Isaiah Thomas to Suns On Four Year, $27M S&T with Kings

[ICMTM]

Nope.

Read the article.

[bleeds_purple]

Y'all should be glad, your defense will improve so much.

Isn't IT arguably the worst defender in the entire NBA?

Not even close.

IT is the type of player that takes breaks on defense throughout the game due to a lot of energy spent on offense.

And no, he is not overrated offensively.

And I'm saying this as a non-IT fan. I don't entirely drink the "IT koolaid" but to say he is overrated offensively is a joke. Dude is very, very good on scoring the ball. A good portion of his offense is creating out of his ass.

I don't like him as a starter (IF there isn't a suitable player next to him) but he is an elite 6th man in this league, that's for sure.

He's a playground type player. Great moves and lot of "OooOo" and "Ahhh" plays but he can't play great for an organized team game which revolves around ball movement.

I love where Isaiah landed.

I actually see him fitting perfectly into your system. He does exactly what the Suns want their guards to be doing.

[Revived]

I hope it works out for us man. He has to be good if some many of yall like him.

I'm excited to see how Bhullar plays for you guys. Hope he makes the team develops slowly into a solid NBA rotation player.

[blind prophet]

http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2014/7/13/5896453/passes-per-possesion-time-or-where-did-the-kings-ball-go-to-die

You can see yourself how Isaiah compares to the folks in these tables as well.

I must admit... this surprised the hell out of me. Yes, it seemed at times that Isaiah could dominate the ball a bit but I had no idea how he compared to the rest of the league.

Again, this is ONLY a measurement of ball movement and not a player's overall ability or value, but perhaps this demonstrates one part of what the Kings front office might be looking at when they outwardly say they want the team to move the ball more and then make certain player moves.

I find it HILARIOUS we as kings fans murdered Tyreke Evans for being ball dominant while Isaiah Thomas is the biggest ballhog in the association. This is why I am not a fan of IT. I never have been.

Fantastic stats and review of IT with the ball, and the differences with Collison.

Great link

[pillwenney]

Nope.

Read the article.

I had already read the article and it implies that he is a ball-stopper that doesn't fit into what the team wants. I don't disagree with that, and it's fine.

But the rankings are subjective in who is chosen for comparison (that list of like 15 random PGs) and don't take into account the context of the Kings last year. Things like 1) like the general offense looking disorganized and suffering from many old classic Kings problems, 2) The severe lacking of secondary ballhandlers, and 3) the fact that Isaiah was statistically effective with the ball in his hands (good assist/TO, excellent scorer by all measures).

I don't have a problem with the main drive of what the article is saying. But to just look at that stat and say "Isaiah is the biggest ballhog in the association" is totally ridiculous and shows that a clear bias against him is clouding your argument.

[bleeds_purple]

Nope.

Read the article.

I had already read the article and it implies that he is a ball-stopper that doesn't fit into what the team wants. I don't disagree with that, and it's fine.

But the rankings are subjective in who is chosen for comparison (that list of like 15 random PGs) and don't take into account the context of the Kings last year. Things like 1) like the general offense looking disorganized and suffering from many old classic Kings problems, 2) The severe lacking of secondary ballhandlers, and 3) the fact that Isaiah was statistically effective with the ball in his hands (good assist/TO, excellent scorer by all measures).

I don't have a problem with the main drive of what the article is saying. But to just look at that stat and say "Isaiah is the biggest ballhog in the association" is totally ridiculous and shows that a clear bias against him is clouding your argument.

Absolutely. There was a good portion of the season where Isaiah was completely carrying us. He was playing 48 minutes (or damn near) a game and he would pound the ball almost every possession - not because he's a ball=hog - but because that was our only "offense" at the time.

[OGSactownballer]

Nope.

Read the article.

I had already read the article and it implies that he is a ball-stopper that doesn't fit into what the team wants. I don't disagree with that, and it's fine.

But the rankings are subjective in who is chosen for comparison (that list of like 15 random PGs) and don't take into account the context of the Kings last year. Things like 1) like the general offense looking disorganized and suffering from many old classic Kings problems, 2) The severe lacking of secondary ballhandlers, and 3) the fact that Isaiah was statistically effective with the ball in his hands (good assist/TO, excellent scorer by all measures).

I don't have a problem with the main drive of what the article is saying. But to just look at that stat and say "Isaiah is the biggest ballhog in the association" is totally ridiculous and shows that a clear bias against him is clouding your argument.

I don't have a bias at all. I am sending my so. To his bball damp because I appreciate the drive and work that it took him to even make it in the league - let alone have the success he has.

But that stat line has given me a defined context to understand what my old bball players eye was seeing. The fit was wrong because he is the wrong type of scorer to have with our interior dominant #1 and #2 scorers.

