Andre Drummond vs. Meyers Leonard

[ManualRam]

You always take raw potential when it comes to bigs.

who is this post in reference of? they both have raw potential.

[Superiorblogman]

Leonard does not have raw potential. He came to campus lost. The only way one can say he has raw potential is if they look at size. Drummond came to campus displaying raw potential from day 1. This argument makes no sense to me. If this was Leonard and Drummond both rookie season I would still take Drummond. Considering this is Leonard's sophomore year and Drummond's freshman year and Drummond is younger it is not even close Drummond's production is already better and he is obviously still raw while Leonard has had a summer in which he utilized to develop his body and other things which makes him removed from being raw.

Leonard averages a PT per every 2.32 minutes played
Drummond a PT every 2.78 minute

Drummond a rebound every 3.68 minutes played
Leonard a rebound every 3.83 minutes played

Drummond a block every 11.04 minutes played
Leonard a block every 14.6 minutes played

Leonard gets to FT line once every 7.8 minutes played
Drummond gets to line once every 11.04 minutes played

As I have said I want my bigs to rebound and protect the rim more than anything. Drummond as a raw freshman does both better than Leonard as a sophomore even after Leonard went and gained weight and probably spent a summer working out with professional level trainers and such. Like I say this is a joke to even think Leonard is close and that is how the scouts will see it also. They have been wrong before and so have I, but none of the arguments you guys are making for Leonard make any sense.

[Blkbrd671]

Drummond's raw potential is leaps and bounds above leonard.

Leonard ceiling is chandler

Drumond's ceiling is dwight

not really much of a comparison.

[skones]

Leonard reminds me a lot of Bogut when he was in college to be honest. His post game isn't nearly as refined as Bogut's at the same age, and that didn't exactly translate well with Bogut which is worrisome as Leonard transitions to the NBA.

[ManualRam]

Leonard does not have raw potential. He came to campus lost. The only way one can say he has raw potential is if they look at size. Drummond came to campus displaying raw potential from day 1. This argument makes no sense to me. If this was Leonard and Drummond both rookie season I would still take Drummond. Considering this is Leonard's sophomore year and Drummond's freshman year and Drummond is younger it is not even close Drummond's production is already better and he is obviously still raw while Leonard has had a summer in which he utilized to develop his body and other things which makes him removed from being raw.

Leonard averages a PT per every 2.32 minutes played
Drummond a PT every 2.78 minute

Drummond a rebound every 3.68 minutes played
Leonard a rebound every 3.83 minutes played

Drummond a block every 11.04 minutes played
Leonard a block every 14.6 minutes played

Leonard gets to FT line once every 7.8 minutes played
Drummond gets to line once every 11.04 minutes played

As I have said I want my bigs to rebound and protect the rim more than anything. Drummond as a raw freshman does both better than Leonard as a sophomore even after Leonard went and gained weight and probably spent a summer working out with professional level trainers and such. Like I say this is a joke to even think Leonard is close and that is how the scouts will see it also. They have been wrong before and so have I, but none of the arguments you guys are making for Leonard make any sense.

you make no sense. in one thread you acknowledge leonard's physical talent, agreeing that he is one of the most naturally talented players in this draft. then you say he has no raw potential??
from what is raw potential projected from?? raw talent. it sure isnt skill or ability because drummond hasnt shown any of that.


leonard came to campus with raw potential as well. if you followed the drafts prior to last college season you'd see meyers leonard (and jereme richmond's name FTM) hovering around the lottery. the difference is that drummond was much more highly touted (#1 prospect in his class) and he went to a program that needed his production immediately. illinois is not a school for 1 and done-rs. coach weber is not one to lean heavily on freshmen, especially if they're not physically ready to contribute, which leonard was not. meyers joined a senior laden illinois team and was treated as a project, which is how it should be for players as raw as leonard and drummond were coming out of HS. but make no mistake, the physical tools and yes, RAW POTENTIAL were always there with leonard.

now i do agree that drummond has MORE raw potential, but he has much further to go to even be serviceable player. his mental makeup is highly questionable as is his overall feel for the game. in a perfect world, he would not have gone to a team that was dependent on his production (IMO, his raw-ness is a big reason why they have continuity issues). unlike in leonard's case, we've been able to see how his freshman yr has progressed and imo, it hasnt looked good. i dont see much progression at all. he's a big athlete who's only decent attribute currently is the fact that he's a big athlete.

