The Myth of Jason Thompson - is there a perfect Boogie's PF?

[RedAlice]

These are stats of some PFs that has been in Kings roster these years:

Carl Landry:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... game::none

Jason Thompson:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... tals::none

Patrick Patterson:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... game::none

So is it fair now to ask why Boogie's partner is so hard to play and why? Think of Ralph Sampson, Otis Thorpe, Tim Duncan, or even McRoberts...

[blind prophet]

They've got bs contracts around him at 4, none of them compliment him well and Pat couldn't hit a shot to save his life when he was here.

Evans actually has done decently besides Cousins.

Not sure what you mean by myth of JT either.

[Kings2013]

Supposedly Evans and JT have been the MVPs of the camp.. As a platoon if Landry finds his game they could be serviceable at the position

[SacKingZZZ]

It's hard to compare and really even evaluate the success of a role player when there is no real established identity offensively for the team as a whole. Patrick Patterson should have been a great fit, but the chemistry wasn't there. The structure was missing and that's crucial for role players. If you want to see PPat used the right way in a real system you look at his Raptors or Rockets numbers. It's kind of the same story with Hickson when he was here. He didn't just all of a sudden suck, he didn't fit and wasn't used to this strengths. To me it's inexcusable for a player like Patterson to fail here though. As a stretch 4 he should have been a perfect fit regardless. That comes down to coaching and roster management plain and simple.

If JT can develop that 3 ball and the coach uses him primarily as a spot shooting stretch the floor type he'll hopefully be what PPat could have been. That will only happen if the structure is there though.

As for Evans, on paper he's the most attractive option next to Cousins and last year he was clearly the best fit. I just don't know if this team might need a little more offense though. Losing Isaiah, while potentially great for that structure, is also a loss in talent no matter how you look at it. If the SG spot can't pick up the slack then this team might struggle to find that 3rd point of productivity.

[RedAlice]

They've got bs contracts around him at 4, none of them compliment him well and Pat couldn't hit a shot to save his life when he was here.

Evans actually has done decently besides Cousins.

Not sure what you mean by myth of JT either.

Many kings fans are expecting them to trade JT away for some better players, while many of them cannot quite discover what's the reason of him being not that good. In fact most of the time it is not that easy to nitpick him on his performance (ok let's forget the game against HOU where he cost us the entire game) considering the chances he get. Also the team showed very little will of trading him away.
On the other hand, there's so little sign of the two bigs having chemical reactions. The only link between them I can recall last season was at the end of G1 against Nuggets, when JT dunked the ball into the hoop after DMC missed the post up isolation. That dunk killed Nuggets.
As a star player, it is usual that you make the game of your teammates easier (DH12 doesn't). It is true to those point guards who play with Boogie (as he is so efficient in P&R and making screens for point guards), but not true to those wings, power fowards... Patrick Patterson can get minutes in Raptors so there's no reason to think that he cannot shoot. So is there any playstyle of Boogie that make his starting PF always seem struggling?

[RedAlice]

It's hard to compare and really even evaluate the success of a role player when there is no real established identity offensively for the team as a whole. Patrick Patterson should have been a great fit, but the chemistry wasn't there. The structure was missing and that's crucial for role players. If you want to see PPat used the right way in a real system you look at his Raptors or Rockets numbers. It's kind of the same story with Hickson when he was here. He didn't just all of a sudden suck, he didn't fit and wasn't used to this strengths. To me it's inexcusable for a player like Patterson to fail here though. As a stretch 4 he should have been a perfect fit regardless. That comes down to coaching and roster management plain and simple.

If JT can develop that 3 ball and the coach uses him primarily as a spot shooting stretch the floor type he'll hopefully be what PPat could have been. That will only happen if the structure is there though.

As for Evans, on paper he's the most attractive option next to Cousins and last year he was clearly the best fit. I just don't know if this team might need a little more offense though. Losing Isaiah, while potentially great for that structure, is also a loss in talent no matter how you look at it. If the SG spot can't pick up the slack then this team might struggle to find that 3rd point of productivity.

