Anthem Protests (OT)

[Norm2953]

I've been away, traveling overseas but I saw today Victor Oladipo quoted as saying anthem protests
will happen in the NBA. In some cities like SA with a heavy military veteran presence and coach who
is a USAF graduate and coach such protests would be very unwelcome.

I'm wondering if we will see any protests with this roster and how it would be perceived. I would think
for example Oladipo might have problems in OKC.

[PDXKnight]

Honestly? I think the media stir about this has been way overblown. That being said I personally don't mind Americans exercising their freedom of choice even if it might not be the same choice I would make.

[DaVoiceMaster]

People have freedom of choice. I just think it's a really poor choice.

[The Sebastian Express]

I think there is a chance we see them if it's still happening at the start of October. If they do, I hope they're supported.

[PDXKnight]

I think there is a chance we see them if it's still happening at the start of October. If they do, I hope they're supported.

More than anything I don't want the league to oppose their decision while at the same time not isolate the players and fans who choose not to partake. This is their choice and the nba should be accomadative to this but the league has to be very careful about keeping those who choose not to partake from feeling isolated in the process as this is a very important issue to many Americans.

[ebott]

I really hope there's tons of them. Maybe it's my liberal white guilt talking, but the senseless killing of minorities be the police really bumbs me out. Maybe if a bunch of millionaires that earn their money by bouncing a ball don't stand up during the national anthem it'll affect some change.

[Village Idiot]

I really hope there's tons of them. Maybe it's my liberal white guilt talking, but the senseless killing of minorities be the police really bumbs me out. Maybe if a bunch of millionaires that earn their money by bouncing a ball don't stand up during the national anthem it'll affect some change.

Police having a low threshold for shooting young minorities is merely a symptom of a lot of underlying problems. The environment and culture of hopelessness, of the which local police in many municipalities are part of, is not going to be fixed easily. It isn't even necessarilty a racist problem, as many of the police doing the shooting are minorities themselves. Police in the US are asked to be social workers in lieu of the US having any functional and coherent social safety net.

So what can be done to solve the actual problem?

- expanded and mandatory drug treatment in stead of incarceration. A redcution in the demand of drugs will lead to a reduction in crime. Everything from petty crime, stealing to support a habit, to violent gang crime will be reduced.

- eliminating local police jurisidctions with local funding. Here in Norway we only have one police force serving the entire country which has a similar population to Oregon. That way resources can be allocated to where they are needed most. A professional organization with management further away from city hall will be harder to bribe throughout.

- better and longer training of police officers

- require officers to be in shape, really good shape. If you can't run somebody down the only way you can apprehend them is to shoot them

- get rid of the culture of police officers, with a background from the military, calling us civilians. We can not have an us and them culture and expect proactive community policing

[Joshumitsu]

Not a fan of it. But whatever. It's not that big of a deal that people should get all upset over it and the media should try to stir things.

Honestly, both 'sides' have done a lot of damage to hurt the issue at hand.

[PDX MM]

While I agree that change need to happen I don't see these protests having any kind of affect. Actually IMO it hurts more than helps promote such change. Patriotism is a dangerous thing to mess with, I just have a hard time seeing any positive coming from all of this.

[DaVoiceMaster]

Man, I've been typing in this thread for probably the past half hour or more, but I keep deleting my rants. I'm the ignorant white guy in the forum. I believe in racial equality, just as I believe in gender equality. Like Village Idiot said, there are a whole lot of issues to look at. How do we affect change? I don't believe sitting or kneeling during the National Anthem affects change. It's done nothing so far and we've been talking about it for a month. We're talking about the sitting and kneeling, but not so much about what they are protesting. These athletes have a voice that most of America does not have. Stop sitting and kneeling and start talking. They can affect change through their words and actions, but it's gonna take more than just sitting and kneeling. Get with the community leaders and start talking about how to turn things around in that community. Don't just sit on your butt and say you are protesting police brutality and do nothing else. Protesting during the National Anthem does NOTHING!!! Actually get involved in the solution and bring something to the table. During the ESPY's, a group of NBA Athletes gave a speech. Have they done anything since then? Everyone can make a speech, but that is not enough. People need to stop blaming everyone else for their problems and start looking at themselves. Don't just say you want to affect change, but then do nothing more than that.

