WWE Fastlane 2016

[Ruzious]

Even if that were the case it was still stupid because Jericho doesn't benefit from it because people's reaction were either confusion or nothing because the two points of view is that the move is either too established to having it be kicked out of this early in his stint or because he' so early in his stint the move doesn't really mean anything. If Jericho doesn't understand that and wanted to kick out of the move to satiate his ego, I don't believe it at all because it goes against everything he's said and done, and it didn't benefit him at all.

Why do you keep implying that I said it was Jericho's idea to kick out of it when I've said just the opposite? Everything I've said about Jericho has been positive.

[skbucks1985]

Because I think whether he wanted to kick out of the move or it was done because Styles or an agent or someone else decided they wanted to have Jericho kick out of it, making a distinction between those reasons is I think largely a distinction without a difference. And I don't think Jericho sees kicking out of the move as some sort of badge of honor and would see the harm in it.

[Mike Hunt]

Things that didn't work/make sense:

-Having the US title match on the pre-show while having a dud of a Social Outcasts match and a talking segment (New Day) on the main show
-Having "the titans" go over the Wyatts (most egregious error of the night)
-Charlotte no-selling in a similar way to how "giants" usually debut (seriously, really watch her), leading to a strange finish
-Jericho kicking out of the Styles clash (lessened by the fact that it "softened him up" for the calf crusher)
-Nothing happening between R-Truth and Golddust, really
-The New Day pulling the League of Nations out of nowhere to be the target of their venom. Had they transitioned to faces, outright, it might have happened but none of that legwork had happened. This was just an over heel faction calling out a not over heel faction for seemingly no reason. Calling out the Dudleys could have led to a turn and at least had some history to support it.
-Nothing of note happening in the main event. I.e., I needed a surprise win for Ambrose (or even Brock, to a lesser degree) or some change in the relationship between the brothers. Instead, things are no different today than they were Sunday.
-Roman Reigns no selling chair shots that were destroying a "beast"

Things that did work/made sense:

-Mauro at least doing the pre-show announcing. It's a case of baby steps but I'm glad he was involved with the PPV in some capacity.
-booking the US title as a best out of 3 (the "it was a fluke" build up almost demanded it)
-Del Rio sacrificing a fall to inflict damage (I was thinking 2 seconds before it happened that it would be a smart strategy for a heel to use.
-The build up of trust between Becky and Sasha during their match. It was subtly done and on point. The match as a whole was good.
-Owens and Ziggler putting on another great match with very subtle changes to the way it was laid out in order to keep it fresh.
-Ryback's new look/move set (high knees and missile dropkick). Even though I hated that they went over, I appreciated that the shine was put on the youngest of the "titans". Ryback's showing more athleticism than you'd expect from such a big guy.
-Charlotte's heelish behaviour (she's second to only Kevin Owens on the main roster, in terms of being a jerk)
-Brie's botches during the Women's match... I know it sounds weird but botches during big moments/high spots really expose wrestling as fake and can take you out of the moment. But Brie (and Charlotte)'s botches occurred during mat wrestling, while Brie was looking for holds/submissions and it almost served to make the match feel more real. Like an MMA fighter trying to get a kimura, failing to do so and trying to transition into something else. I thought it actually played well.
-The action, if not the result, in the main event was good, for the relatively short time it lasted.

[skbucks1985]

I assume the reason Kalisto-ADR was on the pre-show was because it was not a short match, I think the match went somewhere between 15-18 minutes. If they'd been on the actual show I don't think it would've gotten anywhere near that amount of time and a few other matches would've been shorter because of it

[Ruzious]

Because I think whether he wanted to kick out of the move or it was done because Styles or an agent or someone else decided they wanted to have Jericho kick out of it, making a distinction between those reasons is I think largely a distinction without a difference. And I don't think Jericho sees kicking out of the move as some sort of badge of honor and would see the harm in it.

