The Great Debate: The College Wings - Oubre, Johnson, Winslow

Powe-Fessional · Post #1 » by **Powe-Fessional** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:43 pm

I posted this over in our Celtics forum. Thought it might be useful here as well. Sorry if it's heavy on Celtics references. I wrote it in that scope, but I think the discussion is a good one and the discussions that can be built off it as well. Other analysis is welcome, as always. I apologize how long this is, but I don't really do anything half-assed.

Here we go....

So Fidel Sarcasmo challenged someone to look closer into "Which do you prefer: Justice Winslow, Stanley Johnson, or Kelly Oubre?", and because I think the Celtics could absolutely end up with one of these guys I took it upon myself to try and get a better understanding of which guy Boston should target.

Here's what's going to happen: For each player I took two games that I could find on YouTube at different points in the year (to hopefully see some growth), but the problem is YouTube doesn't have all of the games available. I wanted to make sure everyone on the board could see what I see, and we can use the same footage to judge what we like and don't like. I will discuss strengths and weaknesses that I presently see, what "x" player could turn into with the proper coaching, an idea where I would select them, clips of "x" player throughout the game followed by my notes about a particular play (much like Mike Schmitz over at DX). The overall idea is to get a general sense of where to rank everyone in the grand scheme of things. I definitely have a much clearer idea of what these guys can bring to the table and at the end will give my explanation of who I would chose and why.

Justise Winslow:
6'6"/6'10" Wing/229 lbs according to TEAM USA
Stats: 10.7 ppg, 4.5 boards, 1.8 assists, 0.9 steals 0.6 blocks 1.5 TO, 27 min, 43/37/58 (per game averages)
15.7, 6.6, 2.7, 1.3, 0.9, 2.4 (per 40 averages)

Overview:
The biggest thing I love about Winslow is his non-stop motor. It's one of the two things he does better than either Oubre or Johnson. While I was watching both games there was never a point where I sat and asked myself, "Is he really giving it his all here?", and that's important to me. I want guys that WANT to play basketball and are WILLING to do the little things. I think it's part of his character and I also think his coaching along the way (Coach K at Duke, Billy Donovan on Team USA, whoever his HS coach was) has clearly gotten to him. If you actually watch all the games I am going to provide for you, you'll notice that Winslow, much like Smart, never stops running, never takes plays off.

Guy already has an NBA-ready body at 6'6" and 229 (his body-type comp is Kawhi, who was 6'7" and 225 at San Diego State). He has a quick first step which he'll use to get by guys from time-to-time, but his overall speed helps his transition game a lot. This is a guy that I think would fit in very well in Stevens' "pace-and-space" mantra if he's able to improve that jumpshot. You can easily picture him with Smart, Zeller, Bradley/Young getting out into the open floor and taking advantage of odd-man opportunities. Picture Smart bringing the ball up with Young and Winslow on either side, Zeller rim-running, and KO trailing. Pretty deadly five if you ask me.

Yes, his jumpshot is a mess. He has too many moving parts, and much like Smart was in college Winslow often finds himself off-balanced and finishing his jumpshot leaning right or left. With the improvements Smart has made I'd be willing to bet that Winslow could make the same improvements based off his motor. Shot selection is rarely an issue because he doesn't shoot a lot. Takes a lot of good shots.

As a lot of you have pointed out, and I fell victim to this while I was watching and attempting to analyze, Duke's offense is not catered to Justise. They try to get Okafor as many touches inside as possible, and none of us can really blame them. They also have a bunch of other guys, veteran guys, that K and seemingly everyone else on the team trust more than the freshman Winslow. What is going to be interesting, and I'm sure I'll follow it, is what happens to Winslow's offensive production with Sulaimon now out.

Offensively:
First thing I'll say about Justise is he surprisingly has better vision than I thought. You will see in a couple of the following clips I have marked that he's more than capable of passing out of a double team, making a pocket pass in PnR situations, etc. He knows how to move the ball in Duke's offensive sets, and is a willing passer not a ball-stopper (again important for the Celtics offense which is near the tops in the NBA in sharing the basketball). His speed adds to this, making him already keen at driving-and-kicking.
His non-stop motor really helps keep offensive possessions alive. He's almost always around the offensive glass and will go up with the trees to try and snare a rebound. His length, girth and athleticism helps him compete on both ends of the floor in terms of rebounding.

Disclaimer: none of these guys know what to do without the ball in their hands. They float around a lot, and because Justise plays in a system that focuses on getting the ball into the post as much as possible, Winslow seems to float the most. I'm not sure if it's because he actually has no idea what to do or it's because he's on the complete opposite corner and isn't a factor in the play.
His jumpshot needs work, as I addressed above. But in terms of getting to the rim, he has an elite first step, has good body control, and uses his size to try and get through guys. It's one of my favorite things about him. Winslow not only has the speed to get by guys, like Oubre, but he also has the body to overpower smaller wings and guards that might pick him up on switches, like Johnson. He's not much of a mid-range shooter. He either drives to the basket or takes a three.

Defensively:
He is the best defender of the group, and IMHO it's not even close. Stanley Johnson might be almost equal in terms of on-ball defense, but no one is even close to how good of an off-ball and team defender Winslow is. My favorite thing about Winslow is that he will actually play guys differently from possession to possession to keep them guessing. Sometimes he'll play you close to take away a drive, but then a couple possessions later he'll play a little more off that same player, allow the player to drive and pick his pocket.

He has a great defensive stance, and moves comfortably in all directions (up, down, side-to-side). You won't see anyone try and take him in ISO situations because it's almost impossible to get by him without any help. His muscular frame and his motor helps him fight through screens, much like Smart.

In terms of off-ball defense, you'll notice that he will always have an eye on the ball and a hand feeling where his defender is. Rarely does someone make a cut and shake Justise, and the best part is even when people do try and make cuts to the basket he's stride-for-stride with his assignment most of the time and never loses track of the ball. This also helps with his team defense. Because of his overall court awareness he's able to time his help defense perfectly, but then has the close-out speed to get back to his original assignment.

CLIPS!

11-21-14 v Temple at the Barclay's Center https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FONCmhBYcM8 (FULL GAME LINK)
Stats: 4/8 from field, 1/4 from 3, 6/9 from FT, 4 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 steal, 1 TO, 15 points

21:30 http://youtu.be/FONCmhBYcM8?t=21m30s- good crossover move in ISO, finishes through contact, watch through Temple's possession to see how that play energized him on D

22:22 http://youtu.be/FONCmhBYcM8?t=22m22s - bad transition offense by everyone, too congested, lack of chemistry, hard to tell if Okafor or Winslow is in wrong spot, but I'll say Justise. He got hurt because of it.