[KF10]

I felt Isaiah was the biggest culprit in the "my turn, your turn" mentality between the big-3. Now, Isaiah is gone and Collison is on board, you can't help but think the offense will be a lot more smoother and more ball movement will be seen this year.

[ICMTM]

Nope.

Read the article.

I had already read the article and it implies that he is a ball-stopper that doesn't fit into what the team wants. I don't disagree with that, and it's fine.

But the rankings are subjective in who is chosen for comparison (that list of like 15 random PGs) and don't take into account the context of the Kings last year. Things like 1) like the general offense looking disorganized and suffering from many old classic Kings problems, 2) The severe lacking of secondary ballhandlers, and 3) the fact that Isaiah was statistically effective with the ball in his hands (good assist/TO, excellent scorer by all measures).

I don't have a problem with the main drive of what the article is saying. But to just look at that stat and say "Isaiah is the biggest ballhog in the association" is totally ridiculous and shows that a clear bias against him is clouding your argument.

So in other words there is a PG that would rank lower than Isaiah? Kobe for crying out loud shares the ball more! There's nothing to agree or disagree with. The number is pretty relevant. Everyone's love for the Pizza Guy is clouded by the fact he doesn't share the last slice. He is Stephon Marbury 2.0.

You guys are aware this is a Sactown Royalty article? They love IT and have been pissed the Kings did not match (See Twitter). This is a fan post, but they did not need to post it.

[pillwenney]

Nope.

Read the article.

I had already read the article and it implies that he is a ball-stopper that doesn't fit into what the team wants. I don't disagree with that, and it's fine.

But the rankings are subjective in who is chosen for comparison (that list of like 15 random PGs) and don't take into account the context of the Kings last year. Things like 1) like the general offense looking disorganized and suffering from many old classic Kings problems, 2) The severe lacking of secondary ballhandlers, and 3) the fact that Isaiah was statistically effective with the ball in his hands (good assist/TO, excellent scorer by all measures).

I don't have a problem with the main drive of what the article is saying. But to just look at that stat and say "Isaiah is the biggest ballhog in the association" is totally ridiculous and shows that a clear bias against him is clouding your argument.

I don't have a bias at all. I am sending my so. To his bball damp because I appreciate the drive and work that it took him to even make it in the league - let alone have the success he has.

But that stat line has given me a defined context to understand what my old bball players eye was seeing. The fit was wrong because he is the wrong type of scorer to have with our interior dominant #1 and #2 scorers.

As I already said, I don't necessarily disagree with that. I was merely arguing the considerable exaggeration of calling Isaiah the biggest ballhog in the association.

[pillwenney]

Nope.

Read the article.

I had already read the article and it implies that he is a ball-stopper that doesn't fit into what the team wants. I don't disagree with that, and it's fine.

But the rankings are subjective in who is chosen for comparison (that list of like 15 random PGs) and don't take into account the context of the Kings last year. Things like 1) like the general offense looking disorganized and suffering from many old classic Kings problems, 2) The severe lacking of secondary ballhandlers, and 3) the fact that Isaiah was statistically effective with the ball in his hands (good assist/TO, excellent scorer by all measures).

I don't have a problem with the main drive of what the article is saying. But to just look at that stat and say "Isaiah is the biggest ballhog in the association" is totally ridiculous and shows that a clear bias against him is clouding your argument.

So in other words there is a PG that would rank lower than Isaiah? Kobe for crying out loud shares the ball more! There's nothing to agree or disagree with. The number is pretty relevant. Everyone's love for the Pizza Guy is clouded by the fact he doesn't share the last slice. He is Stephon Marbury 2.0.

You guys are aware this is a Sactown Royalty article? They love IT and have been pissed the Kings did not match (See Twitter). This is a fan post, but they did not need to post it.

The article also said that Kobe passes more than a lot of PGs including freaking Rondo, who is known as one of the most pass-first players in the league. At some point, you have to notice that simply looking at this stat and use it as a definitive measure of how much of a ballhog a guy is is ridiculous. It's interesting, but this has a lot more to do with time of possession than how willing a passer a guy is. Isaiah had the ball a lot in part because he is overly ball-dominant, and in large part because of a severe lack of other ballhandlers on the team.

Of the guys on that list, Collison, Paul, Lowry, Evans, Williams, Irving, Dragic and Curry all often shared the court with other dominant ballhandlers. Isaiah didn't have that, and thus spent a lot of time pounding the rock.

Now as I've said on multiple occasions, this is something of an indicator of a trend we know with Isaiah, and one that I agree with, and it's why I'm not totally against going in another direction. I do however think it wasn't worth doing for Darren Collison.

[KF10]

The article from the sactownroyalty website was insightful.

If I had to change anything, I put the players into categories/tiers by USG% rate (21-25; 26-30; etc) and then, rank them.

