Can anyone explain Jeremy Lamb's fall?

[Rockmaninoff]

It's pretty simple:

1. Character concerns

2. Average grades for basic things like 2pt scoring and getting to the line

3. Weak physicality

That's not to say that Lamb isn't a skilled player and a decent prospect, it's just that NBA decision makers play the percentages and rank these guys based upon the relative strength of their future potential contributions.

Personally, I would have selected him over guys like Waiters, Ross, Barnes, and Rivers. Probably over Robinson and Leonard as well.

[CablexDeadpool]

@ManualRam

Lamb scored at a high rate because he is a good transition player and finisher that and he was average at 3s.

Terrence Ross, Dion Waiters also scored at a high rates.

And he pretty much did what I described.

Top of the Key and playing on the side of the court that favored his strong hand.

And this is a more accurate description of his weak but effective ball handling to get where he wants to go, every time he stepped out of that or didn't shake someone with his weak crossover, he was cut off.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utC39w1Nxn0[/youtube]

[ManualRam]

@ManualRam

Lamb scored at a high rate because he is a good transition player and finisher that and he was average at 3s.

Terrence Ross, Dion Waiters also scored at a high rates.

And he pretty much did what I described.

Top of the Key and playing on the side of the court that favored his strong hand.

And this is a more accurate description of his weak but effective ball handling to get where he wants to go, every time he stepped out of that or didn't shake someone with his weak crossover, he was cut off.

no, lamb scored at a high rate because he was a versatile enough scorer to be exceptional 3 pt line and down. yeah he was excellent in transition, but uconn wasnt enough of a running to team for that to be a significant part of his game. they were a slower paced half court team. he excelled in spot ups, cutting off the ball, coming off screens and shooting, the mid-range pull up/floater game. no other SG drafted this yr his offensive repertoire. he doesnt have to be reliant on catching and holding or isoing because he's versatile enough to pile up points without having to do so, but that is something he can do as well and that is what i think will seperate him from the rip hamilton's of the world (which btw in his prime was still a pretty damn good player).

and no that description and scouting report is a yr late. he didnt have to handle the ball as a freshman and he improved from 1 yr to the next.
if you were making the case after his freshman yr then i'd agree. not after his sophomore yr. unlike barnes, lamb actually did improve his handle. he HAS the fluidity, the ability to change directions, the ranginess with his dribbles, the ability to use either hand with a strong, preferred off hand. he's not waiters or rivers with his handle, but his handle is better than beal and ross'. beal has no wiggle in his game and ross can only dribble in straight lines.

[Brovva Blaqq]

The discussion who is the better player is really senseless. Summerleague performance is irrelevant - let the boys play a couple of games in the NBA.

[GrangerDanger]

The stupidity in this thread is astounding. I'm going to spam a bunch of videos below me just so the idiots who claim Lamb can't create his own shot get a better understanding of his offensive game.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bSYjDkZvGM[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR7hIV1x8Lg[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9WGB1fL4rY[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tnktoIjtiU[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6Bxv03QyT8[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq5sEd7hsq8[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoQvHwue-sU&feature=plcp[/youtube]

[TheGoodDoctor]

I was mad as hell that Colangelo passed on him (and Drummond) and I still am.

It never made any sense to me how the TOP scoring wing prospect in the lottery wasn't projected at least within the top 7. Cleveland really messed up on the SG they wanted to gamble on taking early in the draft. Lamb has all the skills and talent required to be successful in the league. It's ridiculous that teams passed on him.

[DCsOwn]

Not sure if this thread is dead or not, but I wanted to give my .02 cents on the Beal v Lamb subject.

I'm a HUGE Big East follower that watched around 12 UConn games during Lamb's tenure. I saw considerably less of Beal, maybe six games or so, but I've watched a number of his games dating back to his HS days and the all-star games that preceded his college career, so I feel like I have enough of a handle on his game to give nuanced critiques on the various aspects of his game.

Anyway, my first question to ManualRam is where is this foolishness about Lamb being a better athlete than Beal derived from? I didn't think that was the case before the combine just based on the viewings of the two I had, and their athletic metrics taken at the combine are virtually identical iirc. To my mind there is virtually no athletic area that Lamb holds an appreciable advantage over Beal, and I personally think that Beal has the quicker first step (although neither is Derrick Rose in that dept obviously), gets off of the ground more easily and has the better lateral agility between the two (although that advantage is slight and negated by the length advantage of Lamb.)

I personally predicted on the Wizards board that Beal would post very strong athletic numbers in Chicago because his style of game sorta masks his physical ability. He glides and is efficient but he's routinely just quick enough to get by a guy or jumps just high enough to get a rebound or block a shot. That's because he's actually a strong, underrated athlete and his objective metrics bear that out.

