Lucha Underground Thread

[skbucks1985]

He doesn't realize that Joey Ryan or LU pissing on kayfabe is basically the only way to make money outside of WWE, who shot kayfabe, lit it on fire, buried it, and currently digs it up every Monday night to piss all over it. Jim should voice his concerns towards the industry leader who made it impossible to earn a living with a straight, traditional wrestling product and not the people who saw their dreams thwarted and found a creative work-around. You have to seek out LU, it's a minuscule part of a billion dollar industry that's had to diversify to stay alive.

Maybe the reason I'm disagreeing with you guys is that I have a different meaning of what kayfabe is. Vince McMahon Sr. did an interview in the 1960's with, I think, the Washington Post where he flatly said what we do is entertainment. Wrestling results were never in the sports section of newspapers or discussed on newscasts. I don't think wrestling has ever been considered "real" in the way basketball, football, baseball, etc. are. So to me maintaining kayfabe means to not do anything to break the illusion that what you see is real, but I think pretty much everyone above a certain age was aware that it was an illusion.

[Spens1]

What a debut episode, so much hype. That opening match, the vignettes (especially the Vignettes), Dario Cueto in general. So Good

Jim can say what he wants and in a way he's right, it isn't really a wrestling promotion as such, but damn it is so much better than anything wrestling wise (even the weekly NXT shows as of late which have been pretty weak), the man has to realise Kayfabe is essentially dead, it died when the internet and dirtsheets told us everything, there is only so much you can no sell and be effective, especially when superstars have twitters, instagrams, snapchats etc and are basically required to have a social media presence to interact with fans. Its just a reality of modern day wrestling. In some cases it might not make sense (like Bray Wyatt) but even then if used right it could really enhance a character also (like Wyatt should just post creepy statuses on his fb page or something)

[Stanford]

I don't think wrestling has ever been considered "real" in the way basketball, football, baseball, etc. are.

I'm not so sure that's true, but it makes no difference. Let's say it is true. I'm not claiming that Jim is upset because LU exposes the business. That's not what I mean when I say he's out of touch. My problem is that he has no clue how the modern fan perceives wrestling. He argues that you lose the viewer when you present a wrestling show in a cinematic way; that it can no longer even be considered pro wrestling if there's heavy scripting involved. But no one who has taken in any mainstream product over the last 20 years watches wrestling as if it were a real sport. It's viewed entirely as theater. We discuss it like we're all at a book club meeting. We talk about character motivations and story arc. We complain when Bray Wyatt's actions aren't consistent with his character. When Tom Brady throws a football, we don't ask ourselves if the pass was consistent with his character's motivations. We just yell at the TV. Jim isn't trying to tell us what he thinks makes a good or bad wrestling show, he's trying to define what pro wrestling fundamentally is. The problem is that the definition of pro wrestling has evolved as the fanbase has changed how they watch it. Lucha Underground has simply taken the theatrical aspects to an extreme level.

Cornette's opinion on Lucha Underground is the equivalent of your father screaming about how rap isn't real music. Also, Jim hates rap music too.

For the record, I do think that Jim is a troll and completely full of ****, in addition to being out of touch. I seriously doubt he would make the same criticisms of the thousands of obviously contrived vignettes that have aired on TV over the last 40 years. Kamala? Razor Ramon? Do these look real to anyone? Lucha Underground just takes the vignette concept and makes it good.

[skbucks1985]

I don't think wrestling has ever been considered "real" in the way basketball, football, baseball, etc. are.

I'm not so sure that's true, but it makes no difference. Let's say it is true. I'm not claiming that Jim is upset because LU exposes the business. That's not what I mean when I say he's out of touch. My problem is that he has no clue how the modern fan perceives wrestling. He argues that you lose the viewer when you present a wrestling show in a cinematic way; that it can no longer even be considered pro wrestling if there's heavy scripting involved. But no one who has taken in any mainstream product over the last 20 years watches wrestling as if it were a real sport. It's viewed entirely as theater. We discuss it like we're all at a book club meeting. We talk about character motivations and story arc. We complain when Bray Wyatt's actions aren't consistent with his character. When Tom Brady throws a football, we don't ask ourselves if the pass was consistent with his character's motivations. We just yell at the TV. Jim isn't trying to tell us what he thinks makes a good or bad wrestling show, he's trying to define what pro wrestling fundamentally is. The problem is that the definition of pro wrestling has evolved as the fanbase has changed how they watch it. Lucha Underground has simply taken the theatrical aspects to an extreme level.