29:47 http://youtu.be/FONCmhBYcM8?t=29m47s - really good on and off-ball defense here, always knows where his man is and where the ball is, non-stop motor, good close-out speed, grabs board and gets out in TRAN, finishes despite balance, continue through to see more good D on Temple's next possession.

32:10 http://youtu.be/FONCmhBYcM8?t=32m10s - nice little drive-and-kick here, gets defender to sort of fall for shot fake, gets by his man, kicks out to wide open 3.

32:50 http://youtu.be/FONCmhBYcM8?t=32m50s - takes charge, watch through to see montage of plays by Winslow in slo-mo.

33:35 http://youtu.be/FONCmhBYcM8?t=33m55s - great drive and pass to Okafor for the finish

12-3-14 v Wisconsin at Wisconsin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QaQKEwoHME (FULL GAME LINK)
Stats: 2/6 from field, 1/3 from 3, 0 FT, 5 boards, 3 assists, 1 steal, 4 TO's, 5 points in 32 min

4:10 http://youtu.be/5QaQKEwoHME?t=4m10s - example of a sloppy jumper, bad form - feet aren't set, too many moving pieces, brick layer. Happens A LOT

11:34 http://youtu.be/5QaQKEwoHME?t=11m34s - good vision with the pass out of the double team. Nice quick decision.

12:30 http://youtu.be/5QaQKEwoHME?t=12m30s - sloppy play, he gets in the way of the play running. I don't think it's by design.

12:50 http://youtu.be/5QaQKEwoHME?t=12m50s - good rebound in traffic, good push, tries to make a move and is cut off, good awareness to find open shooter.

16:05 http://youtu.be/5QaQKEwoHME?t=16m5s - good use of quick hands and deep stance, exceptional footwork, great motor

17:55 http://youtu.be/5QaQKEwoHME?t=17m55s - good use of hands again, guy can't get by him, good stance, great footwork, good motor, nice heads up pass to Plumlee

28:40 http://youtu.be/5QaQKEwoHME?t=28m40s - strong take, nice fake, good first step, didn't finish, needs a little softer touch.

Final Analysis:
Out of the three guys, I'm taking Winslow last somewhere in the teens (pending on who you've already selected - no need to get two of these guys). Good quickness, average-to-slighty-above-average handle, great athleticism, good in the open floor, great motor, and the best defender arguably in the class (definitely the best amongst the three wings).

Stanley Johnson:
6'6.75"/6'11" wing/243 lbs
Stats: 14.5, 7.0, 1.8, 1.5, 0.3, 2.4, 48/39/73 on 29 minutes (per game averages)
20.2, 14.7, 2.5, 2.1, 0.4, 3.3 (per 40 averages)

Overview:
Stanley Johnson is the most complete wing of the three we are about to discuss, no questions asked. He already has the NBA frame - he's bigger than Justise all the way around - and he knows how to use that frame against smaller defenders. His bigger wingspan frustrates guys that try to get by him and shoot over the top of him, and his girth hinders people from trying to be physical with him. The idea of him getting bigger somehow is kind of insane to me, but I guess he could put on more muscle and have a Miami Heat days LeBron-type body, although not nearly as athletic.

This kid is a flat out winner. Played at Mater Dei and won four state titles while he was there (started every game from sophomore year on), and that's big for me. Learning how to win is part of a player's development, and you can tell this kid really hates losing (he was 70-0 his last TWO YEARS in HS). He found his way onto Team USA and in his last stint averaged 14 points, 5.4 rebounds, and 1 assist in five games. He also collected 11 steals in those five games.

It's really hard at points to see all of the tools Johnson has because the offense he plays in IS THE WORST IN COLLEGE BASKETBALL (okay, maybe it's not THE worst but it hurts to watch - too much iso, little ball or player movement). He gives me a Paul Pierce type of vibe without the vision (even though his high school tape shows he has it). The Pierce comparison comes because it seems like he can score in a variety of ways. He's crafty with his shot and it's not nearly as ugly as Winslow's. Has a tendency to drop the ball down below his knees on his jumper (hitch), but overall it's good. Could be more refined.

Defensively he has tons of potential, but his motor kind of gets in the way. When he wants to be he can be a great on-ball defender, but often times he'll drift in-and-out of games. His motor on the defensive side is questionable, but as you'll see in some of the clips he can really be a menace of the defensive side with the ability to guard all 2's and 3's, maybe some 4's, and maybe some 1's.

Offensively:
I'm waiting for the day where I see him have more than 3 assists (he's done it once - 5 v Oregon) because the vision I saw of him in Mater Dei makes me think he could end up being a Paul Pierce/last year's Lance Stevenson on the offensive end. I'll be honest, Stanley was my favorite prospect in high school because of his ability to do it all. I saw point-forward potential, and maybe I'm just grasping at thin air. Maybe he was only able to do those things against lesser competition. Time will tell, I guess.

He has a non-stop motor offensively. I really believe he just wants to be on offense, and will do anything he can to keep the ball down on that end (as you will see the latter part of this statement is pretty much fact). He is so active on the offensive boards; it's actually quite refreshing. He has a quick jump like Melo does (obviously, not as good) and uses it to get multiple looks at the rim on those offensive rebound opportunities. Offensive rebounds, along with his ability to get by defenders, leads to a lot of free throw opportunities. Along those lines, it's actually quite interesting how he gets by everyone. He doesn't have elite speed (worst of the three) but yet with smarts and ball fakes is able to get by.

He has a pretty solid jumper, but it could use some work. He has kind of a weird release, but the ball does find its way into the basket and it doesn't roll around the rim, which indicates bad spin on the ball (my biggest issue was always keeping my elbow locked inside my frame - wouldn't have perfect backspin). He is definitely comfortable to NBA three-point range and is more than comfortable shooting the three.

He is the second best shooter of the group, but where he distances himself from the other two is his in-between game (Justise has zero, Oubre has flashes). Johnson has a great feel inside the arc, and most importantly knows exactly when to pull up on his drives to the basket. Instead of barreling in and potentially getting called for the charge, he'll take a little right-handed floater in the lane, demonstrating his high IQ. He has the speed to get by some guys and some moves and strength to get by the others. He never looks completely overmatched on that end (rarely looks overmatched). He looks like he's in control most of the time and he has a solid handle for a guy that size and that young.

Again, I have no idea how good he is off the ball, but I'd bet he needs to learn. Sean Miller's offense is terrible. No creativity whatsoever. No movement, tons of isolation, and when all goes bad dump it into the post because everyone says it's a more efficient shot. He spends a lot of time floating on the perimeter when he knows he's not getting the ball. Again, what's refreshing is when the shot goes up he will try and go and get it.

