Frank Kaminsky

[greenandgold]

It's so predictable. Kaminsky's going to end up getting drafted higher than a freshman center with actual potential like Myles Turner.

Turner's freshman year, as flawed as it was, is still another stratosphere compared to Kaminsky's non-entity of a freshman year.

Grade along the age curve, or face doom!

I think you are not taking into account that Frank plays on a Wisconsin team that very rarely plays Freshman in general. They are not Duke or Kentucky where they have no real upperclassmen with talent. Wisconsin is one of the last old school programs who values team play and veterans.

This guy you say can't play in the NBA I just watched absolutely tooling the top 2 picks in the draft over the span of the last 3 days. And while those guys have the upside to pass Kaminsky by, he is very clearly an NBA player.

It's also worth mentioning that for every Myles Turner that pans out, there are 5 or 6 that do not. So he is a much riskier pick than a proven talent like Kaminsky.

I understand Wisconsin doesn't have the kind of program that attracts the kind of freshman that have enough talent to play in the NCAA immediately. That's why they took the 19 year old Kaminsky and sat his ass on the bench. DNP-lack of talent.

Dekker, on the other hand, is an exception to the usual Wisconsin mode of development. Productive during his freshman and sophomore years (the stat nerds love his projection in the NBA). This is the guy who deserves to go in the lottery.

[Johnlac1]

I would love for him to fall to the Bucks. It would be awesome to replace ZaZa's FGA with Franks.

I also think getting into a NBA weight & training program could do wonders for him...Doesn't look like he has every lifted a weight.

While Frank overall is clearly superior to Zaza in athleticism and skills other than passing, Zaza is strong as a bull. He can actually prevent many strong centers from getting position low, and the picks he sets are bonejarring. That's something Frank can't do (yet) and is crucial to him playing center.

[M-C-G]

I would love for him to fall to the Bucks. It would be awesome to replace ZaZa's FGA with Franks.

I also think getting into a NBA weight & training program could do wonders for him...Doesn't look like he has every lifted a weight.

While Frank overall is clearly superior to Zaza in athleticism and skills other than passing, Zaza is strong as a bull. He can actually prevent many strong centers from getting position low, and the picks he sets are bonejarring. That's something Frank can't do (yet) and is crucial to him playing center.

I do not disagree at all...I'm not saying he will be better all around on day 1, but the tools are there to fit wonderfully in our system.

How fun would a line up of Giannis, Midds, Parker, Frank, Henson look?

[Notanoob]

I understand Wisconsin doesn't have the kind of program that attracts the kind of freshman that have enough talent to play in the NCAA immediately. That's why they took the 19 year old Kaminsky and sat his ass on the bench. DNP-lack of talent.

Dekker, on the other hand, is an exception to the usual Wisconsin mode of development. Productive during his freshman and sophomore years (the stat nerds love his projection in the NBA). This is the guy who deserves to go in the lottery.

Stats nerd here, the stats hate Dekker. He looks bad by nearly every measure. Kaminsky doesn't look like a stud, just a 3rd big, but he looks much better than Dekker does. Beats him in steals, blocks, A/TO, FTr, 3P%, DRBs...

[sicko]

Ryan Anderson 2.0 which is really not all that bad. He is not going to be a STAR or anything like that but potentially a decent Offensive Role Player

[Cammo101]

He is going to be a lotto pick, his floor is Houstons pick.

The fit with him next to Howard is absolutely perfect.

[Cammo101]

I understand Wisconsin doesn't have the kind of program that attracts the kind of freshman that have enough talent to play in the NCAA immediately. That's why they took the 19 year old Kaminsky and sat his ass on the bench. DNP-lack of talent.

Dekker, on the other hand, is an exception to the usual Wisconsin mode of development. Productive during his freshman and sophomore years (the stat nerds love his projection in the NBA). This is the guy who deserves to go in the lottery.

It's funny, because I by and large usually agree with your reasoning more often than not. Most guys who come on as late bloomers struggle in the NBA. But, at a certain point you have to just use your eyes and see what is in front you, because there are no hard fast rules that are 100%. You can't take a certain metric, decide it's all encompassing, and then bury your head in the sand. Well, you can, but it will make you wrong quite a bit.

Kaminsky is a wildly skilled guy who fills a very vogue role in the NBA right now (stretch 4). That is plain to see if you are just willing to look. The eye test should be the main thing you use, and then use stuff like advanced stats and outliers in conjuction with it, not instead of it.

[King Ken]

I would love for him to fall to the Bucks. It would be awesome to replace ZaZa's FGA with Franks.

I also think getting into a NBA weight & training program could do wonders for him...Doesn't look like he has every lifted a weight.

While Frank overall is clearly superior to Zaza in athleticism and skills other than passing, Zaza is strong as a bull. He can actually prevent many strong centers from getting position low, and the picks he sets are bonejarring. That's something Frank can't do (yet) and is crucial to him playing center.