And... that doesn't answer my question. This has gotten ridiculous - especially considering my first post was an attempt to agree with you. End of discussion on my part.

[Dr Positivity]

The Styles Clash isn't even that cool looking for a move that seems sketchy wrestler safety wise and "hopefully little kids don't try this" wise... not sure it's worth keeping it, when they can go with calf crusher as finisher and forearm from top rope as his Lionsault/Superman punch type of move

[improper]

The story they're telling with Reigns is pretty similar to the Bryan story, but its a good story. Its been logical and while I think there have been points where they missed opportunities with Reigns, its largely been well done. The problem is Reigns other than that two day stretch where he beat the hell out of HHH and then won the title hasn't been over commensurate to the push he's getting. And while he was over in that two day stretch everything he did those two nights and the story they told leading into it was very evergreen. It could've been done as well or better by several other guys and it didn't portend any future success.

The issue is that that story worked with Daniel Bryan for a reason. It worked because there was a real sense that Daniel Bryan was being kept down by the powers that be behind the scenes, and thus the story mimicked the perceived reality. That's the same reason that the story is bombing so horribly with Roman Reigns. Fans know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Vince McMahon hand picked Roman Reigns to be his new John Cena, and so telling a story where he's this downtrodden good guy fighting against the forces of evil trying to keep him down feels totally artificial and forced.

See, Vince doesn't seem to understand that the internet has changed the game. We find out things now that we never could have found out, at least not with any sort of reliability, before. As such, we're not going to buy into an underdog story where the guy is obviously not an underdog like we might have fifteen years ago. You can't try to sell Roman Reigns like that when all the fans watching know it's not true. That's why Roman Reigns is failing to get over.

The quality of the story here is irrelevant because we know the story is a crock of sh*t.

They really just need to bite the bullet and turn Reigns heel at Wrestlemania. He's going to get booed regardless. Might as well make it the intended result. Or just have Triple H retain and put someone else over instead a month or two later. Triple H retaining would honestly be the most shocking result imaginable, which would make it a great swerve.

[skbucks1985]

The story they're telling with Reigns is pretty similar to the Bryan story, but its a good story. Its been logical and while I think there have been points where they missed opportunities with Reigns, its largely been well done. The problem is Reigns other than that two day stretch where he beat the hell out of HHH and then won the title hasn't been over commensurate to the push he's getting. And while he was over in that two day stretch everything he did those two nights and the story they told leading into it was very evergreen. It could've been done as well or better by several other guys and it didn't portend any future success.

The issue is that that story worked with Daniel Bryan for a reason. It worked because there was a real sense that Daniel Bryan was being kept down by the powers that be behind the scenes, and thus the story mimicked the perceived reality. That's the same reason that the story is bombing so horribly with Roman Reigns. Fans know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Vince McMahon hand picked Roman Reigns to be his new John Cena, and so telling a story where he's this downtrodden good guy fighting against the forces of evil trying to keep him down feels totally artificial and forced.

See, Vince doesn't seem to understand that the internet has changed the game. We find out things now that we never could have found out, at least not with any sort of reliability, before. As such, we're not going to buy into an underdog story where the guy is obviously not an underdog like we might have fifteen years ago. You can't try to sell Roman Reigns like that when all the fans watching know it's not true. That's why Roman Reigns is failing to get over.

The quality of the story here is irrelevant because we know the story is a crock of sh*t.

They really just need to bite the bullet and turn Reigns heel at Wrestlemania. He's going to get booed regardless. Might as well make it the intended result. Or just have Triple H retain and put someone else over instead a month or two later. Triple H retaining would honestly be the most shocking result imaginable, which would make it a great swerve.

I largely disagree with this. Like I said, the story with Reigns has been pretty evergreen and pretty much anyone could've been placed into it. And if it had been Owens or Ambrose I think it would've largely worked because they have the ability to talk and remain compelling when feuding wit Sheamus. They have the ability to talk back-and-forth with HHH and Stephanie instead of either not saying anything or having a segment where they do 95% of the talking.