Cornette's opinion on Lucha Underground is the equivalent of your father screaming about how rap isn't real music. Also, Jim hates rap music too.

For the record, I do think that Jim is a troll and completely full of ****, in addition to being out of touch. I seriously doubt he would make the same criticisms of the thousands of obviously contrived vignettes that have aired on TV over the last 40 years. Kamala? Razor Ramon? Do these look real to anyone? Lucha Underground just takes the vignette concept and makes it good.

I think we're probably going to keep going in circles as this is largely a conversation about language and how liberally you define certain terms. Having said that, I don't think this is about how the modern fan perceives wrestling. Of the main American products the one that is probably most compatible with Cornette's vision of what wrestling should be, is NXT. And fans talk about characters and story arcs in NXT just as they do with Lucha Underground.

And to the point that I think is mostly a conversation about how liberally you define certain terms, I don't think someone saying rap music isn't real music is evidence that they're out of touch. I'd say its evidence that they have a very narrow-minded and stupid definition of what constitutes real music.

[Fattz]

What is Jim C going to say? He has run so may venues and most have if not all have failed. This is a good sign that he does not like it. Maybe it will work. The only bad part of this product is the show can't travel which limits the amount of money it can make. Plus the boys are not going to keep up the pace long term because of injury. As a fan it wonderful but how is it going to turn a profit long term?

[Marcus]

I honestly do love reading some of you guys' post on wrestling. Super well thought out intelligent convo about a subject your passionate about.

F*ckin love this board man!!!

[skbucks1985]

What is Jim C going to say? He has run so may venues and most have if not all have failed. This is a good sign that he does not like it. Maybe it will work. The only bad part of this product is the show can't travel which limits the amount of money it can make. Plus the boys are not going to keep up the pace long term because of injury. As a fan it wonderful but how is it going to turn a profit long term?

Even if its successful above anyone's wildest dreams (and the ratings for the season premiere were great considering the network they're on), I don't think it'll ever be a 52-week a year program. My guess is it would end up being a 26-39 week a year show. And they have a decently deep roster plus just an hour of programming that most guys are on once every 3 weeks or so with minimal travel. So, I don't think being able to keep up the pace should be an issue.

As far as turning a profit, Lucha Underground is not a wrestling promotion, its a tv show. If they have good ratings, they'll be able to charge a higher ad rate and they'll continue to stay on if those two things are true.

[Stanford]

Of the main American products the one that is probably most compatible with Cornette's vision of what wrestling should be, is NXT. And fans talk about characters and story arcs in NXT just as they do with Lucha Underground.

He writes:

There's nobody on the face on the planet that could watch this **** and believe that there is any legitimacy to it whatsoever. It shouldn't be called pro wrestling at all.

Jim's declares that Lucha Underground shouldn't be considered pro wrestling because the viewer cannot make themselves believe it's legitimate. His issue with the product is entirely based on how the fan perceives it. That's precisely the argument he's making here.

I guess I have enough reverence for his knowledge and experience in the industry to take him at his word when he talks about the viewer believing (not really believing; rather, watching as if it's a real sport) wrestling to be legitimate contest. I don't know what it's like to be a wrestling fan in the 70s, so I have to make an assumption that what he says must have been true for the era he grew up in. Perhaps that's where I'm going wrong. Since he's not here to clarify, it's difficult to discern what he actually means. I just have what he wrote in that post to work with.

[skbucks1985]

Of the main American products the one that is probably most compatible with Cornette's vision of what wrestling should be, is NXT. And fans talk about characters and story arcs in NXT just as they do with Lucha Underground.