I don't see Frank ever getting strong enough to play center consistely in the NBA

[M-C-G]

I would love for him to fall to the Bucks. It would be awesome to replace ZaZa's FGA with Franks.

I also think getting into a NBA weight & training program could do wonders for him...Doesn't look like he has every lifted a weight.

While Frank overall is clearly superior to Zaza in athleticism and skills other than passing, Zaza is strong as a bull. He can actually prevent many strong centers from getting position low, and the picks he sets are bonejarring. That's something Frank can't do (yet) and is crucial to him playing center.

I don't see Frank ever getting strong enough to play center consistely in the NBA

While I get were you are coming from, Henson has found ways to play center, and he had to be one of the weakest players to enter the league. If Frank was strong, he'd probably be going a lot higher, but it is one of those flaws that at least has the possibility of being solved.

[King Ken]

While Frank overall is clearly superior to Zaza in athleticism and skills other than passing, Zaza is strong as a bull. He can actually prevent many strong centers from getting position low, and the picks he sets are bonejarring. That's something Frank can't do (yet) and is crucial to him playing center.

I don't see Frank ever getting strong enough to play center consistely in the NBA

While I get were you are coming from, Henson has found ways to play center, and he had to be one of the weakest players to enter the league. If Frank was strong, he'd probably be going a lot higher, but it is one of those flaws that at least has the possibility of being solved.

Henson isn't consistent at the position and he's a rim protector. They can afford to be smaller because their overall defensive impact. Even then, he's more effective as a PF.

[M-C-G]

Henson isn't consistent at the position and he's a rim protector. They can afford to be smaller because their overall defensive impact. Even then, he's more effective as a PF.

Henson is completely ineffective at PF, trust me, I've watched almost every game of his pro career. And I wouldn't call Henson consistent by any means, but my point is that I have seen him do it for stretches of games at center.

Frank's BBIQ along with our system and some weight training would allow him to play center.

[King Ken]

Henson isn't consistent at the position and he's a rim protector. They can afford to be smaller because their overall defensive impact. Even then, he's more effective as a PF.

Henson is completely ineffective at PF, trust me, I've watched almost every game of his pro career. And I wouldn't call Henson consistent by any means, but my point is that I have seen him do it for stretches of games at center.

Frank's BBIQ along with our system and some weight training would allow him to play center.

I was simply going off of stats and the times I saw him play. Either way, Henson's stats at C have been inconsistent to say the least. Frank needs about 15-20 pounds of bulk. That's a lot harder to gain with his narrow frame.

[Johnlac1]

I understand Wisconsin doesn't have the kind of program that attracts the kind of freshman that have enough talent to play in the NCAA immediately. That's why they took the 19 year old Kaminsky and sat his ass on the bench. DNP-lack of talent.

Dekker, on the other hand, is an exception to the usual Wisconsin mode of development. Productive during his freshman and sophomore years (the stat nerds love his projection in the NBA). This is the guy who deserves to go in the lottery.

It's funny, because I by and large usually agree with your reasoning more often than not. Most guys who come on as late bloomers struggle in the NBA. But, at a certain point you have to just use your eyes and see what is in front you, because there are no hard fast rules that are 100%. You can't take a certain metric, decide it's all encompassing, and then bury your head in the sand. Well, you can, but it will make you wrong quite a bit.

Kaminsky is a wildly skilled guy who fills a very vogue role in the NBA right now (stretch 4). That is plain to see if you are just willing to look. The eye test should be the main thing you use, and then use stuff like advanced stats and outliers in conjuction with it, not instead of it.

Before the start of the 80s freshmen were ineligible at div I schools. That's because many freshmen were either physically unprepared or lacked the skills to play varsity ball or both. Undoubtedly, some players like Alcindor, Walton, Maravich, and many others would have been big stars their freshmen years.
But there are still a number of freshmen who are thrown to the wolves their first year and really struggle. Iowa's Adam Woodbury was totally overwhelmed most of his freshman year. While he'll probably never go pro (at least in the NBA) he's made enormous improvement in two years time.
Not every player is ready their freshmen year. And after watching college ball for more than fifty years I can attest to the tremendous improvement many players make from their first year to their junior or senior year. Frank was one of those players.
Bill Laimbeer had a very undistinguished career at Notre Dame. Few thought he'd ever make the pros much less be a good pro.
Those "experts" were wrong.
Kaminsky is a better athlete than Laimbeer and had a far more acclaimed college career. But it took Frank several years to develop. What's wrong with letting some players develop by staying in college? Nothing.

[M-C-G]

Henson isn't consistent at the position and he's a rim protector. They can afford to be smaller because their overall defensive impact. Even then, he's more effective as a PF.

Henson is completely ineffective at PF, trust me, I've watched almost every game of his pro career. And I wouldn't call Henson consistent by any means, but my point is that I have seen him do it for stretches of games at center.