Defensively:

Most of the time he is a terrific on-ball defender. In isolation situations I'd argue he's almost every-bit as good as Winslow. He has great footwork and keeps guys in front of him despite his lack of mobility (in comparison to Winslow). He has all the tools to be a terrific defender and the idea of him and Smart together, and Bradley as well, terrorizing everyone on the perimeter is fun to think about (if you can't have good interior defense, then don't let the ball get in there by having premiere perimeter defenders all over the floor - sort of kidding).

He is a very good defensive rebounder and at times will have Sullinger-esque instincts on that end, meaning he will get to the spot and box out his assignment before the ball is even in the air. His wide frame allows him to box out guys that are bigger than him, and because he has good positioning the majority of the time it's not too farfetched to think he could pick up a couple of cheap push-in-the-back calls.

Two problems defensively: his motor and his off-ball skills, and I think they're related. A lot of the times Johnson will get caught ball-watching and he'll lose his man to back door cuts. Problem is he doesn't have the foot speed to catch up to some of his assignments and he allows a net positive play for the other team (points or assists). If he was always in-tune to the game I don't think that would happen as much. He also allows his hands to drop (Hand down, man down). One thing I will say is once his offense gets going, his defense gets turned up a notch and that's a lot of fun.

CLIPS!

11-26-14 - Arizona v San Diego State at Maui Invitational https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew3TNdkrBjs (FULL GAME LINK)
Stats: 4/14 FG, 1/1 3PT, 9/10 FT, 9 rebounds, 1 assist, 3 steals, 1 block, 2 TO, 18 points in 37 min

9:29 http://youtu.be/ew3TNdkrBjs?t=9m25s - Good recognition his defender was lax, took the space available, way to pull up as the double comes, nice touch, dribble is contained

14:45 http://youtu.be/ew3TNdkrBjs?t=14m45s - Uses size to get position and fend defender off, uses one hand for the nice soft tip in. Continue through to watch him try and fight through screen. Good recovery speed, hand in defender's face, but better shot. Keep watching - he gets ball back, sees his defender overplay him, spins towards baseline (great feel and flow), good shot just missed it. Fights to get another opportunity (motor), passes out of double again

22:55 http://youtu.be/ew3TNdkrBjs?t=22m55s- Nice shake of defender, gets shot blocked (should have passed it), hustles after rebound, gets spot in corner and buries the 3

36:27 http://youtu.be/ew3TNdkrBjs?t=36m27s- Good push, uses crossovers to keep defender off-balance, GREAT finish

38:11 http://youtu.be/ew3TNdkrBjs?t=38m11s - GREAT motor, goes after the rebound with 4 Aztecs, uses quick jump (a la Melo) to get multiple opportunities, doesn't finish but love the effort

49:47 http://youtu.be/ew3TNdkrBjs?t=49m47s- Bad help, hands down, where's the effort?

55:30 http://youtu.be/ew3TNdkrBjs?t=55m30s- Good steal, good strong take, could have passed it for easy 2, but got to the line. Just keep watching for more outstanding defense after FT's. LOVE the emotion there.

1:03:50 http://youtu.be/ew3TNdkrBjs?t=1h3m50s - Very, very, nice. Got back in transition, helped out on defense. Defense intensity way up in second half of this game.

1-22-15 Arizona v Stanford at Stanford https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79pxP87YEs4 (FULL GAME LINK)
Stats: 7/11 FG, 2/4 3PT, 3/4 FT, 7 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 block, 3 TO, 19 points in 28 min

3:20 http://youtu.be/79pxP87YEs4?t=3m20s - Fights through tough screen, able to close out and get finger tip on ball for block, good motor
3:43 http://youtu.be/79pxP87YEs4?t=3m43s - Good take, right time to pull up, have to make that though, good touch but could have been better, shouldn't have been O-foul (FLOP)

14:00 http://youtu.be/79pxP87YEs4?t=14m00s - Use size and good dribble moves to get inside, loses handle briefly but stays with it, tough finish

18:33 http://youtu.be/79pxP87YEs4?t=18m33s- Tries to fill space on the floor, good attack, smartly passes out of double to get assist

41:50 http://youtu.be/79pxP87YEs4?t=41m50s- DEEP 3, good looking shot too, stepped right into it, still had 17 seconds left on clock, good confident shot

49:10 http://youtu.be/79pxP87YEs4?t=49m10s - Good PnR sequence, would have been a little better if he could have drawn Stanford's center a little bit further away from basket, could have been a higher bounce pass, but I'm nitpicking

51:35 http://youtu.be/79pxP87YEs4?t=51m35s - Might be the best ball movement I've seen from Zona this year, good ball fake by SJ, could have drove, buried 3 instead. Confident.

54:40 http://youtu.be/79pxP87YEs4?t=54m40s - Good hard push, but you gotta make that shot if you shoot it with 28 seconds on shot clock, flat shot but he was square to the basket

55:25 http://youtu.be/79pxP87YEs4?t=55m25s - Fights through double screens (watching Smart could help him more), bad help D by teammates (released too soon), tough for SJ to get back to the play

55:50 http://youtu.be/79pxP87YEs4?t=55m50s- Good close out speed, wish he took a different angle, but the hustle was good, slips

1:02:27 http://youtu.be/79pxP87YEs4?t=1h2m27s - Tough shot in traffic, good use of first screen, nice inside fake to get by next guy, pulls up at right time

1:03:25 http://youtu.be/79pxP87YEs4?t=1h3m25s- Smart D, denies assignment middle of floor, forces assignment baseline towards help D, steps out of bounds. Follow through for Zona O possession: SJ could have taken 3, but knows help D is going to go by him, drives, sees help defense kicks it out to open shooter, one more pass (!!!)

1:08:00 http://youtu.be/79pxP87YEs4?t=1h8m - Nice pass to shooter in rhythm, gets offensive board (motor) and nice use of glass
1:13:00 http://youtu.be/79pxP87YEs4?t=1h13m- Good, strong take, sees gap in zone and uses it to his advantage

1:16:50 http://youtu.be/79pxP87YEs4?t=1h15m50s - Loses handle a couple of times, but stays with it, has to learn how to keep the ball closer to his body when he attacks, but a really tough shot and nice strong finish

Final Analysis: Stanley Johnson was my favorite player out of this freshman class coming into this year. The only disappointment for me is his assist numbers. I think they could be higher. That problem could be directly related to the awful offensive system he plays in. Great offensive instincts, great motor on that end of the floor, has the tools to be a ++ defender, and is the most polished overall of these guys. I'd absolutely take him in the top-7 picks and feel great about it. If he can tighten his handle and play team defense like I think he can he'll be one of the better players in the class.

