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Re-Ranking Based on Who is A true PF

Ivan Rabb
Marquese Chriss
Brice Johnson
Domantas Sabonis
Dragan Bender
Nigel Hayes

I think I'd go Bender 1 and Chriss 2 and Rabb 3

sweetcity wrote:Re-Ranking Based on Who is A true PF

Ivan Rabb
Marquese Chriss
Brice Johnson
Domantas Sabonis
Dragan Bender
Nigel Hayes

I think I'd go Bender 1 and Chriss 2 and Rabb 3

Johnson is clearly a C, he cant stretch the floor and he cant defend in the perimeter

Of those players

Domantas Sabonis
Brice Johnson
Marquese Chriss
Dragan Bender
Henry Ellenson
Ivan Rabb
Deyonta Davis
Skal Labissiere

Fischella wrote:

sweetcity wrote:Re-Ranking Based on Who is A true PF

Ivan Rabb
Marquese Chriss
Brice Johnson
Domantas Sabonis
Dragan Bender
Nigel Hayes

I think I'd go Bender 1 and Chriss 2 and Rabb 3

Johnson is clearly a C, he cant stretch the floor and he cant defend in the perimeter

And Taj Gibson isn't a PF too right? Is Brandon Bass a center? Your argument is that these guys can defend the perimeter, but Johnson doesn't move badly, it could be he just doesn't know how to play proper defense.

With stretch 4's being in vogue, I think ya gotta consider Hernangomez. But I haven't seen enough of him to tell.

doordoor123 wrote:

Fischella wrote:

sweetcity wrote:Re-Ranking Based on Who is A true PF

Ivan Rabb
Marquese Chriss
Brice Johnson
Domantas Sabonis
Dragan Bender
Nigel Hayes

I think I'd go Bender 1 and Chriss 2 and Rabb 3

Johnson is clearly a C, he cant stretch the floor and he cant defend in the perimeter

And Taj Gibson isn't a PF too right? Is Brandon Bass a center? Your argument is that these guys can defend the perimeter, but Johnson doesn't move badly, it could be he just doesn't know how to play proper defense.

Bass has a terrific midrange shot and he has played a ton of back-up C, same with Gibson, who actually is a much better defneder overall.

Brice Johnson is a PF

This pretty simple, how many of these guys have the feet, quickness and game to be able to defend modern swings or PFs and exploit them on the other end, because clearly you have Ingram, when he gets up in weight, Simmons, when he learns how to defend inside-out, Jaylen Brown, Hernangómez, Chriss, potentially he could be there, he is really raw still, Prince, and maybe Rabb, Bender and Sabonis, if they continue to further develop their face-up games, since they all have phenomenal footwork and are quick.
2nd round guys that work are, Hayes, Finney-Smith, Layman, Jalen Jones, House, Niang, Webb, Zagorac, Zipser,...
Justin Jackson, OG Anunoby or Troy Williams if they declare will fit this also.

The rest are all Centers, or bigs, or however you wanna call it, but they can't play PF for you unless they are bench players or they are playing in a total special set-up that balance their needs, and that likely is not going to = wins honestly.

Fischella wrote:This pretty simple, how many of these guys have the feet, quickness and game to be able to defend modern swings or PFs and exploit them on the other end, because clearly you have Ingram, when he gets up in weight, Simmons, when he learns how to defend inside-out, Jaylen Brown, Hernangómez, Chriss, potentially he could be there, he is really raw still, Prince, and maybe Rabb, Bender and Sabonis, if they continue to further develop their face-up games, since they all have phenomenal footwork and are quick.
2nd round guys that work are, Hayes, Finney-Smith, Layman, Jalen Jones, House, Niang, Webb, Zagorac, Zipser,...
Justin Jackson, OG Anunoby or Troy Williams if they declare will fit this also.

The rest are all Centers, or bigs, or however you wanna call it, but they can't play PF for you unless they are bench players or they are playing in a total special set-up that balance their needs, and that likely is not going to = wins honestly.

I agree the power forward is shifting more into a center, but there are occasions where chasing guys to the three point line isn't an issue: 1. Not all power forwards are three point shooters (there are other valuable assets such as offensive rebounding and defense) 2. Not all power forwards are quick (there are tall power forwards that aren't very quick)

There aren't many starting power forwards that can beat a defender off the dribble and teams don't usually go small till their second units. In terms of chasing down three point shots, I see Pau Gasol doing it on a nightly basis. Just run toward people with your hands up. You don't have to be the quickest guy to run down a shot, you just have to be reactionary (to react).

I have 0 interest on drafting guys like Ellenson to play PF, that is pretty much where I stand.

Fischella wrote:I have 0 interest on drafting guys like Ellenson to play PF, that is pretty much where I stand.

The thing about Ellenson is that he can handle the ball and create. He has potential to be a good offensive threat. He's also only 19 and not at all anywhere near what he will become. In terms of defense, I don't doubt he'll be able to figure something out. In terms of defensive potential, I think he could be a good off-ball defender. He has a vertical. The issue is on-ball, but with a good defensive center, that could be semi-covered.

GM John Hammond said it best - "You are what you can defend".

Offensively, the ideal is that every player have the ability to shoot, handle, and pass. In reality, teams create lineups to minimize offensive deficiency in the most likely places, while most often matching players of similar size and athletic ability for defensive purposes.

When we get into these position debates, and say "PF", what is a PF? Is a PF someone like Karl Malone? Or was Karl Malone just an offensively talented player that could guard certain players in the size/athleticism spectrum?