I think this will draw a better picture for his conclusion.

[OGSactownballer]

I had already read the article and it implies that he is a ball-stopper that doesn't fit into what the team wants. I don't disagree with that, and it's fine.

But the rankings are subjective in who is chosen for comparison (that list of like 15 random PGs) and don't take into account the context of the Kings last year. Things like 1) like the general offense looking disorganized and suffering from many old classic Kings problems, 2) The severe lacking of secondary ballhandlers, and 3) the fact that Isaiah was statistically effective with the ball in his hands (good assist/TO, excellent scorer by all measures).

I don't have a problem with the main drive of what the article is saying. But to just look at that stat and say "Isaiah is the biggest ballhog in the association" is totally ridiculous and shows that a clear bias against him is clouding your argument.

So in other words there is a PG that would rank lower than Isaiah? Kobe for crying out loud shares the ball more! There's nothing to agree or disagree with. The number is pretty relevant. Everyone's love for the Pizza Guy is clouded by the fact he doesn't share the last slice. He is Stephon Marbury 2.0.

You guys are aware this is a Sactown Royalty article? They love IT and have been pissed the Kings did not match (See Twitter). This is a fan post, but they did not need to post it.

The article also said that Kobe passes more than a lot of PGs including freaking Rondo, who is known as one of the most pass-first players in the league. At some point, you have to notice that simply looking at this stat and use it as a definitive measure of how much of a ballhog a guy is is ridiculous. It's interesting, but this has a lot more to do with time of possession than how willing a passer a guy is. Isaiah had the ball a lot in part because he is overly ball-dominant, and in large part because of a severe lack of other ballhandlers on the team.

Of the guys on that list, Collison, Paul, Lowry, Evans, Williams, Irving, Dragic and Curry all often shared the court with other dominant ballhandlers. Isaiah didn't have that, and thus spent a lot of time pounding the rock.

Now as I've said on multiple occasions, this is something of an indicator of a trend we know with Isaiah, and one that I agree with, and it's why I'm not totally against going in another direction. I do however think it wasn't worth doing for Darren Collison.

That's all well and good until you combine in the eye test factor of every one of usast year watching him not only found the hell out of the rock, but also actively ignore open men and taking ridiculous playground circus shots through created necessity BECAUSE he burned up the shot clock.

[pillwenney]

If that's your opinion based off of the eye test, then I don't agree, but that's fine. I just don't think one should cherry pick a stat like that and use it to make such an extreme conclusion.

[ICMTM]

But you guys do it with 20/6? We're saying how he does it. He has the ball way too long!

[pillwenney]

But you're also not considering A) the situation (i.e. lack of other options for ballhandling), or B) that he's a very good scorer, and therefore him holding the ball isn't always a bad thing.

Anyway, I'm not arguing that Isaiah didn't over-dribble. Never was. I just think we shouldn't get so hyperbolic about this.

[bwgood77]

I don't totally understand what you guys are doing here. When you let Thomas go, I figured you had a trade for Rondo in the works or close to done.

Why would you sign a guy like Collison to START?

I've read that the team wants other players to get more involved but Collison has fewer assists per 36 than Thomas, so obviously he won't help there as much unless you think other players who get the ball more will pass more, but I don't know how good of passers the rest of the team is.

Also, Thomas has a higher TS% in every year, than Cousins or Gay have had in any one year in their careers, so your best chance of getting efficient points is with Thomas over anyone else anyway.

I guess defensively he may not be great, but PG defense can be a bit overrated.

Now if the ultimate plan is to get Rondo and Josh Smith, it all makes sense. I assume for Rondo you'd have to give up Stauskas and more, and that probably still doesn't get it done. Smith might be easier since they may just want out from his contract.

The ultimate plan can't be going from Thomas to Collison and expecting team improvement can it?

Is the plan to make sure you keep that pick owed to Chicago no matter what until it turns into a second rounder?

[SacKingZZZ]

There is another thread which displays some of the reason IT was let go. Hopefully they don't see why in Phoenix. haha.

While his assists were higher Thomas is one of the league losers in passing the ball, not assists, but actually passing the ball to someone else during an offensive possession which makes him one of the league leaders in being Mr. Glue Fingers.

[ICMTM]

Not to over dribble the rock into the hardwood but...

Thomas dribbled the ball 496 times per 36 minutes, the fourth-largest number among all guards who logged at least 25 minutes per game, according to an analysis of SportVU visual-tracking data provided exclusively to Grantland. Thomas took an average of 5.7 dribbles every time he touched the ball, the second-highest number among all qualifying guards, trailing only D.J. Augustin, per the STATS LLC analysis.

http://grantland.com/features/sacrament ... -strategy/

[pillwenney]

Augustin was also on a team that really lacked any other ballhandler. Advanced numbers are useful, but still need to be put in the proper context.