Kelly Oubre:
6'7"/7'1.5" wing/199 lbs (Nike Skills Academy)
Stats: 8.2 points, 4.7 boards, 1.0 dimes, 1.0 steals, 0.2 blocks, 1.0 TO's, 44%/35%/66% in 18.8 min (per game averages)
17.4, 10.1, 2.1, 2.2, 0.5, 2.2 (per 40 averages)

Overview:

Kelly Oubre is the most tantalizing of the three college wings, and I won't lie I have fallen in love with his potential. It's really hard to lock down my favorite thing about him, but I guess I'll start with his speed. I have watched a lot of Oubre (mainly because he's the biggest mystery of the three) and I don't think I've seen him full speed. I don't mean for that to be a knock on him (although his motor at times is questionable). His long strides make it easy for him to gain ground on close outs, to get ahead of the offense in the open floor, etc, so he really doesn't need to go full speed. I'll elaborate more on that later, but in a foot race, I don't think many prospects could beat him baseline to baseline. I believe this could be his biggest attribute when it comes to the NBA. Combine that with his elite length and you could have fun envisioning what he could be.

According to, well, everyone, Oubre didn't get a lot of time early in the year because Bill Self didn't like his effort during practice and during games (which should be a red flag for everyone). Self, like Stevens, believes playing time needs to be earned, not given out. Seems like Oubre's effort has increased, which has resulted in uptick in playing time. Took him until mid-December to log 20 minutes, and he rewarded Self with a 23 point effort. Since that point, his production has been solid, but sometimes inconsistent. He has the lowest motor of the three (which hopefully would change when he interacts with Marcus Smart).

Offensively, his shooting stroke will remind a lot of you of James Young (and it's not just because he's a lefty). Very quick release, smooth stroke with good mechanics, gets square to the basket, and is most of the time balanced from the jump all the way through the follow through. He's without a doubt the best pure shooter in this group, and if you gave him an empty gym might be the best in the draft. He'll make his mark offensively in the NBA first as a shooter, and with some development can turn into an offensive force.

There are times defensively where he can be scary. His length alone will frustrate guys on the perimeter, and he moves well laterally to keep guys in front. His weight would hurt him in the NBA right now, but when he fills out (see Jerami Grant before and after pictures as an example) he could be a real problem defensively. He'll be able to stay with quicker guards because of his lateral speed, and will be able to cover most (if not all) 3's in the NBA when he does fill out. But he is not as versatile of a defender as Justise and Stanley. I think he'd have a tough time covering 4's because of his weight. They would be able to back him down on the blocks, although his length could be an issue for them (his wingspan is only two inches less than Karl Towns - yep, scary).

What's really nice about Oubre is his willingness to battle for rebounds offensively and defensively. Much like Looney out in UCLA, Oubre uses his length to compete for boards with guys much taller than him. Because Oubre is an explosive athlete, he can get rebounds that most guys his size cannot.

Offensively:
Oubre has the luxury of playing in the best offensive system, and it's not even close. Coach K has a man-child in the post, so you can't blame him for always looking there. Sean Miller has a mess of an offense out in Arizona, but that's okay because his team defense is incredible. Self relies on his veterans to take the bulk of the scoring load, and they love to work inside and then out, which plays to Oubre's strengths as a knock-down shooter (cooled off recently but was up in the 40's from deep earlier this year). There's a lot of off-ball movement, which is a nice plus. He's a young gun, so a lot of the time he will defer to the veterans, which I believe is by design.

I believe Oubre's speed really separates himself from the rest of the three, and he's much more effective with it on this end of the floor. As an example (extreme, probably, but it helps with my point), I look at John Wall and his speed and how has used it to really become one of the best point guards in the league. John Wall's ability to get by his man with his first step changes the way opposing defenses have to play Washington. It opens everything up for guys like Pierce and Beal, especially on drive and kicks. Everyone on the floor, defensively, is responsible for Wall. And Wall has an insane ability to get by guys not going full speed, and then using his top speed to get by the next guy. In the open floor, forget about it. Oubre is basically untouchable. It'll force teams to get back quickly in transition, and will also force teams to abandon offensive rebounding somewhat. I'm not saying Oubre has a Wall-effect on teams with his speed. I'm saying he COULD with the right coaching.

Natural shooting stroke, and for someone that long Oubre doesn't have a lot of moving pieces. Just as a pure shooter, he'll remind you of James Young, but I don't believe his mid-range game is nearly as polished (again I'm amazed that JY fell to Boston at 17 - that's insane). Oubre already has NBA range and he's not afraid to use that to stretch opposing defenses out so Kansas can go back inside to Alexander, Ellis, etc. If Oubre is EVER wide open he should shoot it, and he does most of the time without hesitation.
A big thing for me is he looked comfortable with both hands. I'm not saying Stanley Johnson isn't , but this stood out more because he's a lefty. Can make good drives and good decisions with the ball in either hand, which is another plus.

Defensively:
Again, the potential here is incredible. Someone with this kind of size and quickness could be an absolute monster. There will be times in the clips that follow that will make you fall in love with his potential as a two-way player. Again, he has attributes that the other two simply don't have. Justise is the best defender, but Oubre is four inches longer. Stanley is a good defender but sometimes can't close out, which is rarely a problem for Oubre.

Oubre's biggest problem is he gets caught ball-watching a lot. He'll loaf around and isn't totally engaged from start to finish of defensive possessions. You can see why he started the year in Bill Self's doghouse (he's still a frequent visitor). This could be attributed to his motor or to the idea that no one has taught him how to play good off-ball/team defense. This is his biggest issue.
He will frequently take wrong angles when he's trying to recover from screens. He usually takes the angle that is most convenient for him, instead of taking the tougher road to get there.

With the right coaching, I believe he can be an above-average defender.

I'm sick of writing. Let's get to the highlights.

CLIPS!:
1-04-15 Kansas v UNLV in Kansas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSpWOYSVa0Q (FULL GAME LINK)
Stats: 3/10 FG, 2/4 3PT/ 4/6 FT, 10 boards, 3 assists, 1 steal, 0 TO, 12 points in 35 min

6:10 http://youtu.be/QSpWOYSVa0Q?t=6m10s- Actually takes good angle through screen, stays with Rashad Vaughn, makes him give it up, good push, collects assist.