He writes:

There's nobody on the face on the planet that could watch this **** and believe that there is any legitimacy to it whatsoever. It shouldn't be called pro wrestling at all.

Jim's declares that Lucha Underground shouldn't be considered pro wrestling because the viewer cannot make themselves believe it's legitimate. His issue with the product is entirely based on how the fan perceives it. That's precisely the argument he's making here.

I guess I have enough reverence for his knowledge and experience in the industry to take him at his word when he talks about the viewer believing (not really believing; rather, watching as if it's a real sport) wrestling to be legitimate contest. I don't know what it's like to be a wrestling fan in the 70s, so I have to make an assumption that what he says must have been true for the era he grew up in. Perhaps that's where I'm going wrong. Since he's not here to clarify, it's difficult to discern what he actually means. I just have what he wrote in that post to work with.

I also have no first-hand knowledge of what it was like to be a wrestling fan in the 70's and prior, but based on what I've read and heard from guys that worked in the industry at the time is that the one commonality amongst all of the territories is that they went to painstaking lengths to maintain the illusion for the viewer that what was happening was real. Basically, 'we know you know this is not real, but we're not going to do or say anything inside the ring or outside it to confirm that belief.' And Cornette doesn't care about maintaining that illusion when it comes to outside the ring machinations considering how many shoot interviews and podcasts he's done and continues to do. But I think he believes that maintaining realism should still be the primary concern when it comes to the actual programs themselves and so a program where they literally kill off characters is so far outside his realm of thinking that he thinks its not wrestling.

[Spens1]

Cornette just rants for the sake of ranting

this is the same guy that didn't rate El Generico, Kevin Steen or the Young Bucks whilst at ROH and basically got fired there for pissing off everyone.

He sometimes has valid points (less and less nowadays) but has been exposed as a racist (he did go on an islamaphobia rant) and other wrestlers have stated he is racist backstage. Also a pretty poor judge of good wrestlers and his ideas are outdated by about 20-30 years

[Fattz]

The pace is not the night to night grind but the high spots are to high --> "unbelievable" like Jim said. Jim also knows when a house pops one must bring it down to pop it again. ie opening match two 300 pounders 30FT above the ring slamming their face into cinder blocks as the finish. Then 2nd match sets themself on fire --> this really happened. The 40 foot bumps from the rafters to the ring it is all to much making it unbelievable. Is the next step is to kill someone. You are right it is a TV show not wrestling just like Jim said. But the MARK in me loves it

Even if its successful above anyone's wildest dreams (and the ratings for the season premiere were great considering the network they're on), I don't think it'll ever be a 52-week a year program. My guess is it would end up being a 26-39 week a year show. And they have a decently deep roster plus just an hour of programming that most guys are on once every 3 weeks or so with minimal travel. So, I don't think being able to keep up the pace should be an issue.

As far as turning a profit, Lucha Underground is not a wrestling promotion, its a tv show. If they have good ratings, they'll be able to charge a higher ad rate and they'll continue to stay on if those two things are true.[/quote]

[skbucks1985]

The difference in numbers between the two is staggering though. Ambrose and Reigns had injury-free 2015's and were pushed the entire year, my guess is they wrestled at least 200 matches and possibly 250+ matches. If Lucha Underground is 39 weeks a year, my guess is a person will do around 10 matches a year/season. And if you hear any wrestler talk about it, most injuries aren't from the crazy spots its because of the consistent wear and tear there bodies take, a not insignificant part of which comes from the constant travel which is a minimal issue for Lucha Underground.

[Fattz]

The difference in numbers between the two is staggering though. Ambrose and Reigns had injury-free 2015's and were pushed the entire year, my guess is they wrestled at least 200 matches and possibly 250+ matches. If Lucha Underground is 39 weeks a year, my guess is a person will do around 10 matches a year/season. And if you hear any wrestler talk about it, most injuries aren't from the crazy spots its because of the consistent wear and tear there bodies take, a not insignificant part of which comes from the constant travel which is a minimal issue for Lucha Underground.