I also don't understand why people insist on comparing Beal's efficiency numbers from last season to Lamb or Ross. He's a full development year behind both of those two and that's actually HUGE at their respective ages. You said it yourself Manual that Lamb improved a significant portion of his game from his freshman season to his sophomore year, and that's the type of development that happens after an individual gains experience at a given level and has time to make adjustments to his game to increase his effectiveness at said level. Beal showed tremendous improvement IN season as a freshman, and once he acclimated himself to the college game had very strong SEC and NCAA tournaments.

If you're going to debate the merits of Beal/Lamb using statistical analysis, the fairest way to do it would be to compare them at comparable stages in their development and project them forward from that point.

[DCsOwn]

Not sure if this thread is dead or not, but I wanted to give my .02 cents on the Beal v Lamb subject.

I'm a HUGE Big East follower that watched around 12 UConn games during Lamb's tenure. I saw considerably less of Beal, maybe six games or so, but I've watched a number of his games dating back to his HS days and the all-star games that preceded his college career, so I feel like I have enough of a handle on his game to give nuanced critiques on the various aspects of his game.

Anyway, my first question to ManualRam is where is this foolishness about Lamb being a better athlete than Beal derived from? I didn't think that was the case before the combine just based on the viewings of the two I had, and their athletic metrics taken at the combine are virtually identical iirc. To my mind there is virtually no athletic area that Lamb holds an appreciable advantage over Beal, and I personally think that Beal has the quicker first step (although neither is Derrick Rose in that dept obviously), gets off of the ground more easily and has the better lateral agility between the two (although that advantage is slight and negated by the length advantage of Lamb.)

I personally predicted on the Wizards board that Beal would post very strong athletic numbers in Chicago because his style of game sorta masks his physical ability. He glides and is efficient but he's routinely just quick enough to get by a guy or jumps just high enough to get a rebound or block a shot. That's because he's actually a strong, underrated athlete and his objective metrics bear that out.

I also don't understand why people insist on comparing Beal's efficiency numbers from last season to Lamb or Ross. He's a full development year behind both of those two and that's actually HUGE at their respective ages. You said it yourself Manual that Lamb improved a significant portion of his game from his freshman season to his sophomore year, and that's the type of development that happens after an individual gains experience at a given level and has time to make adjustments to his game to increase his effectiveness at said level. Beal showed tremendous improvement IN season as a freshman, and once he acclimated himself to the college game had very strong SEC and NCAA tournaments.

If you're going to debate the merits of Beal/Lamb using statistical analysis, the fairest way to do it would be to compare them at comparable stages in their development and project them forward from that point.

[ManualRam]

Anyway, my first question to ManualRam is where is this foolishness about Lamb being a better athlete than Beal derived from? I didn't think that was the case before the combine just based on the viewings of the two I had, and their athletic metrics taken at the combine are virtually identical iirc. To my mind there is virtually no athletic area that Lamb holds an appreciable advantage over Beal, and I personally think that Beal has the quicker first step (although neither is Derrick Rose in that dept obviously), gets off of the ground more easily and has the better lateral agility between the two (although that advantage is slight and negated by the length advantage of Lamb.)

imo, lamb covers more ground more quickly than beal, both laterally and in straight lines. watching beal he doesnt look as fluid. he moves like he has heavy feet, planting hard to change direction, which is why he was beat off the dribble regularly when he was matched up vs guards (he mostly guarded forwards in college) and why he doesnt change directions quickly with the ball. just watch him change directions, watch his recovery speed, watch when he has the ball and tries to change direction. he has no wiggle in his game and moves fairly deliberately. to me, lamb is the rangier athlete (just look at how much ground he covers with each move), with better straight line speed and lighter feet which aid in his ability to change direction.

I personally predicted on the Wizards board that Beal would post very strong athletic numbers in Chicago because his style of game sorta masks his physical ability. He glides and is efficient but he's routinely just quick enough to get by a guy or jumps just high enough to get a rebound or block a shot. That's because he's actually a strong, underrated athlete and his objective metrics bear that out.

"just enough" when the player has average to below average size and explosiveness, isnt just enough. imo, a player like that has to have a physical quality that helps them compensate for that, otherwise he's another oj mayo. if the combine results were all that mattered when evaluating a player's athleticism, then you'd figure that jimmer would have enough athleticism to play his game at the NBA level or that mayo's athleticism would be enough to make up for his size at the 2. how they look in games matters and to me. beal looks like an average athlete with very little wiggle to his game and not enough explosiveness to be a factor in 1 on 1 situations or when finishing at the rim. even if you were to argue that beal and lamb were equal athletes (which i don't agree with) lamb would still have those extra inches of range and reach.