I should probably use the delete button again, but I'm just going to move on.

[superBlazerFan]

every one should protest propaganda

[PDX MM]

Have they done anything since then? Everyone can make a speech, but that is not enough. People need to stop blaming everyone else for their problems and start looking at themselves. Don't just say you want to affect change, but then do nothing more than that.

I agree with this 100% and to me it almost seems like they want someone else to put forth the effort to get the ball rolling. The only ones that I have heard that have done more than just protest were the Seahawks but we will see if they follow through with the plan to meet with area leaders and police.

[The Sebastian Express]

1. Colin is talking before and after games. He has put his own money, quite a bit of it, into the matter. Don't blame players for not talking just because it isn't broadcast or you don't go looking for the words written/spoken.

2. They are affecting change. You're talking about it right now because of them. You're aware there is an issue because people like Colin and other black men in positions with voices refuse to let you and other people pretend to be ignorant to its existing. However, they cannot force you or any others to actually change. Everyone else must be willing and open to understanding it. It's unfair and disingenuous to put every single responsibility on marginalized persons. It is simply not doable and will completely drain a person of all energy and time to not only fight the oppression they are under but to demand they be the ones to fully educate their oppressors.

3. Instead of telling black men to not protest a certain way, in particular after the country demands 'peaceful protests (which they were before but yet called violent)' only to critique them for this, why don't you challenge other white people, of which you and I both are, and people in positions of power who are white to listen to the voices of People of Color unfairly persecuted in this country? People of Color who are trying to bring change, point out discrimination and put the discussion on the table and at the forefront of the public mind?

4. People of Color have been meeting or trying to meet with community leaders and police officers etc for decades. This is not something new. But if the other party to which you're trying to reach out to, educate and engage with doesn't reciprocate and doesn't care, why are you blaming People of Color?

Please, rethink the words you wrote and some others wrote. You're asking a marginalized group of people to do every. single. step. of. the. process. While being killed and persecuted. How extremely unfair and exhausting. Instead of challenging People of Color, regardless of public position, to do even more, challenge and demand better of fellow white people to open up and be willing to listen to what is being said. Change doesn't fail to happen because the marginalized party didn't do enough, it doesn't happen because the majority of the party in power refuses to listen.

Edit:

As an add-on, the notion that Black people and Men of Color must do more to approach and engage with police when you have police unions supporting Donald Trump, actual and proud racist who welcomes the support of actual white supremacists, is ridiculous. Perhaps challenge cops not to openly support man who has no problem accepting praise from a former KKK leader.

[Wizenheimer]

well, after the release of the video on the Tulsa fatal shooting, it's certain we'll see more anthem protests, maybe a lot more

I think the protests are both understandable and justified

[DaVoiceMaster]

I did not use color in my previous post. I simply referred to athletes. Megan Rapinoe did not stand for the National Anthem the other day during the US Women's Soccer game. She is white. Perhaps if people would stop talking about color, that would be a step in the right direction. As for the National Anthem... I will never protest that.

I choose to stand for the National Anthem to show support for the men and women of our armed forces fighting a war overseas. I stand for those who are still overseas; I stand for those who are land side; I stand for those who have come home home alive ... many are injured; and I stand to recognize those who died and the sacrifice their loved ones made.

[The Sebastian Express]

It's easy to say stop talking about color when you're not a person of color. We don't experience their lives and aren't the victims of systemic racism simply based on how we look, a physical trait in no way can People of Color change. Megan Rapinoe is doing it specifically to protest police violence against People of Color and has said she cannot stand silently by.

People of Color serve in our armed forces too, yet they are still victims of racism, profiling and general heinous deeds to dehumanize them. Racists do not care if People of Color serve our nation, so patriotism is a weak excuse.

Again, it's easy to say stop talking about color. We don't have to live it. Instead of erasing skin color of marginalized people, we should take off the blinders, acknowledge it exists, embrace other cultures and recognize the hardships and prejudice People of Color endure in a nation which claims to be a melting pot. To do otherwise, to ignore color and our differences is to wave away the experience of People of Color. It is used, for the most part, by white people like us to try to make ourselves feel comfortable so we do not have to think about or try to understand the intricacies of being of color in a world in which the majority of true power has been given to and kept within white hands for a large portion of recent world history.