Okay, I disagree. One gets injured from doing something out of the norm --> can't heal because of the schedule.

[Ruzious]

He doesn't realize that Joey Ryan or LU pissing on kayfabe is basically the only way to make money outside of WWE, who shot kayfabe, lit it on fire, buried it, and currently digs it up every Monday night to piss all over it. Jim should voice his concerns towards the industry leader who made it impossible to earn a living with a straight, traditional wrestling product and not the people who saw their dreams thwarted and found a creative work-around. You have to seek out LU, it's a minuscule part of a billion dollar industry that's had to diversify to stay alive.

Maybe the reason I'm disagreeing with you guys is that I have a different meaning of what kayfabe is. Vince McMahon Sr. did an interview in the 1960's with, I think, the Washington Post where he flatly said what we do is entertainment. Wrestling results were never in the sports section of newspapers or discussed on newscasts. I don't think wrestling has ever been considered "real" in the way basketball, football, baseball, etc. are. So to me maintaining kayfabe means to not do anything to break the illusion that what you see is real, but I think pretty much everyone above a certain age was aware that it was an illusion.

Yeah, I think that's about when they started to be a little bit open about it. There was a DC sports anchor named Frank Herzog who I grew up listening to. I remember about 1980ish, he talked about pro wrestling and how he used to love pro wrestling and considered Bruno Samartino to be a friend who he occasionally interviewed on his sports show. Frank said he one day he asked Bruno if wrestling was real. Bruno reluctantly told him it was scripted. Frank admitted he was devastated to hear that and refused to follow pro wrestling anymore. So some folks - adults - used to actually believe this stuff was 100% on the level. I think that was about the time that pro wrestling organizations stopped getting licensing from wrestling commissions and basically admitted to government licensing agencies that they were entertainment. It saved them from licensing hassles.

[Ruzious]

The difference in numbers between the two is staggering though. Ambrose and Reigns had injury-free 2015's and were pushed the entire year, my guess is they wrestled at least 200 matches and possibly 250+ matches. If Lucha Underground is 39 weeks a year, my guess is a person will do around 10 matches a year/season. And if you hear any wrestler talk about it, most injuries aren't from the crazy spots its because of the consistent wear and tear there bodies take, a not insignificant part of which comes from the constant travel which is a minimal issue for Lucha Underground.

Keep in mind that many of the wrestlers are borrowed from AAA and probably other organizations, so this isn't all of the matches that hey participate in.

[skbucks1985]

The difference in numbers between the two is staggering though. Ambrose and Reigns had injury-free 2015's and were pushed the entire year, my guess is they wrestled at least 200 matches and possibly 250+ matches. If Lucha Underground is 39 weeks a year, my guess is a person will do around 10 matches a year/season. And if you hear any wrestler talk about it, most injuries aren't from the crazy spots its because of the consistent wear and tear there bodies take, a not insignificant part of which comes from the constant travel which is a minimal issue for Lucha Underground.

Okay, I disagree. One gets injured from doing something out of the norm --> can't heal because of the schedule.

If you look at how guys tend to get injured, its generally through pretty basic spots. Foley didn't get injured after the HIAC spot, Edge and Jeff Hardy didn't get injured after the spear off the ladder, Kalisto or the Uso weren't injured after the Salida Del Sol through the ladder, Angelico didn't get injured after the dive from the balcony. And this makes sense, because the craziest stuff you do is the stuff you're most prepared for and most careful.

[skbucks1985]

The difference in numbers between the two is staggering though. Ambrose and Reigns had injury-free 2015's and were pushed the entire year, my guess is they wrestled at least 200 matches and possibly 250+ matches. If Lucha Underground is 39 weeks a year, my guess is a person will do around 10 matches a year/season. And if you hear any wrestler talk about it, most injuries aren't from the crazy spots its because of the consistent wear and tear there bodies take, a not insignificant part of which comes from the constant travel which is a minimal issue for Lucha Underground.

