded and oft-published sports economist.
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Re: The MMA Associations/Unions Thread 

Post#2 » by NZB2323 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:56 pm

It seems to me that the two groups will combine and bigger names like Hunt and Benson will join in, and eventually every fighter will be in the union. It's really hard to say they're contractors when they have uniforms they have to wear and their employer has to know where they are at all times. It will probably take 3-5 years though.

The UFC sold, right? I know the Fertatta brothers don't like it when their employees unionize, and they may have saw this coming and decided to sell. I wonder how anti-union the new owner(s)? will be. Didn't the entity that purchased the UFC ask to remain anonymous? I also wonder if this happens if the UFC will use it to try and sell the UFC to blue collar workers, "Come out and support your fellow union workers."
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Re: The MMA Associations/Unions Thread 

Post#3 » by REDDzone » Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:14 pm

Leslie Smith was the one fighter who showed up to the Union presser.

Also, I guess the founder dude was front and center this weekend, calling on fighters, etc.

I haven't been following this super closely, but the UFC must be laughing their *sses off if its true that the two organizations (the union and the association) are at eachother's throats. Just lolworthy.
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Re: The MMA Associations/Unions Thread 

Post#4 » by REDDzone » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:25 pm

This is what the hoopla is about today. GSP/Dillashaw/Cain/Kennedy/Cerrone/Bjorn/GSP's hotshot lawyer Quinn, among others.
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Re: The MMA Associations/Unions Thread 

Post#5 » by Jasen777 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:39 pm

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Re: The MMA Associations/Unions Thread 

Post#6 » by REDDzone » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:44 pm

Almost all of the twitter talk is backlash against Bjorn as opposed to supporting the association. Gotta think using him may have been a mistake, regardless of how genuine (or not) his intentions, he is a very polarizing figure. Look for people to pull out bellator reported fight salaries, etc. to discredit this whole effort.
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Re: The MMA Associations/Unions Thread 

Post#7 » by REDDzone » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:54 pm

Shannon Knapp, others saying they will not support this as long as Bjorn is involved. A media member I follow on twitter (can't recall who now) said he is getting texts from fighters saying they will NOT support any effort with Bjorn involved. That said, Bjorn seems to be super informed as he speaks about unions vs. associations, etc.

Also, hilarious tweet by Luke Thomas that I can't embed while at work, but it was something to the effect of "Wouldn't it be hilarious if the MMMAA replaced Bjorn Rebney with Scott Coker in a couple of years?" lolzers.
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Re: The MMA Associations/Unions Thread (Update 11-30, Association FORMED) 

Post#8 » by Jasen777 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:14 pm

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Re: The MMA Associations/Unions Thread (Update 11-30, Association FORMED) 

Post#9 » by Cammo101 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:15 pm

I'm all for this in theory, and they have a few impressive names out front, but my gut says this thing will totally fall flat. They seem less like they want to work with the UFC to improve things and more like they want to pick a fight. That is a bad approach to take here. That along with Rebney's involvement casts serious doubt for me that this will work.

MMA needs some sort of labor union for fighters, but that group needs to be willing to take baby steps to get where they are going, as opposed to trying to threaten labor stoppages and asking for reparations from day one.
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Re: The MMA Associations/Unions Thread (Update 11-30, Association FORMED) 

Post#10 » by Cammo101 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:24 pm

The UFC can release those 4 fighters tomorrow and ensure no one ever does something like this again. It would be ballsy, but it also wouldn't totally surprise me. Those 4 guys took a big risk doing this, that is to be commended regardless of how it plays out.
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Re: The MMA Associations/Unions Thread (Update 11-30, Association FORMED) 

Post#11 » by Jasen777 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:34 pm

Cammo101 wrote:The UFC can release those 4 fighters tomorrow and ensure no one ever does something like this again. It would be ballsy, but it also wouldn't totally surprise me. Those 4 guys took a big risk doing this, that is to be commended regardless of how it plays out.


Then Rebney could make a promotion with these guys. Brilliant move by Rebney.
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Re: The MMA Associations/Unions Thread (Update 11-30, Association FORMED) 

Post#12 » by Cammo101 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:45 pm

Jasen777 wrote:
Cammo101 wrote:The UFC can release those 4 fighters tomorrow and ensure no one ever does something like this again. It would be ballsy, but it also wouldn't totally surprise me. Those 4 guys took a big risk doing this, that is to be commended regardless of how it plays out.


Then Rebney could make a promotion with these guys. Brilliant move by Rebney.