[ManualRam]

Drummond's raw potential is leaps and bounds above leonard.

Leonard ceiling is chandler

Drumond's ceiling is dwight

not really much of a comparison.

i dont see either ceiling/comparison really.

at the same stage, chandler was a spastic wiry athlete who had no offensive game, bad hands and no touch around the paint. to this day he doesnt have a back to the basket game. leonard has a back to the basket game and shows a willingness to work out of the post.

drummond does not have a natural proclivity to work out of the post. he wants to work in space and despite his huge size advantages, has no idea how to play big.

[ManualRam]

Leonard reminds me a lot of Bogut when he was in college to be honest. His post game isn't nearly as refined as Bogut's at the same age, and that didn't exactly translate well with Bogut which is worrisome as Leonard transitions to the NBA.

i can see that a little bit. leonard's not nearly as strong at the same stage in the lower body, but he is the far better athlete.

[skones]

Leonard reminds me a lot of Bogut when he was in college to be honest. His post game isn't nearly as refined as Bogut's at the same age, and that didn't exactly translate well with Bogut which is worrisome as Leonard transitions to the NBA.

i can see that a little bit. leonard's not nearly as strong at the same stage in the lower body, but he is the far better athlete.

I wouldn't say far better athlete, as I think Bogut's athleticism coming out of Utah was pretty under rated, but he is a slightly better athlete. If you take him in the top 5, you're reaching big time IMO, given the talent available in this draft class, but if you're looking in the 10-14 range, you could find yourself with great value.

[ManualRam]

Leonard reminds me a lot of Bogut when he was in college to be honest. His post game isn't nearly as refined as Bogut's at the same age, and that didn't exactly translate well with Bogut which is worrisome as Leonard transitions to the NBA.

i can see that a little bit. leonard's not nearly as strong at the same stage in the lower body, but he is the far better athlete.

I wouldn't say far better athlete, as I think Bogut's athleticism coming out of Utah was pretty under rated, but he is a slightly better athlete. If you take him in the top 5, you're reaching big time IMO, given the talent available in this draft class, but if you're looking in the 10-14 range, you could find yourself with great value.

i never saw bogut as a great athlete. his feet were heavy and he didnt have much lift or lateral quicks.
leonard runs the floor like a deer and is very springy, he also has the agility to hedge out high on wings and recover back into the paint which is a very valuable asset to have defensively in PnR heavy play.

i wouldnt take leonard top 5, but i can see top 10. i'd take him over guys like PJ3, henson, moultrie and either zeller.

[Superiorblogman]

You must also acknowledge that both are on underachieving teams but this is happening in Leonard's 2nd year as opposed to Drummond's 1st. People say Leonard has improved but his team is in a situation where they are looking at not even making the NCAA tourney so he definitely is not really impacting the games positively that much. I'm telling you if you take him the lottery it is a bad pick

[Superiorblogman]

Leonard does not have raw potential. He came to campus lost. The only way one can say he has raw potential is if they look at size. Drummond came to campus displaying raw potential from day 1. This argument makes no sense to me. If this was Leonard and Drummond both rookie season I would still take Drummond. Considering this is Leonard's sophomore year and Drummond's freshman year and Drummond is younger it is not even close Drummond's production is already better and he is obviously still raw while Leonard has had a summer in which he utilized to develop his body and other things which makes him removed from being raw.

Leonard averages a PT per every 2.32 minutes played
Drummond a PT every 2.78 minute

Drummond a rebound every 3.68 minutes played
Leonard a rebound every 3.83 minutes played

Drummond a block every 11.04 minutes played
Leonard a block every 14.6 minutes played

Leonard gets to FT line once every 7.8 minutes played
Drummond gets to line once every 11.04 minutes played

As I have said I want my bigs to rebound and protect the rim more than anything. Drummond as a raw freshman does both better than Leonard as a sophomore even after Leonard went and gained weight and probably spent a summer working out with professional level trainers and such. Like I say this is a joke to even think Leonard is close and that is how the scouts will see it also. They have been wrong before and so have I, but none of the arguments you guys are making for Leonard make any sense.

