Jabari vs Wiggins

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Re: Jabari vs Wiggins 

Post#16 » by ManualRam » Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:29 am

DMVleGeND wrote:
ManualRam wrote:what barnes also lacked that jabari doesn't is the ball skills and creativity to create that space or to take advantage of smothering D.
unlike barnes, if you play jabari for the shot he can make the defense pay because of his better ball-handling and passing ability. barnes could only dribble in straight lines, with his right hand and once he put the ball on the deck the blinders went up.


I think Parker's ball skills are overrated though. His ball-handling still isn't very good for a wing (DX says the same thing). He's not good at breaking his man down off the dribble, and plus he's a below-average athlete, so he has to settle for more outside shots than you'd like.

You've watched him more than me, but every time I've seen him on the national stage, I just don't see the hype. I've also made the Harrison Barnes comparison -- not in terms of playing style, but in terms of hype and questioning how they'll be able to adjust to the college game.


when a player is that big and rangy he doesnt need an amazing handle, especially if he has the jump shooting/shot-creating ability to be played honestly on the perimeter since all it takes is 1 or 2 dribbles to get into the lane if he gets his defender out of position. what is necessary though is for the player to have enough skill to counter. parker has that, barnes doesnt. although parker's handle is not amazing, i think it's better than wiggins' and MUCH better than barnes'.

barnes' lack of handle is his biggest drawback because if his defender just plays his shooting hand (he has NO weak hand), he doesnt have the necessary skill to counter that. all he could is force a contested jumpshot, try to get his defender up in the air with fakes or a 1 dribble step back. just look at the difference in fluidity b/t jabari and harrison. barnes' has that stiff upper body and he moves very mechanically. jabari is loose and fluid. he also has that hesitation in his game needed to set up his crosses, inside out dribbles, which he utilizes very well to get to spots on the floor or to set up his patented step back. just watch more of his videos and watch how he uses his hesitation and the threat of additional moves to keep his defender in his stance just enough so he can get off a clean jumper or a drive (great example here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp2RTXVwYc0&t=1m24s). because of his looseness and fluidity, he can link moves together as opposed to barnes who, on the rare occasion when he changes directions, gathers just enough to allow the defender to recover.

what makes him an even more of a threat off the bounce is his passing ability. you can't just set up walls and bring the help early or just play him for the drive/shot because he's a good passer and he plays at a pace where he can read the defense while on the move. if a guy like barnes put the ball on the deck and he gets momentum toward the hoop, he is more predictable because, not only is he not fluid and shifty, but he is not a good playmaker.


here are some examples
seamless right to left cross into a left hand drive ~:27
quick left, right left cross into an elbow jumper ~:38
inside out with his off-hand for another left hand drive ~1:09
stand up right to left, hesitation cross ~1:16
stand up hesitation with the off-hand for a baseline drive ~1:24
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Re: Jabari vs Wiggins 

Post#17 » by LeChosen1 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:39 am

ManualRam wrote:
DMVleGeND wrote:
ManualRam wrote:what barnes also lacked that jabari doesn't is the ball skills and creativity to create that space or to take advantage of smothering D.
unlike barnes, if you play jabari for the shot he can make the defense pay because of his better ball-handling and passing ability. barnes could only dribble in straight lines, with his right hand and once he put the ball on the deck the blinders went up.


I think Parker's ball skills are overrated though. His ball-handling still isn't very good for a wing (DX says the same thing). He's not good at breaking his man down off the dribble, and plus he's a below-average athlete, so he has to settle for more outside shots than you'd like.