Keep in mind that many of the wrestlers are borrowed from AAA and probably other organizations, so this isn't all of the matches that hey participate in.

Yeah of course and some of these guys work a lot more and some of these guys work a lot less, and the guys that work a lot more are at great risk of injury. But even the guys who work a lot more, its a tiny amount compared to what WWE does. Look at a guy like Rey who at the end of his WWE run was always injured and now he works regularly on the Indy scene and has been completely healthy.

[skbucks1985]

He doesn't realize that Joey Ryan or LU pissing on kayfabe is basically the only way to make money outside of WWE, who shot kayfabe, lit it on fire, buried it, and currently digs it up every Monday night to piss all over it. Jim should voice his concerns towards the industry leader who made it impossible to earn a living with a straight, traditional wrestling product and not the people who saw their dreams thwarted and found a creative work-around. You have to seek out LU, it's a minuscule part of a billion dollar industry that's had to diversify to stay alive.

Maybe the reason I'm disagreeing with you guys is that I have a different meaning of what kayfabe is. Vince McMahon Sr. did an interview in the 1960's with, I think, the Washington Post where he flatly said what we do is entertainment. Wrestling results were never in the sports section of newspapers or discussed on newscasts. I don't think wrestling has ever been considered "real" in the way basketball, football, baseball, etc. are. So to me maintaining kayfabe means to not do anything to break the illusion that what you see is real, but I think pretty much everyone above a certain age was aware that it was an illusion.

Yeah, I think that's about when they started to be a little bit open about it. There was a DC sports anchor named Frank Herzog who I grew up listening to. I remember about 1980ish, he talked about pro wrestling and how he used to love pro wrestling and considered Bruno Samartino to be a friend who he occasionally interviewed on his sports show. Frank said he one day he asked Bruno if wrestling was real. Bruno reluctantly told him it was scripted. Frank admitted he was devastated to hear that and refused to follow pro wrestling anymore. So some folks - adults - used to actually believe this stuff was 100% on the level. I think that was about the time that pro wrestling organizations stopped getting licensing from wrestling commissions and basically admitted to government licensing agencies that they were entertainment. It saved them from licensing hassles.

A lot of people believe that's where the term sports entertainment originated from. In the territory days if they did get licenses it was because of the influence the promoter had in that area and/or the corruption of the commission. But Vince wanted to go national and didn't have the influence in all of these areas and didn't want to have to pay off every single commission. This was his end-around on that.

But, like I said, wrestling was never covered in newspapers or on the local sportscast. Maybe there were people, above that certain age, who did believe it was completely real. But no one outside of the wrestlers themselves, bookers, promoters, and fans ever treated it like it was real.

[Spens1]

2nd episode wasn't as good as the first but still very enjoyable, like how they played up PJ Black. I am sure Striker nearly called him Justin Gabriel also Vampiro completely no sold him also.

Mundo isn't the MVP of Lucha Underground for nothing, the guy can do no wrong right now. Killshot also deserves to do something, the match was pretty good with Mundo using those classic heel tactics to win

Main event, they really played up the dissension of Puma and Pentagon Jr. Disciples basically murdered them for most of the match, why this was 3 on 2 i am not sure but anyway. Wasn't that interested in this in all honesty, Disciples of death really don't interest me in any way other than the fact that they're Catrina and Mil's underlings.

onto the vignettes. MARTY THE MOTH, where on earth did this come from, he went from slightly creepy fun guy to crazy psychotic stalker who kidnaps his victims

Kobra Moon thing was random, what that was i am not sure but should be interest (especially since its Cheerleader Melissa playing her so you know she'll be good)

That ending one, as soon as he started talking i knew it was Rey, and to get the appearance i marked out, Mysterio once upon a time used to be my favorite wrestler (around 06-09ish), i can safely say i haven't marked out for him like that since he returned around 2011, was fantastic.

[WRau1]

Pretty excited, I recently gave up cable for streaming services and Sling TV carries Lucha Underground.