you make no sense. in one thread you acknowledge leonard's physical talent, agreeing that he is one of the most naturally talented players in this draft. then you say he has no raw potential??
from what is raw potential projected from?? raw talent. it sure isnt skill or ability because drummond hasnt shown any of that.


leonard came to campus with raw potential as well. if you followed the drafts prior to last college season you'd see meyers leonard (and jereme richmond's name FTM) hovering around the lottery. the difference is that drummond was much more highly touted (#1 prospect in his class) and he went to a program that needed his production immediately. illinois is not a school for 1 and done-rs. coach weber is not one to lean heavily on freshmen, especially if they're not physically ready to contribute, which leonard was not. meyers joined a senior laden illinois team and was treated as a project, which is how it should be for players as raw as leonard and drummond were coming out of HS. but make no mistake, the physical tools and yes, RAW POTENTIAL were always there with leonard.

now i do agree that drummond has MORE raw potential, but he has much further to go to even be serviceable player. his mental makeup is highly questionable as is his overall feel for the game. in a perfect world, he would not have gone to a team that was dependent on his production (IMO, his raw-ness is a big reason why they have continuity issues). unlike in leonard's case, we've been able to see how his freshman yr has progressed and imo, it hasnt looked good. i dont see much progression at all. he's a big athlete who's only decent attribute currently is the fact that he's a big athlete.

You are totally lost I just proved to you by stats that don't lie how Drummond is already more productive but you say he has further to go than a guy he is already more productive than. Serviceable means able to produce. How can a guy that is already producing more than the one you are comparing him to be less serviceable when he is already more serviceable? Don't answer that because I know the answer and it is because you woke up and thought it sounded smart.

[ManualRam]

Leonard does not have raw potential. He came to campus lost. The only way one can say he has raw potential is if they look at size. Drummond came to campus displaying raw potential from day 1. This argument makes no sense to me. If this was Leonard and Drummond both rookie season I would still take Drummond. Considering this is Leonard's sophomore year and Drummond's freshman year and Drummond is younger it is not even close Drummond's production is already better and he is obviously still raw while Leonard has had a summer in which he utilized to develop his body and other things which makes him removed from being raw.

Leonard averages a PT per every 2.32 minutes played
Drummond a PT every 2.78 minute

Drummond a rebound every 3.68 minutes played
Leonard a rebound every 3.83 minutes played

Drummond a block every 11.04 minutes played
Leonard a block every 14.6 minutes played

Leonard gets to FT line once every 7.8 minutes played
Drummond gets to line once every 11.04 minutes played

As I have said I want my bigs to rebound and protect the rim more than anything. Drummond as a raw freshman does both better than Leonard as a sophomore even after Leonard went and gained weight and probably spent a summer working out with professional level trainers and such. Like I say this is a joke to even think Leonard is close and that is how the scouts will see it also. They have been wrong before and so have I, but none of the arguments you guys are making for Leonard make any sense.

you make no sense. in one thread you acknowledge leonard's physical talent, agreeing that he is one of the most naturally talented players in this draft. then you say he has no raw potential??
from what is raw potential projected from?? raw talent. it sure isnt skill or ability because drummond hasnt shown any of that.


leonard came to campus with raw potential as well. if you followed the drafts prior to last college season you'd see meyers leonard (and jereme richmond's name FTM) hovering around the lottery. the difference is that drummond was much more highly touted (#1 prospect in his class) and he went to a program that needed his production immediately. illinois is not a school for 1 and done-rs. coach weber is not one to lean heavily on freshmen, especially if they're not physically ready to contribute, which leonard was not. meyers joined a senior laden illinois team and was treated as a project, which is how it should be for players as raw as leonard and drummond were coming out of HS. but make no mistake, the physical tools and yes, RAW POTENTIAL were always there with leonard.

now i do agree that drummond has MORE raw potential, but he has much further to go to even be serviceable player. his mental makeup is highly questionable as is his overall feel for the game. in a perfect world, he would not have gone to a team that was dependent on his production (IMO, his raw-ness is a big reason why they have continuity issues). unlike in leonard's case, we've been able to see how his freshman yr has progressed and imo, it hasnt looked good. i dont see much progression at all. he's a big athlete who's only decent attribute currently is the fact that he's a big athlete.