11:55 http://youtu.be/QSpWOYSVa0Q?t=11m55s- Tries to cut down passing lane, but is just a little late, could have taken a different route to cut shot off

16:42 http://youtu.be/QSpWOYSVa0Q?t=16m42s- Gets abused on the back door cut, cutter didn't get the ball

18:05 http://youtu.be/QSpWOYSVa0Q?t=18m5s - Nice entry pass, good timing, put it baseline side so Cliff could carve out easy space for dunk

18:56 http://youtu.be/QSpWOYSVa0Q?t=18m56s- Hand down, man down

19:13 http://youtu.be/QSpWOYSVa0Q?t=19m13s- Comes from top of key to get offensive board, misses first, gets second blocked, but that's more of the motor I'm looking for. Good, quick releases that close

21:41 http://youtu.be/QSpWOYSVa0Q?t=21m41s - Weird camera angle, but some bad spacing there, too close to 0

25:00 http://youtu.be/QSpWOYSVa0Q?t=25m- Not full speed, glides and stays behind defender to create 2-on-1

26:35 http://youtu.be/QSpWOYSVa0Q?t=26m35s - Runs straight to rim, good body control, nice touch, great finish

28:31 http://youtu.be/QSpWOYSVa0Q?t=28m31s - Little off-balanced on jumper, good look, square to the basket, nice job to find open space with 4 defenders looking at the ball, ball-handler could have gotten him it sooner

28:50 http://youtu.be/QSpWOYSVa0Q?t=28m50s- Example of length and athleticism helping him on glass

29:30 http://youtu.be/QSpWOYSVa0Q?t=29m30s- Good help D, really guarding two people at once, has good speed on close-out but just over pursued a little bit

40:55 http://youtu.be/QSpWOYSVa0Q?t=40m55s - Comes way out to guard, good active hands, long reach, not under control after steal but gets fouled

43:37 http://youtu.be/QSpWOYSVa0Q?t=43m37s- Good job fighting through screen, but doesn't get completely square with his man, relaxes a bit and guy gets by him

43:55 http://youtu.be/QSpWOYSVa0Q?t=43m55s - Nice catch and shoot, despite bad pass, gets square and quick release

44:35 http://youtu.be/QSpWOYSVa0Q?t=44m35s- Picks up Vaughan in TRAN, makes him give it up, forces Vaughan to settle, length bothers shot

50:04 http://youtu.be/QSpWOYSVa0Q?t=50m4s - Confident shot, little bit of a dip, square to the basket, quick release, follows through, watch through to see uptick in defensive intensity

51:55 http://youtu.be/QSpWOYSVa0Q?t=51m55s- Good example of changing speeds to get by defenders, lean into one of them to get fouled next time

56:58 http://youtu.be/QSpWOYSVa0Q?t=56m58s- Looks a little lost, no? Some bad communication going on, but speed helps

59:48 http://youtu.be/QSpWOYSVa0Q?t=59m48s- Nice, active hands

1:00:15 http://youtu.be/QSpWOYSVa0Q?t=1h15s - Flat out burnt

1:09:47 http://youtu.be/QSpWOYSVa0Q?t=1h9m47s- Good on ball D forces assignment to give it up

1:11:30 http://youtu.be/QSpWOYSVa0Q?t=1h11m30s - Fair question: what are you doing? Keep watching for another good use of change in speed, goaltend doesn't get called

1-19-15 Kansas v Oklahoma @ Kansas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9WRHPmD4Qo(FULL GAME LINK)
Stats: 6/11 FG, 2/5 3PT, 5/8 FT, 9 rebounds, 0 assists, 2 steals, 2 TO's, 19 points in 28 min

1:48 http://youtu.be/p9WRHPmD4Qo?t=1m48s - Something minor, but good defensive rotation

3:10 http://youtu.be/p9WRHPmD4Qo?t=3m10s- Good job in fast break to get to his shot (NOTE: looks like he has no idea what to do w/o ball), gets good, clean release

3:40 http://youtu.be/p9WRHPmD4Qo?t=3m40s- Good example of ball movement in Self's offense (NOTE: Oubre standing around), deep 3, good form

4:08 http://youtu.be/p9WRHPmD4Qo?t=4m8s - ....He punches a dude in the head going after a rebound.....

6:07 http://youtu.be/p9WRHPmD4Qo?t=6m7s- Good hustle, don't agree with the call, but good sport going over and making sure no love lost

7:07 http://youtu.be/p9WRHPmD4Qo?t=7m7s- Good, tight D, nice use of hands, really good hustle, way to show some emotion, great play in many different facets, this is what I really like seeing (Smart-esque)

8:27 http://youtu.be/p9WRHPmD4Qo?t=8m27s- Bad D, caught ball-watching, couldn't recover nearly in time

9:45 http://youtu.be/p9WRHPmD4Qo?t=9m45s- Stays w/ smaller guard, forces pass, good help D, active hands collect steal, gets fouled, GREAT sequence

17:12 http://youtu.be/p9WRHPmD4Qo?t=17m12s- Bad communication on pick (I'll put blame on Oubre), loses man, decent attempt at close out

23:37 http://youtu.be/p9WRHPmD4Qo?t=23m37s- Bad screen by 31 doesn't give Oubre full look at shot, deep 3, off-balance to the right makes shot slightly long right

24:23 http://youtu.be/p9WRHPmD4Qo?t=24m23s - Doesn't see double, brings ball down too far, gets stripped, comes back on D grabs rebound, uses body to gain separation, good sequence for hustle points

26:33 http://youtu.be/p9WRHPmD4Qo?t=26m33s - Decent D, challenged shot, assignment just buried it

55:04 http://youtu.be/p9WRHPmD4Qo?t=55m4s - Watch his speed going back down floor, might hit full speed at one point

1:11:40 http://youtu.be/p9WRHPmD4Qo?t=1h11m40s- Good use of size and speed to get into the lane, gets there using right hand (lefty shooter), draws contact

1:14:50 http://youtu.be/p9WRHPmD4Qo?t=1h14m48s- ISO, uses speed to get by defender, good touch, clutch basket

1:17:45 http://youtu.be/p9WRHPmD4Qo?t=1h17m45s - Uses L hand to bring ball up, speed (and long strides) gets by first guy, brings ball in close for protection, nice and smooth, continue through next series to see good defense on Hield

Final Analysis: You've probably noticed that Oubre has more clips than everyone else. It's because he's so hard to figure out. On one play he can look like a defensive force the next he gets completely lost. On offense he has all the tools the others do plus speed. Has the ability to be the best of the bunch. Question is will he get there?

Conclusion:
I think all of these guys could have an impact on the next level, obviously in different ways.

I think you could insert Justise Winslow on an NBA team right now just for a defensive presence (after Prince and Smart he would probably be Boston's best wing defender). Winslow's motor on both sides of the court is easy to see when you watch. And with the way Marcus has improved his shooting ability, I think you could hope Justise could do the same under the watchful eye of the Celtics coaching staff. But the big thing for me - and I actually agree with Bill Simmons on this - I want a guy that WANTS to play basketball and WANTS to get better. You can tell when certain players have that attitude. I think Winslow has it.