MTV2 is clamoring at the thought.
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Re: The MMA Associations/Unions Thread (Update 11-30, Association FORMED) 

Post#13 » by NZB2323 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:08 pm

Cammo101 wrote:The UFC can release those 4 fighters tomorrow and ensure no one ever does something like this again. It would be ballsy, but it also wouldn't totally surprise me. Those 4 guys took a big risk doing this, that is to be commended regardless of how it plays out.


I don't agree with that. If the UFC releases all those guys, it sounds like they would face a lawsuit, and Bellator could pick them all up. Bellator could put on a card with GSP, Cowboy, Cain, Fedor, TJ Dillishaw, Benson Henderson, Michael Chandler, Tim Kennedy, Chael Sonnen, ect. and have it air the same time as a UFC PPV, and crush the PPV. They could also make the claim, "We support the fighters, support the fighters by watching Bellator and not the UFC!"

I do agree that those guys took a big risk, and they should be commended. I'd commend GSP also.
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Re: The MMA Associations/Unions Thread (Update 11-30, Association FORMED) 

Post#14 » by Cammo101 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:23 pm

NZB2323 wrote:
Cammo101 wrote:The UFC can release those 4 fighters tomorrow and ensure no one ever does something like this again. It would be ballsy, but it also wouldn't totally surprise me. Those 4 guys took a big risk doing this, that is to be commended regardless of how it plays out.


I don't agree with that. If the UFC releases all those guys, it sounds like they would face a lawsuit, and Bellator could pick them all up. Bellator could put on a card with GSP, Cowboy, Cain, Fedor, TJ Dillishaw, Benson Henderson, Michael Chandler, Tim Kennedy, Chael Sonnen, ect. and have it air the same time as a UFC PPV, and crush the PPV. They could also make the claim, "We support the fighters, support the fighters by watching Bellator and not the UFC!"

I do agree that those guys took a big risk, and they should be commended. I'd commend GSP also.


I've pretty much come around to the thought process that Bellator could stack cards until the end of time and they still won't compete, but the UFC name is the real star. We have seen it time and time again where prime guys leave the UFC and go somewhere else as the supposed game changer, and it never seems to take. The UFC smartly has always put the brand ahead of single fighters. I have no doubt that while firing those 4 guys would send them to a happy Bellator, I don't think it would change the balance of power at all.
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Re: The MMA Associations/Unions Thread (Update 11-30, Association FORMED) 

Post#15 » by CPT » Thu Dec 1, 2016 1:17 am

NZB2323 wrote:
Cammo101 wrote:The UFC can release those 4 fighters tomorrow and ensure no one ever does something like this again. It would be ballsy, but it also wouldn't totally surprise me. Those 4 guys took a big risk doing this, that is to be commended regardless of how it plays out.


I don't agree with that. If the UFC releases all those guys, it sounds like they would face a lawsuit, and Bellator could pick them all up. Bellator could put on a card with GSP, Cowboy, Cain, Fedor, TJ Dillishaw, Benson Henderson, Michael Chandler, Tim Kennedy, Chael Sonnen, ect. and have it air the same time as a UFC PPV, and crush the PPV. They could also make the claim, "We support the fighters, support the fighters by watching Bellator and not the UFC!"

I do agree that those guys took a big risk, and they should be commended. I'd commend GSP also.


UFC counters with Conor vs. Diaz III, wins the night, and leaves Bellator in shambles with no drawing fights for the following 3-4 months. TBH, take off GSP's comeback, and I think UFC beats a Bellator supercard with any decent card.

I don't think that's a realistic scenario, but I agree with Cammo's overall point - this is a great start, but these guys will need more to be bigger than the UFC brand.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
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Re: The MMA Associations/Unions Thread (Update 11-30, Association FORMED) 

Post#16 » by REDDzone » Thu Dec 1, 2016 3:42 am

Can the ufc really just cut them though? Especially the guys who have fights. I know they have an open-to-interpretation out clause where they can cut a guy for breaking their ambiguous code of conduct or whatever, but cutting all these guys at the same time would just be way too transparent. These aren't prelim fighters without enough capital to hire a lawyer.
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Re: The MMA Associations/Unions Thread (Update 11-30, Association FORMED) 

Post#17 » by REDDzone » Thu Dec 1, 2016 3:44 am

Even bellator probably wouldn't be dumb enough to stack all those guys on one card, btw. Just GSP as main and Rory as co-main in Canada would bring a HUGE gate and a ton of North American viewership. Follow up the next month with 3-4 of Chael/Kennedy/Tito/Cerrone/Benson/Cain/Dillashaw/Josh Thomson/Koscheck/Daley/Davis/Rampage and then the next month with 3-4 of the same, and so on. This is all a fun hypothetical BS argument btw, but it ain't happening regardless.
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Re: The MMA Associations/Unions Thread (Update 11-30, Association FORMED) 