You are totally lost I just proved to you by stats that don't lie how Drummond is already more productive but you say he has further to go than a guy he is already more productive than. Serviceable means able to produce. How can a guy that is already producing more than the one you are comparing him to be less serviceable when he is already more serviceable? Don't answer that because I know the answer and it is because you woke up and thought it sounded smart.

really? all those stats prove is that drummond is a better shot blocker. thats it.
so no, he's not already more productive than leonard.

college stats dont necessarily translate to NBA stats either. talent, skill AND intangibles do. drummond has the talent, but he doesnt have the skill or intangibles to be a serviceable player in the near future. drummond's not just going to be able to "out-athleticize" people at the next level with his technique. in college he doesnt outwork anybody. he doesnt consistently box out. he doesnt fight for position. leonard does. leonard is the one facing double and triple teams off the ball. drummond OTOH is just an opportunist on offense. defensive schemes arent drawn up to stop him. i mean c'mon now, he doesnt even have a jump hook. drummond will not be serviceable any time in the near future with his skill set and instincts as they are VERY poor for a big man. he is a big time project with big bust potential. drummond will need to put in serious work this off-season to get to where leonard is in terms of skill and knowing the nuances of the big man game. leonard has work to do as well to be serviceable, but not as much as drummond. he at least has shown some offensive ability, a willingness to bang in the paint, consistently box out (which he does very well), play with his back to the basket, hit open jumpers, while ALSO showing advanced big man skills such as counter-counter moves and the ability to pass out of double teams.

[gensu3k1]

Drummond is a supreme athletic specimen. No comparison between him and all but a few basketball players on the planet. On the other hand, his demeanor, personality and general intangibles are terrifying.

Leonard doesn't have those personality issues and I really like his demeanor from the games I've seen. But he's not in Drummond's league from an athletic potential standpoint.

[Eoghan]

They've both got really dysfunctional teams that do a bad job of utilizing their bigs.

[peachbucket]

Drummond is a supreme athletic specimen. No comparison between him and all but a few basketball players on the planet. On the other hand, his demeanor, personality and general intangibles are terrifying.

Leonard doesn't have those personality issues and I really like his demeanor from the games I've seen. But he's not in Drummond's league from an athletic potential standpoint.

.

For a 7+ footer, Leonard has supreme athleticism as well. I think peoples eyes will open after the measurements come out...I'm guessing he has close to a 35" max vertical which would put him in some elite company.

[ManualRam]

They've both got really dysfunctional teams that do a bad job of utilizing their bigs.

what do you think is the best way to utilize drummond given his current skillset?

[Eoghan]

They've both got really dysfunctional teams that do a bad job of utilizing their bigs.

what do you think is the best way to utilize drummond given his current skillset?

As a decoy. He does pass pretty well so let him catch the ball, make a move and draw defenders and then dish to the open man. Uconn actually has shooters and another big in Oriakhi so since he's so quick and can't shoot free throws to save his life he should just be a playmaker.

[Jazzfan12]

Drummond is too terrible at making decisions to be a playmaker. He's thrown a ton of behind the back bullet passes to covered teammates who had no chance of catching the ball this year.

[UGA Hayes]

Plus you have to be something of creator for oneself offensively in order to draw people in, which Drummond doesn't really do. Id there is something in between him and the basket be a player, a chair, or an orange cone he doesn't really want any part of it.

[Ruzious]

i can see that a little bit. leonard's not nearly as strong at the same stage in the lower body, but he is the far better athlete.

I wouldn't say far better athlete, as I think Bogut's athleticism coming out of Utah was pretty under rated, but he is a slightly better athlete. If you take him in the top 5, you're reaching big time IMO, given the talent available in this draft class, but if you're looking in the 10-14 range, you could find yourself with great value.

i never saw bogut as a great athlete. his feet were heavy and he didnt have much lift or lateral quicks.
leonard runs the floor like a deer and is very springy, he also has the agility to hedge out high on wings and recover back into the paint which is a very valuable asset to have defensively in PnR heavy play.

i wouldnt take leonard top 5, but i can see top 10. i'd take him over guys like PJ3, henson, moultrie and either zeller.

If Leonard is really a better prospect in your eyes than Bogut was, why wouldn't you take him in the top 5?