Stanley Johnson is by far the most polished player of the three. He's very crafty offensively, has a pretty solid jump shot, finishes through contact, and is an alpha-dog type on the offensive end. He has a relentless motor offensively, and that will carry over from time-to-time defensively. When he does fully engage defensively, he's as good as Winslow but not the same type of team defender. My big question for Johnson is his ability to get by guys at the next level with speed AND physicality. Speed is the question mark.
I love the player Kelly Oubre could be. He's a polished offensive player with a knockdown, smooth jump shot, deadly in transition, and has elite speed. He measurables check out with some of the elite wings in the NBA, and he obviously still has room for growth. I've noticed in the last two games his playing time has gone down, so he could quite easily be back in Bill Self's doghouse for lack of effort, which is my biggest problem with him.

If I'm Danny Ainge and I have a pick in the top 10, Stanley Johnson is my first pick off the board for wings because I know exactly what I'm getting. I don't think his speed is THAT big of an issue. He has a winning pedigree and has shown me enough this year that he could make an impact on both ends of the floor.

After that, it gets dicey between Oubre and Winslow. There's a real "James Young" vibe going on with Oubre, although I think Young was more polished as an offensive weapon (not so much as a shooter - I think Oubre is better - but Young's midrange game was something special last year). People could look back on this draft and say "Why didn't someone draft Oubre higher? Kid just needed the right coaching, minutes, etc." However, I often ask myself a question and I think it's an important one: What guy is going to have the biggest impact on the game without scoring (this question is the reason why I love Marcus Smart so much)? And I think the answer to that is Justise Winslow. Arguably the best defender in the class for any position, both as an on-ball and team defender, and having a stopper is really important to me. The best teams play both ways. I want guys that can shut down the opposition because it's much easier to find shooters in today's NBA landscape. This is where Brad Stevens comes into play. I think we can all agree that Brad has done a great job with some of the younger guys. I'd ask him "Which guy do you think would be easier to mold?" I have a feeling he'd say Justise, but I would roll with Oubre. I'd feel comfortable taking Oubre as high as 8/9/10 and obviously anywhere in the late lotto. Winslow I'd be okay with somewhere in the 14/15/16 range.

No-Man · Post #2 » by **No-Man** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:22 pm

Good breakdown but you underestimate Winslow who is imo the best wing in this class, Johnson plays with blinders and is a worse athlete and defender, yes, he is really aggressive with the ball, but he has to reconstruct his shot and his ball skills are not good enough to be a premiere offensive player, Winslow on the other hand, while less aggressive, is much better at getting opportunistic shots and I will say has a better chance at been a respectable shooter without the ball, he is the better athlete and the one with more untapped potential.
Oubre is last clearly right at this time, he has tools, and arguably is the better shooter, but his basketball game is not there.
I'd put Hezonja ahead of Johnson but below Justise right now.

wickedwrister · Post #3 » by **wickedwrister** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:22 pm

Thanks for posting, I've been hoping one of these guys drops to the Miami pick the Sixers own and/or they can trade up using it to get one. Didn't really know a ton about the differences in their games though. Fun to read, will have to come back and watch some of the clips later.

Powe-Fessional · Post #4 » by **Powe-Fessional** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:21 pm

I think Oubre has the chance to be the best one of the three, and I'd argue he has the most untapped potential because we don't know what he's really capable of. I have a hard time finding a comp for his potential. Really long, great athlete, good shooting form, moves like a gazelle, but he has a ways to go. A huge thing for these guys is going to be about WHERE they end up. If you gave Pop either of these guys you could sit back and feel great about their future. The problem is these guys most likely aren't going to end up there. One might end up in DEN, one could end up in NOLA, one could end up in NY and you might just sit there thinking "What could have happened?" I'm not knocking coaches in particular, but some coaches are much better than others in terms of development. As a Celtics guy I feel comfortable with selecting any of these guys because of the development of Marcus Smart this year, and that's definitely where that "untapped potential" for Winslow comes in. Great athlete, better vision than I think people realize, relentless competitor, incredibly smart defender with a broken jump shot. He definitely has less things to fix than Oubre, but I'd say Oubre's ceiling is higher.

vdalfmd · Post #5 » by **vdalfmd** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:40 pm

Surprisingly, I'm not high on each one of them. Stanley Johnson is overhyped, imho (if you want to hear reasons, I'll explain them). Oubre has the best chances to be a good-to-great player, just for the physical tools and the good shooting mechanics, but everytime I watch him I hate him, so I don't know... Hope my Sixers end up with a big or a point-guard.

Powe-Fessional · Post #6 » by **Powe-Fessional** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:33 pm

vdalfmd wrote:Surprisingly, I'm not high on each one of them. Stanley Johnson is overhyped, imho (if you want to hear reasons, I'll explain them). Oubre has the best chances to be a good-to-great player, just for the physical tools and the good shooting mechanics, but everytime I watch him I hate him, so I don't know... Hope my Sixers end up with a big or a point-guard.

I'm curious. Fire away. I have reservations about him, but I do like him. I'll admit I had a soft spot for him coming into college so I'm always optimistic with him.

vdalfmd · Post #7 » by **vdalfmd** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:50 pm

Powe-Fessional wrote:
vdalfmd wrote:Surprisingly, I'm not high on each one of them. Stanley Johnson is overhyped, imho (if you want to hear reasons, I'll explain them). Oubre has the best chances to be a good-to-great player, just for the physical tools and the good shooting mechanics, but everytime I watch him I hate him, so I don't know... Hope my Sixers end up with a big or a point-guard.

I'm curious. Fire away. I have reservations about him, but I do like him. I'll admit I had a soft spot for him coming into college so I'm always optimistic with him.

Don't misunderstand me, he's still a fringe Top 5 prospect (depends on the day

) on my big board. He has a nice all-around potential, but these things leaves me very puzzled when I watch his games.

1) Despite having an enormous size advantage every single game in NCAA basketball (we're talking about 50 pounds advantage over his defender every night), he's not so good at finishing at the rim (I see him setting up for floaters or mid-range attempts too often instead of power dunking). If he's not dominating in this aspect of his game at this level, I think we must reconsider his offensive potential as an NBA player. I give credit to his developing post-game, instead.

2) Despite having good numbers, I think he'll have to rebuild his jumpshot to adapt it at the NBA's game rhythms.

3) Despite being nicely creative as a passer, from times to times he can go in blinder-mode that's just something I hate. He'll spend much more time off the ball in the NBA because he won't be a primary ballhandler entering the league, so he'll have to change this attitude.