Frank's BBIQ along with our system and some weight training would allow him to play center.

I was simply going off of stats and the times I saw him play. Either way, Henson's stats at C have been inconsistent to say the least. Frank needs about 15-20 pounds of bulk. That's a lot harder to gain with his narrow frame.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it will be easy by any means. But he does at least have a lower body that can put on some muscle, and I honestly don't think he has ever spent much time in the weight room (could be wrong). So just having the NBA weight training program where he has to do that as part of his job should help with that.

[Johnlac1]

I understand Wisconsin doesn't have the kind of program that attracts the kind of freshman that have enough talent to play in the NCAA immediately. That's why they took the 19 year old Kaminsky and sat his ass on the bench. DNP-lack of talent.

Dekker, on the other hand, is an exception to the usual Wisconsin mode of development. Productive during his freshman and sophomore years (the stat nerds love his projection in the NBA). This is the guy who deserves to go in the lottery.

Stats nerd here, the stats hate Dekker. He looks bad by nearly every measure. Kaminsky doesn't look like a stud, just a 3rd big, but he looks much better than Dekker does. Beats him in steals, blocks, A/TO, FTr, 3P%, DRBs...

Wisconsin's front line was the best in their history. They had three strong rebounders in Kaminsky, Dekker, and Hayes.
And given Wisconsin's slow pace of play there wasn't the volume of missed shots that other schools get.
And Wisconsin also plays a defense that promotes position defense and discourages steal attempts. Any player going for a steal and missing as the man he was guarding scored found himself a spot on the bench in short order.
In other words, if Dekker (or the other Badger players) were on teams with a faster pace of play, their stats would look different. But for the record, Dekker was the second best player on one of the top four or five teams in the country. He had excellent games in the tournament against the top schools but fell down his last game. I think the pros will look at his total history and not just one subpar game.

[Notanoob]

I understand Wisconsin doesn't have the kind of program that attracts the kind of freshman that have enough talent to play in the NCAA immediately. That's why they took the 19 year old Kaminsky and sat his ass on the bench. DNP-lack of talent.

Dekker, on the other hand, is an exception to the usual Wisconsin mode of development. Productive during his freshman and sophomore years (the stat nerds love his projection in the NBA). This is the guy who deserves to go in the lottery.

Stats nerd here, the stats hate Dekker. He looks bad by nearly every measure. Kaminsky doesn't look like a stud, just a 3rd big, but he looks much better than Dekker does. Beats him in steals, blocks, A/TO, FTr, 3P%, DRBs...

Wisconsin's front line was the best in their history. They had three strong rebounders in Kaminsky, Dekker, and Hayes.
And given Wisconsin's slow pace of play there wasn't the volume of missed shots that other schools get.
And Wisconsin also plays a defense that promotes position defense and discourages steal attempts. Any player going for a steal and missing as the man he was guarding scored found himself a spot on the bench in short order.
In other words, if Dekker (or the other Badger players) were on teams with a faster pace of play, their stats would look different. But for the record, Dekker was the second best player on one of the top four or five teams in the country. He had excellent games in the tournament against the top schools but fell down his last game. I think the pros will look at his total history and not just one subpar game.

All of hist numbers are adjusted for pace. And with regards to the argument about steals, the simple reality is that legit NBA guys pick up steals regardless of team system. UM plays a conservative, foul-free defense too but Mitch McGary still had an absurd steal rate, while Trey Burke had a weak one. On his own team, both Hayes and Kaminsky has much better steal and block rates.

My posts have been about his whole season, not a reaction to the title game. I didn't realize that he had a poor game, I was more focused on how little Okafor produced.

[Curmudgeon]

Kaminsky is Kelly Olynyk without Olynyk's handle or passing ability. But Kaminsky will be a little better defensively on the ball.

[Cammo101]

Kaminsky is Kelly Olynyk without Olynyk's handle or passing ability. But Kaminsky will be a little better defensively on the ball.

This is a lazy comparison to me. Their style is pretty different, they just both happen to be white 7 footers with offensive skill.

[Kevin Willis]

Kaminsky is a big stretch 4 like Bargnani and Aldridge. He actually might end up with a better career than Bargnani. Pair him up with a stay at home C and he's fine.

Howard
HIbbert
Gobert
Drummond
Mozgov
Noah
Jordan
Bogut

He's not going to start anyways unless there are injuries anyways but he can fill in the Spencer Hawes role.

[Curmudgeon]

Kaminsky is Kelly Olynyk without Olynyk's handle or passing ability. But Kaminsky will be a little better defensively on the ball.

This is a lazy comparison to me. Their style is pretty different, they just both happen to be white 7 footers with offensive skill.

They are both stretch 4's who are or will be defensively challenged in the NBA. If you watched Olynyk when he was at Gonzaga, I think you would see a player closer to Kaminsky.