The absolute best lineup we could get last season was Thomas, Thornton, Gay, Thompson and Cousins no matter how you look at it (stats or observation). After the Thornton trade, Thomas mysteriously lost the ability to organize offense from 3s or make 3s himself. The team reduced their 3PA in a night.

[blind prophet]

They've got bs contracts around him at 4, none of them compliment him well and Pat couldn't hit a shot to save his life when he was here.

Evans actually has done decently besides Cousins.

Not sure what you mean by myth of JT either.

Many kings fans are expecting them to trade JT away for some better players, while many of them cannot quite discover what's the reason of him being not that good. In fact most of the time it is not that easy to nitpick him on his performance (ok let's forget the game against HOU where he cost us the entire game) considering the chances he get. Also the team showed very little will of trading him away.
On the other hand, there's so little sign of the two bigs having chemical reactions. The only link between them I can recall last season was at the end of G1 against Nuggets, when JT dunked the ball into the hoop after DMC missed the post up isolation. That dunk killed Nuggets.
As a star player, it is usual that you make the game of your teammates easier (DH12 doesn't). It is true to those point guards who play with Boogie (as he is so efficient in P&R and making screens for point guards), but not true to those wings, power fowards... Patrick Patterson can get minutes in Raptors so there's no reason to think that he cannot shoot. So is there any playstyle of Boogie that make his starting PF always seem struggling?

Pat shot like 23% from 3 for us, I'd of benched his ass too. We've got years of samples from JT to know what to expect from him. JT's contract is terrible no one wants him it has negative value. Our perimeter D was terrible as was our shooting from SG.

So at least a defensive presence from the 4 helps with liabilities in the paint and keeps Cousins fouls down.

Evans stays out of the way offensively, manhandles people while on the court, is one of the best per minute rebounders in the last 20 years, so considering what we have he was the better man.

[RedAlice]

They've got bs contracts around him at 4, none of them compliment him well and Pat couldn't hit a shot to save his life when he was here.

Evans actually has done decently besides Cousins.

Not sure what you mean by myth of JT either.

Many kings fans are expecting them to trade JT away for some better players, while many of them cannot quite discover what's the reason of him being not that good. In fact most of the time it is not that easy to nitpick him on his performance (ok let's forget the game against HOU where he cost us the entire game) considering the chances he get. Also the team showed very little will of trading him away.
On the other hand, there's so little sign of the two bigs having chemical reactions. The only link between them I can recall last season was at the end of G1 against Nuggets, when JT dunked the ball into the hoop after DMC missed the post up isolation. That dunk killed Nuggets.
As a star player, it is usual that you make the game of your teammates easier (DH12 doesn't). It is true to those point guards who play with Boogie (as he is so efficient in P&R and making screens for point guards), but not true to those wings, power fowards... Patrick Patterson can get minutes in Raptors so there's no reason to think that he cannot shoot. So is there any playstyle of Boogie that make his starting PF always seem struggling?

Pat shot like 23% from 3 for us, I'd of benched his ass too. We've got years of samples from JT to know what to expect from him. JT's contract is terrible no one wants him it has negative value. Our perimeter D was terrible as was our shooting from SG.

So at least a defensive presence from the 4 helps with liabilities in the paint and keeps Cousins fouls down.

Evans stays out of the way offensively, manhandles people while on the court, is one of the best per minute rebounders in the last 20 years, so considering what we have he was the better man.

Reggie Evans is not an "out of the way" guy offensively when I was watching the kings game ...

[RedAlice]

They've got bs contracts around him at 4, none of them compliment him well and Pat couldn't hit a shot to save his life when he was here.

Evans actually has done decently besides Cousins.

Not sure what you mean by myth of JT either.