I love his defensive effort (even there's some doubts about his lateral quickness, too) and spirit on the court, but imho he is just not the superstud everyone is describing ("the safer pick in the draft", sentence with which I disagree). I think that he has pretty good chances to be a good starter but I can't believe no one is considering these flaws (ok, he can easily improve them, but we must consider them).
End of the rant.

Xepa777 · Post #8 » by **Xepa777** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:06 pm

vdalfmd wrote:
Powe-Fessional wrote:
vdalfmd wrote:Surprisingly, I'm not high on each one of them. Stanley Johnson is overhyped, imho (if you want to hear reasons, I'll explain them). Oubre has the best chances to be a good-to-great player, just for the physical tools and the good shooting mechanics, but everytime I watch him I hate him, so I don't know... Hope my Sixers end up with a big or a point-guard.

I'm curious. Fire away. I have reservations about him, but I do like him. I'll admit I had a soft spot for him coming into college so I'm always optimistic with him.

Don't misunderstand me, he's still a fringe Top 5 prospect (depends on the day ) on my big board. He has a nice all-around potential, but these things leaves me very puzzled when I watch his games.

1) Despite having an enormous size advantage every single game in NCAA basketball (we're talking about 50 pounds advantage over his defender every night), he's not so good at finishing at the rim (I see him setting up for floaters or mid-range attempts too often instead of power dunking). If he's not dominating in this aspect of his game at this level, I think we must reconsider his offensive potential as an NBA player. I give credit to his developing post-game, instead.

2) Despite having good numbers, I think he'll have to rebuild his jumpshot to adapt it at the NBA's game rhythms.

3) Despite being nicely creative as a passer, from times to times he can go in blinder-mode that's just something I hate. He'll spend much more time off the ball in the NBA because he won't be a primary ballhandler entering the league, so he'll have to change this attitude.

I love his defensive effort (even there's some doubts about his lateral quickness, too) and spirit on the court, but imho he is just not the superstud everyone is describing ("the safer pick in the draft", sentence with which I disagree). I think that he has pretty good chances to be a good starter but I can't believe no one is considering these flaws (ok, he can easily improve them, but we must consider them).
End of the rant.

I agree with everything said here. Super Mario is the best wing in this class.

vdalfmd · Post #9 » by **vdalfmd** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:55 am

Xepa777 wrote:I agree with everything said here. Super Mario is the best wing in this class.

Ehm, I have the same amount of doubts surrounding Hezonja, Winslow and Oubre, aside from Johnson. Wings this year are very tricky, very difficult to choose, very different pros and cons for every prospect. My favourite right now is Oubre, but that's just for his physical profile and natural skills, because he doesn't pass my eye test when I watch him.

Notanoob · Post #10 » by **Notanoob** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:29 pm

For people who have watched a good amount of Oubre footage, how do you guys like his handle and passing abilities? I find that guys who don't move the ball well can be a liability and gum up a nice system, so if a guy struggles in those aspects he feels like a 6th man sort rather than a starter.

It's my problem with Johnson too. As horrendous as the Arizona offense is, Aaron Gordon managed to showcase some nice passing ability within it last year. From what I've watched of Johnson I haven't seen the same thing. I also think that his jumpshot needs work for the NBA, and he's been cooling off quickly. He shot 50% in December and since then he's been shooting 33%. Needs to put more ark on the ball IMO.

Anyways, love the long post OP, have an and-1.

Powe-Fessional · Post #11 » by **Powe-Fessional** » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:12 pm

Notanoob wrote:For people who have watched a good amount of Oubre footage, how do you guys like his handle and passing abilities? I find that guys who don't move the ball well can be a liability and gum up a nice system, so if a guy struggles in those aspects he feels like a 6th man sort rather than a starter.

It's my problem with Johnson too. As horrendous as the Arizona offense is, Aaron Gordon managed to showcase some nice passing ability within it last year. From what I've watched of Johnson I haven't seen the same thing. I also think that his jumpshot needs work for the NBA, and he's been cooling off quickly. He shot 50% in December and since then he's been shooting 33%. Needs to put more ark on the ball IMO.

Anyways, love the long post OP, have an and-1.

Sometimes assist numbers can lie about how well one person makes the ball move in a particular offense. Aaron Gordon is a great passing.....whatever he is. He has great vision for a guy that size. Hopefully that continues as he becomes more acclimated with NBA pace, spacing, and defense.

In terms of Oubre, the ball continues to move in that offense despite low assist totals. The offensive system he is in trumps the other two in terms of sharing the basketball. They move it inside and out, and it flies around the perimeter regularly. Oubre understands that he needs to differ to veterans in most situations. He rarely ball hogs and goes ISO.

Stanley Johnson is in a different situation. Arizona's offense is terrible, and often times he will have to be more selfish and take over games. There are times when watching him where he'll get doubled and instead of trying to pass out of it he'll try and do something on his own, for better or for worse. He had much better vision in high school so if I were an NBA GM I'd see if I can bring that out of him during workouts with better offensive players around him.

Powe-Fessional · Post #12 » by **Powe-Fessional** » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:17 pm

vdalfmd wrote:
Powe-Fessional wrote:
vdalfmd wrote:Surprisingly, I'm not high on each one of them. Stanley Johnson is overhyped, imho (if you want to hear reasons, I'll explain them). Oubre has the best chances to be a good-to-great player, just for the physical tools and the good shooting mechanics, but everytime I watch him I hate him, so I don't know... Hope my Sixers end up with a big or a point-guard.

I'm curious. Fire away. I have reservations about him, but I do like him. I'll admit I had a soft spot for him coming into college so I'm always optimistic with him.

Don't misunderstand me, he's still a fringe Top 5 prospect (depends on the day ) on my big board. He has a nice all-around potential, but these things leaves me very puzzled when I watch his games.

1) Despite having an enormous size advantage every single game in NCAA basketball (we're talking about 50 pounds advantage over his defender every night), he's not so good at finishing at the rim (I see him setting up for floaters or mid-range attempts too often instead of power dunking). If he's not dominating in this aspect of his game at this level, I think we must reconsider his offensive potential as an NBA player. I give credit to his developing post-game, instead.

2) Despite having good numbers, I think he'll have to rebuild his jumpshot to adapt it at the NBA's game rhythms.

3) Despite being nicely creative as a passer, from times to times he can go in blinder-mode that's just something I hate. He'll spend much more time off the ball in the NBA because he won't be a primary ballhandler entering the league, so he'll have to change this attitude.