I don't think this is about the internet or the story feeling too artificial or anything like that. I think the failure of this story is that in too many ways, Roman Reigns is just not good enough to successfully carry this out.

[improper]

I largely disagree with this. Like I said, the story with Reigns has been pretty evergreen and pretty much anyone could've been placed into it. And if it had been Owens or Ambrose I think it would've largely worked because they have the ability to talk and remain compelling when feuding wit Sheamus. They have the ability to talk back-and-forth with HHH and Stephanie instead of either not saying anything or having a segment where they do 95% of the talking.

I don't think this is about the internet or the story feeling too artificial or anything like that. I think the failure of this story is that in too many ways, Roman Reigns is just not good enough to successfully carry this out.

I would argue that the story would work better with Owens or Ambrose because, unlike Reigns, they actually are underdogs. There's not a sense like there is with Reigns that they have been earmarked by Vince to be the next big thing and will be pushed at all costs. Both of them, actually, have arguably suffered due to Vince's determination to make Reigns the next Cena. Ambrose was relegated to sidekick duty and Owens has found himself stuck in mid-card purgatory.

[Dunthreevy]

The Styles Clash isn't even that cool looking for a move that seems sketchy wrestler safety wise and "hopefully little kids don't try this" wise... not sure it's worth keeping it, when they can go with calf crusher as finisher and forearm from top rope as his Lionsault/Superman punch type of move

Personally, I think the springboard forearm smash is one of the coolest looking moves around. AJ gets so much height on it and makes the forearm look like it actually hurts. I'd be completely fine with that being his finisher even.

[Dr Positivity]

Sheamus was the perfect guy for Reigns to get over against cause the smart fans hate Sheamus even more. I guess they could have made Reigns win the title from Sheamus at WM, but in the long run the same problem as now is there. Corporate Reigns with Vince and HHH behind him is the best place for him

[skbucks1985]

I largely disagree with this. Like I said, the story with Reigns has been pretty evergreen and pretty much anyone could've been placed into it. And if it had been Owens or Ambrose I think it would've largely worked because they have the ability to talk and remain compelling when feuding wit Sheamus. They have the ability to talk back-and-forth with HHH and Stephanie instead of either not saying anything or having a segment where they do 95% of the talking.

I don't think this is about the internet or the story feeling too artificial or anything like that. I think the failure of this story is that in too many ways, Roman Reigns is just not good enough to successfully carry this out.

I would argue that the story would work better with Owens or Ambrose because, unlike Reigns, they actually are underdogs. There's not a sense like there is with Reigns that they have been earmarked by Vince to be the next big thing and will be pushed at all costs. Both of them, actually, have arguably suffered due to Vince's determination to make Reigns the next Cena. Ambrose was relegated to sidekick duty and Owens has found himself stuck in mid-card purgatory.

I think the problem isn't that he's been earmarked by Vince per se, as much as it is that segment of the audience feels that earmarking has been unwarranted.

[skbucks1985]

Sheamus was the perfect guy for Reigns to get over against cause the smart fans hate Sheamus even more. I guess they could have made Reigns win the title from Sheamus at WM, but in the long run the same problem as now is there. Corporate Reigns with Vince and HHH behind him is the best place for him

Or, as what happened, people didn't care and Reigns wasn't any better off at the end of it.

[improper]

Sheamus was the perfect guy for Reigns to get over against cause the smart fans hate Sheamus even more. I guess they could have made Reigns win the title from Sheamus at WM, but in the long run the same problem as now is there. Corporate Reigns with Vince and HHH behind him is the best place for him

I don't think it's that smart fans hate him, just that he's kind of boring, his time is over, and there are other guys we'd rather see get pushed into the title picture now. There are much more dynamic heels who are also better in the ring like Owens and Wyatt. Hell, I'd rather see Barrett get another push to the main event than see them go back to Sheamus.