[PDX MM]

Maybe I am wrong here but I get the feeling you are just assuming I am white which would be wrong. I know first hand what it is like to be judged solely based on the color of my skin. I have been pulled over quite a bit for just being in the "wrong" neighborhood. I have been called every derogatory slang racist word in the book. I know what it is like to have my own child come home crying because the other kids wouldn't play with her because she is different. I know exactly what Kap and the others are trying to do I just don't agree with how they are going about it. However I have also been told recently that my opinion doesn't count because while I am not white I am also not black. Maybe that should be one of the first things to change, racism is not just white people hating on blacks.

[Joshumitsu]

Perhaps if people would stop talking about color, that would be a step in the right direction. As for the National Anthem... I will never protest that.

Well, the argument goes that even if people stopped talking about it, it will still get perceived. You really think everyone is going to look at an Arab American or a Chinese-American person as an American? Typically, many will perceive them as foreign and not being able to speak English despite perhaps having been born in the US. Thus, they'll still experience discrimination on a daily basis that white people, who are the 'norm', would rarely experience.

Of course, there's the flip side to that too where all everyone sees is race, race, race/color, color, color in every situation which can be fallacious.

Anyway, I agree that there probably is a better way of going about things than protesting the flag. What Kap does is just prodding the crowd. If he really cared, he would do what Cousins did and explore both sides before donating to two different groups to try to get a fair debate going. MJ did the same thing and I believe Barkley mentioned similar things (only to get chastised by the white liberal radio hosts). It's only that the media doesn't cover this or try to explore it because it doesn't generate ratings nor add to the mindless shouting of both sides.

This only makes people angrier and furthers the divide as it creates more echo chambers for people to confirm their biases than actually try to find a common ground.

[Epicurus]

Let's see I pay to watch a ball game, but voila I am also expected to participate in a civic ceremony. I didn't come for that, only for the game. Why have civic ceremonies at sports events? During WWI owners of the teams in the World Series wanted to show they and the players were patriotic, even though far from Harm's Way. Stop for awhile between wars, but pick up again during WWII. This time not just for special games, but for all games. Civic ceremonies with the sports events proved to be good PR for the leagues and teams. Now may be not as much, as the racial majority on most the sports teams have folks not very pleased with the historical and present treatment of that (those) racial groups by certain authority organizations in the nation state.

Maybe time to decouple sports and civic ceremony.

[Vega]

It's admirable inasmuch as they're taking a stand for a cause they believe in. Which makes it particularly saddening that the cause doesn't appear to be based in reality and is instead a distraction from legitimate racial issues that desperately need to be addressed.

For instance there appears to be a strong correlation between violent crimes committed by racial group and officer involved shootings resulting in death; with a slight negative bias towards white Americans(43% of violent crimes/ 47% of police homicides) and black Americans(23% of violent crimes / 26% of police homicides) and an enormous positive bias(12%/4%) towards the 'Other' demographic(comprising all non Hispanic/White/Black Americans).

I can't account for the extreme positive bias towards Asian/Indian/Pacific Islander/etc demographics, other than that they may not be policed as rigorously or are racially profiled as less threatening, there however doesn't appear to be a significant negative bias against African Americans relative to violent crimes committed.

Why are the violent crimes committed numbers significant? It's the most indicative statistic for police interactions with a group in high stress situations. You have to use some type of interaction rate, otherwise statistics can become very misleading. For instance those over 70 are far more likely to be killed due to medical malpractice than their population numbers would indicate. In a vacuum one might then conclude that doctors hate the elderly. However, we know that those over 70 have far more interactions with doctors resulting in more opportunities for things to go wrong.

For a more in depth perspective on this issue, I'd suggest reading Roland Harper's recent paper:
http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399

What issues should the athletes be kneeling for? Unequal prosecutions and sentencing:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/nyregion/09race.html?_r=0

Keeping young black men from unnecessarily going to prison(essentially universities for violence and crime) would have a significant impact on reducing the violent crime rate within the black community thereby positively affecting this issue. Unfairly maligning the police and creating a divide between black Americans and law enforcement however, is simply counter productive.