Post#18 » by Bernman » Thu Dec 1, 2016 4:13 am

Bjorn was your typical shady MMA promoter. In a way that makes it ironic he'd hold this position, but at the same time he knows the business from the dark side, is a lawyer, and I think the bad rep was way over-inflated because he ran a promotion genuinely trying to build up to compete with the #1 eventually. Many just wanted him to release guys like Eddie and Brookins whenever they wanted out, but don't see how that was fair to the investment they made, and it would have been bad for the sport as a whole if he acted as a de facto feeder. There would have been no competition.

A lot of people felt sympathy for Eddie, but UFC made the material terms of the contract matchable, while at the same time Eddie was compensated well, and their actions of just not letting him go made that possible. The contract he got from Bellator didn't have the upside of him fighting in the UFC, as we saw he ended up enjoying (hindsight is 20/20), but at the same time Bellator offered him more assurances. He knew which network he was fighting on and he'd have maintained sponsorships. Whereas the UFC took his sponsorships soon after and he could have fought on FS1, FS2, Fight Pass, Fox, or atop a ppv. Eddie made a bad analogy about how Bellator didn't compare because of the network, but it was just looking at the upside, by the same logic no contract really could be matched, and Bellator could have used their Viacom connections to get him on CBS if they really needed to. I think that's imminent right now. Plus, the UFC had a bunch of deceptive language like "they intend to give him an immediate title shot" and to put him on "this card or that one", which in practice they couldn't have necessarily delivered on nor would have tried. That's where a lot of the vitriol toward Bjorn came from, and IMO it was much ado about nothing.

Another gripe I see that holds little water is the payment of prelim fighters. It was apples and oranges between Bellator and UFC. Bellator had little quality control on their prelims. It was like 2 decent major org fights and then just local guys with bad records to draw some fans early. Then they get $500 or whatever, and people think that's exploitative, when that's probably better than they'd do on the local show, and they weren't some guy on the cusp like the UFC prelim fighters, or on tv.

One example of a shady thing I remember Bjorn doing was lying that Prindle couldn't make weight so Big Monster Santos wouldn't lose his opportunity and Prindle couldn't win the tourney on the scale. Then, he arguably could have released a few fighters who wanted out sooner. But there should be some punishment for contract breach, it just depends on how long. Of course there's the dog incident before, which some ridiculously think Bjorn executed. He's a lawyer. He knows about plausible deniability. Hire a guy to do a dirty job and then don't talk to him about what that will be. That's shady, but people I think sensationalize and speculate his involvement.

Perception is reality though. Maybe then he will be dropped, or they can convince other fighters he's a necessary evil.
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Re: The MMA Associations/Unions Thread (Update 11-30, Association FORMED) 

Post#19 » by cowboyronnie » Thu Dec 1, 2016 5:38 am

Cammo101 wrote:The UFC can release those 4 fighters tomorrow and ensure no one ever does something like this again. It would be ballsy, but it also wouldn't totally surprise me. Those 4 guys took a big risk doing this, that is to be commended regardless of how it plays out.


There are legal protections against retaliation like that, no? Laws to protect workers who form a union?
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Re: The MMA Associations/Unions Thread (Update 11-30, Association FORMED) 

Post#20 » by cowboyronnie » Thu Dec 1, 2016 5:39 am

Rumor about Bjorn:
If the story posted is true, this is the gist. Rebney and another guy Ersoff worked with Sugar Ray Leonard. At some point Leonard got in a bad situation with a mistress and he was desperate to get it taken care of since he was in the process of rehabilitating his image. Rebnet and Ersoff hired a well known entertainment lawyer to take care of it. (Think Ray Donovan.) Leonard, Rebney, and the law firm wanted to take extreme measures and Ersoff disagreed. This started a dispute that eventually lead to Ersoff suing Rebney, Leonard, and the firm. The day after the suit was filed, Ersoff's dog (well his wifes dog) was found with a spike driven through it's head. He's sure that Rebney and the firm did this. Later it would be confirmed by Rebney that their lawyer had used connections with the FBI to set up a raid of his house to scare him and additionally set up a phone conversation to catch Ersoff incriminating himself, although he never did.

So it seems like it's more like Rebney was associated with a dispute that lead to a spike being driven through a dogs head. Not that anyone has accused Rebney of actually doing the deed.
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