Rockmaninoff wrote:GM John Hammond said it best - "You are what you can defend".

Offensively, the ideal is that every player have the ability to shoot, handle, and pass. In reality, teams create lineups to minimize offensive deficiency in the most likely places, while most often matching players of similar size and athletic ability for defensive purposes.

When we get into these position debates, and say "PF", what is a PF? Is a PF someone like Karl Malone? Or was Karl Malone just an offensively talented player that could guard certain players in the size/athleticism spectrum?

Weed is a hell of a drug.

sweetcity wrote:Looks like we are going to have a bunch of PF's in the late half of the lottery.

Henry Ellenson
Ivan Rabb
Skal Labissierre
Deyonta Davis
Marquese Chriss
Brice Johnson
Domantas Sabonis
Dragan Bender

How does everyone rank them? First to worst

Anyway, from a rough thought of who will be able to defend the largest range of players and be able to shoot/handle/pass the best:

Bender
Rabb
Sabonis
Ellenson/Chriss
Johnson/Davis
Labissierre

Fischella wrote:This pretty simple, how many of these guys have the feet, quickness and game to be able to defend modern swings or PFs and exploit them on the other end, because clearly you have Ingram, when he gets up in weight, Simmons, when he learns how to defend inside-out, Jaylen Brown, Hernangómez, Chriss, potentially he could be there, he is really raw still, Prince, and maybe Rabb, Bender and Sabonis, if they continue to further develop their face-up games, since they all have phenomenal footwork and are quick.
2nd round guys that work are, Hayes, Finney-Smith, Layman, Jalen Jones, House, Niang, Webb, Zagorac, Zipser,...
Justin Jackson, OG Anunoby or Troy Williams if they declare will fit this also.

The rest are all Centers, or bigs, or however you wanna call it, but they can't play PF for you unless they are bench players or they are playing in a total special set-up that balance their needs, and that likely is not going to = wins honestly.

You are taking what teams have to do and smashing it in with what teams want to do. They're still going to look at top end potential. Nobody wants to build a team counting on playing small ball. They will still look at Chriss as a SF. Ellenson is still going to be drafted as a PF. Skal is a pf unless/until it shows he can or can't defend pf's.


I think you're letting fads change the reality. Reality is that they will still believe that a dominant power forward will destroy the idea of a "stretch 4".

Then when it comes to a center. Eventually they'll figure out a way to prove that you lose by playing a forward at center. Usually it takes playoff games to prove a centers worth but it will become easier to see the more teams try playing guys at center that you think are "modern game" centers

Coeur wrote:

Fischella wrote:This pretty simple, how many of these guys have the feet, quickness and game to be able to defend modern swings or PFs and exploit them on the other end, because clearly you have Ingram, when he gets up in weight, Simmons, when he learns how to defend inside-out, Jaylen Brown, Hernangómez, Chriss, potentially he could be there, he is really raw still, Prince, and maybe Rabb, Bender and Sabonis, if they continue to further develop their face-up games, since they all have phenomenal footwork and are quick.
2nd round guys that work are, Hayes, Finney-Smith, Layman, Jalen Jones, House, Niang, Webb, Zagorac, Zipser,...
Justin Jackson, OG Anunoby or Troy Williams if they declare will fit this also.

The rest are all Centers, or bigs, or however you wanna call it, but they can't play PF for you unless they are bench players or they are playing in a total special set-up that balance their needs, and that likely is not going to = wins honestly.

You are taking what teams have to do and smashing it in with what teams want to do. They're still going to look at top end potential. Nobody wants to build a team counting on playing small ball. They will still look at Chriss as a SF. Ellenson is still going to be drafted as a PF. Skal is a pf unless/until it shows he can or can't defend pf's.


I think you're letting fads change the reality. Reality is that they will still believe that a dominant power forward will destroy the idea of a "stretch 4".

Then when it comes to a center. Eventually they'll figure out a way to prove that you lose by playing a forward at center. Usually it takes playoff games to prove a centers worth but it will become easier to see the more teams try playing guys at center that you think are "modern game" centers

You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about, like at all man.
Centers are becoming 6th men because they have no place in starting line-ups.

I dont think centers are becoming 6th man. It depends on the the matchup of course. But lets face facts, the game is different and traditional centers are no longer as important, unless they can protect the rim.

Raptors are a great example, JV would be a franchise center in the past.... now, because he cant defend the rim I wouldnt be shocked to see him traded and Biyombo retained.

Really surprised that Ben Bentil has not been mentioned yet. I love him as a stretch 4 with a late 1st or early 2nd.

sipclip wrote:Really surprised that Ben Bentil has not been mentioned yet. I love him as a stretch 4 with a late 1st or early 2nd.

Not only does he have a short wingspan, but people are also questioning his height. He may be closer to 6'7 than 6'9, which isn't good because he can't defend.

sweetcity wrote:I dont think centers are becoming 6th man. It depends on the the matchup of course. But lets face facts, the game is different and traditional centers are no longer as important, unless they can protect the rim.

Raptors are a great example, JV would be a franchise center in the past.... now, because he cant defend the rim I wouldnt be shocked to see him traded and Biyombo retained.

Yeah, basketball is and always has been a game of matchups. Now, things are going towards small-ball, but in actuality, there aren't a lot of good 4's that are adept at 3 point shooting. Some shoot good percentages but have such slow releases that they're not really great threats and not all that difficult to cover. Besides that, what's wrong with being a 6th man. They're very important. When Bogut was starting for GS, Draymond Green was effectively their 6th man.