I love his defensive effort (even there's some doubts about his lateral quickness, too) and spirit on the court, but imho he is just not the superstud everyone is describing ("the safer pick in the draft", sentence with which I disagree). I think that he has pretty good chances to be a good starter but I can't believe no one is considering these flaws (ok, he can easily improve them, but we must consider them).
End of the rant.

1.) I don't know if he needs to be power dunking. I find his mid-range game to be slightly refreshing, and I attribute it to his BBIQ. Instead of risking a charge he pulls up and takes a high percentage shot to try and avoid foul trouble. But I agree that he should work on his post game a lot, especially considering he does go ISO a lot. I wish he'd back smaller defenders down and go to work. But there has to be recognition of that both on Stanley's part and on the ball handler to recognize he has a mismatch.

2. and 3.) Agree. I just hope with better coaching these two things are no longer a problem.

djphan · Post #13 » by **djphan** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:39 am

Oubre has improved over conference play which is a good sign.... Big12 has been toughest conference this year...

He's probably the best sf in the draft now... I think Winslow is more a SG tho...

ManualRam · Post #14 » by **ManualRam** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:43 pm

winslow can defend either wing position so he is a wing.

ManualRam · Post #15 » by **ManualRam** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:49 pm

Powe-Fessional wrote:
Notanoob wrote:For people who have watched a good amount of Oubre footage, how do you guys like his handle and passing abilities? I find that guys who don't move the ball well can be a liability and gum up a nice system, so if a guy struggles in those aspects he feels like a 6th man sort rather than a starter.

It's my problem with Johnson too. As horrendous as the Arizona offense is, Aaron Gordon managed to showcase some nice passing ability within it last year. From what I've watched of Johnson I haven't seen the same thing. I also think that his jumpshot needs work for the NBA, and he's been cooling off quickly. He shot 50% in December and since then he's been shooting 33%. Needs to put more ark on the ball IMO.

Anyways, love the long post OP, have an and-1.

Sometimes assist numbers can lie about how well one person makes the ball move in a particular offense. Aaron Gordon is a great passing.....whatever he is. He has great vision for a guy that size. Hopefully that continues as he becomes more acclimated with NBA pace, spacing, and defense.

In terms of Oubre, the ball continues to move in that offense despite low assist totals. The offensive system he is in trumps the other two in terms of sharing the basketball. They move it inside and out, and it flies around the perimeter regularly. Oubre understands that he needs to differ to veterans in most situations. He rarely ball hogs and goes ISO.

oubre doesn't have much of a floor game. like stan, he can play with blinders on, but stan at least flashes some playmaking ability off the bounce. oubre hasn't. he's definitely more of a guy who finishes plays. oubre might not be a ball hog. if he was, he'd be planted on the bench, but do any of his passes shift the defense or create an advantage? doesnt look like it to me. he gives up the ball because he has to, but also keep in mind that his ball skills are limited atm.

as far as just straight up passing, ball-moving, being a player that allows a system to function smoothly, winslow >>
he might not be "the guy," but i think he can play with anyone.
hezonja probably has the best playmaking potential of the wings, but his decision making can be iffy.

Nuggets18 · Post #16 » by **Nuggets18** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:24 pm

hezonja is a 6'7 rudy fernandez

i'd rather have any of the other 3 wings

Powe-Fessional · Post #17 » by **Powe-Fessional** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:24 pm

ManualRam wrote:
Powe-Fessional wrote:
Notanoob wrote:For people who have watched a good amount of Oubre footage, how do you guys like his handle and passing abilities? I find that guys who don't move the ball well can be a liability and gum up a nice system, so if a guy struggles in those aspects he feels like a 6th man sort rather than a starter.

It's my problem with Johnson too. As horrendous as the Arizona offense is, Aaron Gordon managed to showcase some nice passing ability within it last year. From what I've watched of Johnson I haven't seen the same thing. I also think that his jumpshot needs work for the NBA, and he's been cooling off quickly. He shot 50% in December and since then he's been shooting 33%. Needs to put more ark on the ball IMO.

Anyways, love the long post OP, have an and-1.

Sometimes assist numbers can lie about how well one person makes the ball move in a particular offense. Aaron Gordon is a great passing.....whatever he is. He has great vision for a guy that size. Hopefully that continues as he becomes more acclimated with NBA pace, spacing, and defense.

In terms of Oubre, the ball continues to move in that offense despite low assist totals. The offensive system he is in trumps the other two in terms of sharing the basketball. They move it inside and out, and it flies around the perimeter regularly. Oubre understands that he needs to differ to veterans in most situations. He rarely ball hogs and goes ISO.

oubre doesn't have much of a floor game. like stan, he can play with blinders on, but stan at least flashes some playmaking ability off the bounce. oubre hasn't. he's definitely more of a guy who finishes plays. oubre might not be a ball hog. if he was, he'd be planted on the bench, but do any of his passes shift the defense or create an advantage? doesnt look like it to me. he gives up the ball because he has to, but also keep in mind that his ball skills are limited atm.

as far as just straight up passing, ball-moving, being a player that allows a system to function smoothly, winslow >>
he might not be "the guy," but i think he can play with anyone.
hezonja probably has the best playmaking potential of the wings, but his decision making can be iffy.

Terrific question. And you're right, they don't the majority of the time. But how much of that is by design in the system Self runs? I'm not a KU guy, and I didn't follow him with Illinois. I'm just not as versed as others are when it comes to his coaching tendencies.

Mik317 · Post #18 » by **Mik317** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:00 pm

Nuggets18 wrote:hezonja is a 6'7 rudy fernandez

i'd rather have any of the other 3 wings

Rudy was a pretty good player when he didn't have his head up his ass.

His biggest problem was his ego as he never would accept his role and thus he went back overseas where he could be a God. Rudy is a damn good player tho.

Bakuto · Post #19 » by **Bakuto** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:33 pm

For all the Oubre scholars, how effective do you guys feel he would be in Stan Van Gundy's system? Assuming we have the same team plus maybe Khris Middleton or some other 3 point shooting SF.

No-Man · Post #20 » by **No-Man** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:04 pm

Catalysm wrote:For all the Oubre scholars, how effective do you guys feel he would be in Stan Van Gundy's system? Assuming we have the same team plus maybe Khris Middleton or some other 3 point shooting SF.

I dont know, he is atheltic, really long and his shooting is sweet, but he is not a high IQ guy, and you have a pletora of dumb players in Detroit already.
But if he is there you take him I guess, you need a wing and he might be the guy with highest ceiling available.

Oubre by the way could end up been a 6'7 Rudy Fernandez, who imo, is not bad at all, since he has some of the physical attributes Rudy lacked.
Hezonja is nothing at all like Fernandez.

On the great deabte, again, this is Winslow spot to lose, he is at the top of the college wings clearly.