I also don't understand why people insist on comparing Beal's efficiency numbers from last season to Lamb or Ross. He's a full development year behind both of those two and that's actually HUGE at their respective ages. You said it yourself Manual that Lamb improved a significant portion of his game from his freshman season to his sophomore year, and that's the type of development that happens after an individual gains experience at a given level and has time to make adjustments to his game to increase his effectiveness at said level. Beal showed tremendous improvement IN season as a freshman, and once he acclimated himself to the college game had very strong SEC and NCAA tournaments.

you can go ahead and compare their freshmen yr's statistically. my skepticism when it comes to the upside of beal has more to do with his physical attributes. even if he becomes a better ball-handler will it be enough for him to be a factor 1 on 1? if he speeds up his shot release, will he be able gain enough separation to get a clean look on the move? will he somehow be able to become a more explosive athlete so he won't be as reliant on ball screens and will finish better in traffic? i have reservations about all that and i think those issues would still exist in a yr's time.

this is not to say that i think beal is gonna be a bad player. despite all the criticisms i have of him i still think he's gonna be a solid player because he's so smart and is fundamentally sound. i just don't think he's as good as lamb is now and i don't think he has the upside of lamb either.

[DCsOwn]

^We disagree on the quality of athlete Beal is. I actually think your description of Beal applies to Lamb athletically sans the length comments, and one of the things I routinely saw watching Big East games was how easily people stayed in front of Lamb defensively. I didn't see much at all of the quickness you purport he has, and when he did get around players it had more to do with craftiness with the basketball than explosion. Lamb played a game against Georgetown in DC last season where multiple GU guards and forwards took turns guarding him and no one had an issue sticking him (Georgetown played some zone that game, but played a good amount of man.) Granted Georgetown has a very long group of forwards and guards, but even in games against other BE opposition, didn't explode to the rim or around his opposition with any regularity.

Lamb does have creativity with the ball that Beal lacks, but when I watched Beal he was a much more aggressive driver than Lamb, he was much more engaged defensively and stuck his nose in the paint and went for offensive and defensive rebounds and he was a much better, more creative and willing passer of the ball. He's also a more creative scorer than you give him credit for imo, and if he becomes the shooter most analysts predict and his late season surge suggest that he could be, I'd take him comfortably over Lamb going forward.

We'll see who's right down the line though I suppose.

Quality work by you in this thread defending your position btw.

[wackywabbit]

He's Nick Young 2.0.

You can quote me on that. Nick Young isn't a bad player, and is a decent value around the 12th pick of a draft.

[TheGoodDoctor]

He's Nick Young 2.0.

You can quote me on that. Nick Young isn't a bad player, and is a decent value around the 12th pick of a draft.

I don't want to carry a quote like this around for a year but let me just say...no he will be better and you can feel free to quote me on that

[Dr Positivity]

Young would be a star if he had Lamb's footspeed

[Ruzious]

Young would be a star if he had Lamb's footspeed

NY is every bit as athletic and long as Lamb - not to mention, he's stronger. NY has his moments when he looks like a star, but he's no better than good enough to lose with.

[Dr Positivity]

NY is too slow to get by his man and attack the basket. That's the main thing holding back his upside IMO

[mattg]

NY is too slow to get by his man and attack the basket. That's the main thing holding back his upside IMO

Not really. His shot selection and propensity to think he's Kobe is what holds him back. He's a very good athlete, he just plays stupid too much to be anything more than a spark off the bench.

[DMVleGeND]

I agree with Dr Positivity. NY is a pretty good athlete, but he plays with a high center of gravity, which really limits his quickness off the bounce.

Lamb and NY are similar, but I think Lamb's handle is slightly better.

[Knighthonor]

He's Nick Young 2.0.

You can quote me on that. Nick Young isn't a bad player, and is a decent value around the 12th pick of a draft.

I dont get that.

[bbms]

Prior to draft, I was a little biased by his Fiba U-19 performance, but I thought he would be a 6'5, 7'0 wings version of Kevin Durant. I thought he should go top5 easily. Athletic, long, score at will, good jumpshooter, etc... I thought he was 3rd in potential just behind Davis and Drummond.

I was looking forward for him joining Thunder, because I really liked him, but he looked poor when played for us. Really really poor. Played garbage time and still couldn't even find the ball. I also think Reggie Jackson and him couldn't find a groove(I really like Reggie Jackson too). No wonder he fall that much. Can't make an imediate impact(at least for a contender) at all.