Many kings fans are expecting them to trade JT away for some better players, while many of them cannot quite discover what's the reason of him being not that good. In fact most of the time it is not that easy to nitpick him on his performance (ok let's forget the game against HOU where he cost us the entire game) considering the chances he get. Also the team showed very little will of trading him away.
On the other hand, there's so little sign of the two bigs having chemical reactions. The only link between them I can recall last season was at the end of G1 against Nuggets, when JT dunked the ball into the hoop after DMC missed the post up isolation. That dunk killed Nuggets.
As a star player, it is usual that you make the game of your teammates easier (DH12 doesn't). It is true to those point guards who play with Boogie (as he is so efficient in P&R and making screens for point guards), but not true to those wings, power fowards... Patrick Patterson can get minutes in Raptors so there's no reason to think that he cannot shoot. So is there any playstyle of Boogie that make his starting PF always seem struggling?

Pat shot like 23% from 3 for us, I'd of benched his ass too. We've got years of samples from JT to know what to expect from him. JT's contract is terrible no one wants him it has negative value. Our perimeter D was terrible as was our shooting from SG.

So at least a defensive presence from the 4 helps with liabilities in the paint and keeps Cousins fouls down.

Evans stays out of the way offensively, manhandles people while on the court, is one of the best per minute rebounders in the last 20 years, so considering what we have he was the better man.

Given the chance to choose Z-BO or Serge Ibaka as Boogie's partner, I would go with Z-BO though he's not what he used to be. If the team can put more pressure on their opponents‘ defensive rebounds, it creates difficulties for their opponents to complete an offense in transition and the team will have more time to find their men. I've seen a ton of these scenes when DMC misses an isolation, the opponent gets the rebound easily and immediately scored through transition.

I think people overrate Boogie's offensive impact and tend to ignore the effort he put on defense. DMC ranked top five on stopping opponents one offensive round and has a DRTG of 102.

Speaking of foul troubles, DMC also gets a lot of offensive fouls.

Kings was the worst at defending 3s and mid-range shots, and the team lose the game mostly because the easy open 3 chances they give away. The game at Indiana is a perfect demonstration.

The thing I wanted to know most is why Boogie's big fellow men is always not satisfying. Clearly they are not at their best compared to the stats they had in other teams. Boogie seems to be doing the jobs of two positions on his own and of course he is not that efficient ( if you look at the turnovers ). It is more crucial that I can't recall many links between our big man, no matter it is DMC & JT, DMC & Reggie or DMC & Patterson. When the team moves the ball, it means moves the ball between those three people. Gay cannot think of his teammates after one dribble. When the rest of the team gets the ball, usually it's end with them, a layup, a 3 (which bricks, sometimes because DMC throws passes that are too tricky).

It is not usual for a star center to perform his best while his big man partner gets his worst year at the same time. As I said, star players make others' games easier.


EDIT: Last season DMC's USG is higher than the highest season of these great names: Shaq, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing and equals 96-97 Karl Malone. If you look at their points and assists, hmm...

[fluffhead]

i liked boogie playing at the 4 with dalambert
i defensive 5 playing next to him would be great, mcgee?

[SacKingZZZ]

They've got bs contracts around him at 4, none of them compliment him well and Pat couldn't hit a shot to save his life when he was here.

Evans actually has done decently besides Cousins.

Not sure what you mean by myth of JT either.

Many kings fans are expecting them to trade JT away for some better players, while many of them cannot quite discover what's the reason of him being not that good. In fact most of the time it is not that easy to nitpick him on his performance (ok let's forget the game against HOU where he cost us the entire game) considering the chances he get. Also the team showed very little will of trading him away.
On the other hand, there's so little sign of the two bigs having chemical reactions. The only link between them I can recall last season was at the end of G1 against Nuggets, when JT dunked the ball into the hoop after DMC missed the post up isolation. That dunk killed Nuggets.
As a star player, it is usual that you make the game of your teammates easier (DH12 doesn't). It is true to those point guards who play with Boogie (as he is so efficient in P&R and making screens for point guards), but not true to those wings, power fowards... Patrick Patterson can get minutes in Raptors so there's no reason to think that he cannot shoot. So is there any playstyle of Boogie that make his starting PF always seem struggling?