You've watched him more than me, but every time I've seen him on the national stage, I just don't see the hype. I've also made the Harrison Barnes comparison -- not in terms of playing style, but in terms of hype and questioning how they'll be able to adjust to the college game.


when a player is that big and rangy he doesnt need an amazing handle, especially if he has the jump shooting/shot-creating ability to be played honestly on the perimeter since all it takes is 1 or 2 dribbles to get into the lane if he gets his defender out of position. what is necessary though is for the player to have enough skill to counter. parker has that, barnes doesnt. although parker's handle is not amazing, i think it's better than wiggins' and MUCH better than barnes'.

barnes' lack of handle is his biggest drawback because if his defender just plays his shooting hand (he has NO weak hand), he doesnt have the necessary skill to counter that. all he could is force a contested jumpshot, try to get his defender up in the air with fakes or a 1 dribble step back. just look at the difference in fluidity b/t jabari and harrison. barnes' has that stiff upper body and he moves very mechanically. jabari is loose and fluid. he also has that hesitation in his game needed to set up his crosses, inside out dribbles, which he utilizes very well to get to spots on the floor or to set up his patented step back. just watch more of his videos and watch how he uses his hesitation and the threat of additional moves to keep his defender in his stance just enough so he can get off a clean jumper or a drive (great example here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp2RTXVwYc0&t=1m24s). because of his looseness and fluidity, he can link moves together as opposed to barnes who, on the rare occasion when he changes directions, gathers just enough to allow the defender to recover.

what makes him an even more of a threat off the bounce is his passing ability. you can't just set up walls and bring the help early or just play him for the drive/shot because he's a good passer and he plays at a pace where he can read the defense while on the move. if a guy like barnes put the ball on the deck and he gets momentum toward the hoop, he is more predictable because, not only is he not fluid and shifty, but he is not a good playmaker.


here are some examples
seamless right to left cross into a left hand drive ~:27
quick left, right left cross into an elbow jumper ~:38
inside out with his off-hand for another left hand drive ~1:09
stand up right to left, hesitation cross ~1:16
stand up hesitation with the off-hand for a baseline drive ~1:24


Barnes looked the exact same, when he was in highschool. All we can do is wait and see what will happen when he dribbles against the best of the best.
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Re: Jabari vs Wiggins 

Post#18 » by ManualRam » Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:09 am

LeChosen1 wrote:
Barnes looked the exact same, when he was in highschool. All we can do is wait and see what will happen when he dribbles against the best of the best.

no, not really. not at all. barnes to this day has no wiggle or hesitation in his game. his game was triple threat, up fakes, reliance on body strength, straight line drives, high release and elevation to shoot in people's faces. he can't use his handle to freeze defenders like jabari.
he's not crafty or fluid like parker. you don't see barnes selling his crosses or inside outs with shoulder fakes. you dont see him turning fake crosses into pull ups because he doesnt really have a crossover to sell. you rarely even see barnes use his off-hand for anything other than to dribble in straight lines or escape dribbles for pull ups.
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Re: Jabari vs Wiggins 

Post#19 » by Choker » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:45 pm

I don't see the comparison myself too with Barnes. In any of Barnes' mixtapes I've never seen anything to indicate he could be a shot creator from mid range, which was why I found the Kobe comparisons utterly ridiculous (and yes people WERE comparing him to Kobe in high school).
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Re: Jabari vs Wiggins 

Post#20 » by Dr Positivity » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:19 pm

Very nice Nike Hoop summit footage of Wiggins here. Absolutely love getting NBA/NCAA esque camera footage on these guys



His athleticism looks extremely overrated to me. One of those players that's a good athlete and very smooth, but not scary explosive. Shabazz seems like he's the one with the crazy first step and explosiveness

OTOH his feel for the game looks scary impressive in this video. And he looks like he has high potential skill wise, his shots are looking good. So I'd guess he has a chance to be pretty elite - great athlete, great feel for the game, high skill potential. I don't see the whole "one of the best prospects since Lebron" type of hype though
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Re: Jabari vs Wiggins 

Post#21 » by Choker » Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:26 am

I liked that move at 7:52. He can explode in either direction when in triple threat. There are some players that can only explode to their strong side. Other than that he looked really raw in that video. Shaky handles and unpolished game, although I have to keep reminding myself he's only 17.
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Re: Jabari vs Wiggins 

Post#22 » by boogie-reke » Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:37 am

Extremely overrated? that's a stretch, cmon now.