Pat shot like 23% from 3 for us, I'd of benched his ass too. We've got years of samples from JT to know what to expect from him. JT's contract is terrible no one wants him it has negative value. Our perimeter D was terrible as was our shooting from SG.

So at least a defensive presence from the 4 helps with liabilities in the paint and keeps Cousins fouls down.

Evans stays out of the way offensively, manhandles people while on the court, is one of the best per minute rebounders in the last 20 years, so considering what we have he was the better man.

Was it really Pattersons fault though? Look at Pattersons career numbers (much like Hickson), then compare them to his numbers in Sacramento. Notice the one thing that sticks out? Yeah, I'd say that the problems most likely had something to do with where he was, or how he was used. Having spot shooters at the right spots, getting the pass at the right time, at the right angle, consistently, etc. makes a huge difference in the success of a role player spot shooter. If anything they need the structure more than anyone else on the floor and when they don't have it they look awful if not borderline useless.

[SacKingZZZ]

i liked boogie playing at the 4 with dalambert
i defensive 5 playing next to him would be great, mcgee?

For stretches it worked, but it also hurt in many other areas. Offensively Cousins started to migrate farther and farther away from the basket and when he was there he'd have to fight for space with Daly or JT. Also the concerning defensive aspect was as time went on teams started to just run pick and roll on both bigs and it caused Cousins to have to pick up the slack and guard players that athletically is probably not the best option for him.

I think we are going to see some of Cousins at the 4 this year if Hollins gets minutes. Pete D'allesandro has alluded to it already.

[blind prophet]

Was it really Pattersons fault though? Look at Pattersons career numbers (much like Hickson), then compare them to his numbers in Sacramento. Notice the one thing that sticks out? Yeah, I'd say that the problems most likely had something to do with where he was, or how he was used. Having spot shooters at the right spots, getting the pass at the right time, at the right angle, consistently, etc. makes a huge difference in the success of a role player spot shooter. If anything they need the structure more than anyone else on the floor and when they don't have it they look awful if not borderline useless.

Hickson would be more of a Keith Smart issue, I consider him old news. But Patterson had open looks, that I remember, and not looks where he had to force up garbage. He simply stank here, now I have not compared shot selection spots from here to Toronto, but considering we run a lot of offense through Cousins, Pat should of been able to land more than 23%. He should of been at 30% at least from every spot behind the arc to be any worthwhile stretch.

Rudy Gay came in here and looked pretty well, so I'm assuming good shots were as available here to Pat as they were in Toronto considering the low volume per game his usage rate is.

He had 4 or 5 good looks a game with us. Just not acceptable.

[City of Trees]

Moreland will start over all of them by seasons end. ... or at least I hope.

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[SadKingsFan]

I want Jason Thompson OUT. he sucks, and makes the same mistakes he did as a damn
rookie. not sure why he's still here

[ICMTM]

I don't think it's necessarily Cousins or those three that are the issue. What I mean is players are who they are. They just don't fit because that's their game. Thompson and Cousins are somewhat similar players with the exception that DMC executes and Thompson doesn't. Landry is a role player. He fits better as a PF with the 2nd unit. Patterson can't defend/rebound well enough.

Unfortunately JT has been the best fit as he's at least willing to try and be a team player.

[pillwenney]

There's a perfect fit out there. His name is Serge Ibaka and he'll never play here.

[SactoKingsFan]

JT obviously has minimal trade value, so we're probably stuck with him until he's an expiring contract. I just hope Moreland works out and takes a big chunk of JT's minutes. I'm tired of his complaining and mediocre play.

[Andrew McCeltic]

I think Greg Monroe fans have already claimed Ibaka as HIS perfect fit...

[SacKingZZZ]

I think Detroit already has the perfect fit for Monroe in Drummond. Someone that can handle the bigger bodies that Monroe can't. Have no idea why they can't make Monroe and Drummond work.