Athletic ability isn't based solely on explosiveness and 1st step, which he still has at a pretty high level.
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Re: Jabari vs Wiggins 

Post#23 » by LeChosen1 » Mon Oct 1, 2012 10:31 pm

From that Video, Lebron was wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy ahead of Wiggins. His handles are shaky, he is more of a set shooter and he cant go left, hes good but im not seeing the Lebron comparisons
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Re: Jabari vs Wiggins 

Post#24 » by ManualRam » Mon Oct 1, 2012 10:38 pm

who's comparing wiggins to lebron?
they arent similar at all.
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Re: Jabari vs Wiggins 

Post#25 » by MagicFan32 » Tue Oct 2, 2012 11:49 am

Wiggins reminds me of Tmac. I think he could be the best prospect since Durant in 07, definitely a potential franchise changer
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Re: Jabari vs Wiggins 

Post#26 » by boogie-reke » Tue Oct 2, 2012 11:26 pm

I haven't seen Derozen in highschool tbh, but from youtube Wiggins seems around the same, just better.

Would gladly be corrected though, again, haven't seen Derozen at all in highschool other then youtube and it's mostly dunks etc there anyways.

But better Derozen fits more imo then putting such huge names like Lebron etc next to the kid, atleast right now from what I got to see out of him.
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Re: Jabari vs Wiggins 

Post#27 » by Choker » Mon Oct 8, 2012 9:23 pm

DeRozan would probably be a top tier athlete if he didn't have the lateral quicks and first step of a power forward. Wiggins from what I've seen has him beat easily in those two things while being very coordinated and bouncy.
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Re: Jabari vs Wiggins 

Post#28 » by MikeM » Tue Oct 9, 2012 5:48 pm

Gotta wait until next year to start comparisons IMO. So much can change from 17 to 18 years old, even height FFS.

In 2-3 months he could have a yo yo handle, who knows. He's so young still.
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Re: Jabari vs Wiggins 

Post#29 » by Fischella » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:44 am

Wiggins reminds of Vince Carter, Jabari, more Paul Pierce/Grant Hill
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Re: Jabari vs Wiggins 

Post#30 » by sisibilio » Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:28 pm

This is a no brainer.
The real debate should be Hezonja vs Wiggins. :wink:
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Re: Jabari vs Wiggins 

Post#31 » by Dr Positivity » Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:46 am

sisibilio wrote:This is a no brainer.
The real debate should be Hezonja vs Wiggins. :wink:


I was thinking Mario might be my 2nd favorite of the 3, but behind Jabari :wink:

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Re: Jabari vs Wiggins 

Post#32 » by Laowai » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:14 am

The reality is that if Wiggins had been available he would have went #1 in 2012 over Davis, #1 in 2013 and #1 in2014 draft. Right now he is a better prospect than Durant remember Odom was drafted #1 and was consensus #!. He is the best prospect since LBJ.
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Re: Jabari vs Wiggins 

Post#33 » by Dr Positivity » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:15 pm

Laowai wrote:The reality is that if Wiggins had been available he would have went #1 in 2012 over Davis, #1 in 2013 and #1 in2014 draft. Right now he is a better prospect than Durant remember Odom was drafted #1 and was consensus #!. He is the best prospect since LBJ.


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Re: Jabari vs Wiggins 

Post#34 » by EB2 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:58 am

We're definitely going to hear about the Wiggins vs. Parker argument for many years to come...
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Re: Jabari vs Wiggins 

Post#35 » by DMVleGeND » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:13 am

Laowai wrote:The reality is that if Wiggins had been available he would have went #1 in 2012 over Davis, #1 in 2013 and #1 in2014 draft. Right now he is a better prospect than Durant remember Odom was drafted #1 and was consensus #!. He is the best prospect since LBJ.


Hype overdrive. Can we watch these guys extensively before we reach to such massive conclusions? People were saying the same about Barnes in 2010, and they ended up getting burned for it.
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