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HumbleRen wrote:Miller, Scoot, Wemby, Thompson Twins, Bilal, Keyonte, Cason, Lively, Cam Whitemore all easily go ahead of Dick in a redraft.

Gradey will be a good player but him being drafted 12th seems pretty accurate, his play this year hasn't really done much to change that in my opinion.

YogurtProducer wrote:

HumbleRen wrote:Miller, Scoot, Wemby, Thompson Twins, Bilal, Keyonte, Cason, Lively, Cam Whitemore all easily go ahead of Dick in a redraft.

Gradey will be a good player but him being drafted 12th seems pretty accurate, his play this year hasn't really done much to change that in my opinion.

Whitmore nah. The dude is gonna be a Lou Will or Jordan Clarkson type guy who has more hype than actual impact.

Casuals for years will wonder why Whitmore never "got" his "own" team.. maybe it is the 18 assists in 678 minutes

YogurtProducer wrote:

HumbleRen wrote:Miller, Scoot, Wemby, Thompson Twins, Bilal, Keyonte, Cason, Lively, Cam Whitemore all easily go ahead of Dick in a redraft.

Gradey will be a good player but him being drafted 12th seems pretty accurate, his play this year hasn't really done much to change that in my opinion.

Whitmore nah. The dude is gonna be a Lou Will or Jordan Clarkson type guy who has more hype than actual impact.

Casuals for years will wonder why Whitmore never "got" his "own" team.. maybe it is the 18 assists in 678 minutes

YogurtProducer wrote:

HumbleRen wrote:Miller, Scoot, Wemby, Thompson Twins, Bilal, Keyonte, Cason, Lively, Cam Whitemore all easily go ahead of Dick in a redraft.

Gradey will be a good player but him being drafted 12th seems pretty accurate, his play this year hasn't really done much to change that in my opinion.

Whitmore nah. The dude is gonna be a Lou Will or Jordan Clarkson type guy who has more hype than actual impact.

Casuals for years will wonder why Whitmore never "got" his "own" team.. maybe it is the 18 assists in 678 minutes

OakleyDokely wrote:

YogurtProducer wrote:

HumbleRen wrote:Miller, Scoot, Wemby, Thompson Twins, Bilal, Keyonte, Cason, Lively, Cam Whitemore all easily go ahead of Dick in a redraft.

Gradey will be a good player but him being drafted 12th seems pretty accurate, his play this year hasn't really done much to change that in my opinion.

Whitmore nah. The dude is gonna be a Lou Will or Jordan Clarkson type guy who has more hype than actual impact.

Casuals for years will wonder why Whitmore never "got" his "own" team.. maybe it is the 18 assists in 678 minutes

I think Whitmore can become a Norm Powell type, an instant offense guy, but the playmaking and passing is a very big issue.

I didn't even believe your numbers at first and then when I looked them up, the only regular player with fewer assists per 100 possessions than Cam is Mitchell Robinson. He's at the bottom of the league with mostly backup bigs. And his assist rate was terrible in college as well.

HumbleRen wrote:

YogurtProducer wrote:

HumbleRen wrote:Miller, Scoot, Wemby, Thompson Twins, Bilal, Keyonte, Cason, Lively, Cam Whitemore all easily go ahead of Dick in a redraft.

Gradey will be a good player but him being drafted 12th seems pretty accurate, his play this year hasn't really done much to change that in my opinion.

Whitmore nah. The dude is gonna be a Lou Will or Jordan Clarkson type guy who has more hype than actual impact.

Casuals for years will wonder why Whitmore never "got" his "own" team.. maybe it is the 18 assists in 678 minutes

You can have your opinion, Whitmore is not falling out of the top 10 in a redraft in my opinion.

YogurtProducer wrote:

HumbleRen wrote:

YogurtProducer wrote:Whitmore nah. The dude is gonna be a Lou Will or Jordan Clarkson type guy who has more hype than actual impact.

Casuals for years will wonder why Whitmore never "got" his "own" team.. maybe it is the 18 assists in 678 minutes

You can have your opinion, Whitmore is not falling out of the top 10 in a redraft in my opinion.

I don't think anything about Whitmore has changed. He has medical issues and has zero ability to do anything but chuck.

I also am suspect if he shot is sustainable. His FT% is bad and it was bad in college to.

ForeverTFC wrote:Thompson twins are clearly in a different tier than Gradey as prospects. I'd be willing to wager that Masai and Co. likely would have picked them before Scoot last year if they had gotten that Portland pick. It's not to say Gradey can't be better, but their high end outcomes really outperform Gradey's IMO. If either of them learns to shoot, it's over. they have the potential to be better than anyone not named Wemby in this draft.

On the other hand, I have no idea how anyone could definitively put Lively, Keyonte, Dick, and Whitmore in any specific order. I think you can credibly argue any order depending on what you value and what team situation you're in. You can of course have your opinion, but thinking anyone taking a different view in this tier is objectively wrong has no merit IMO.

The 15 players that would go in a lottery if we re-did it this year:
Tier 1: Wemby
Tier 2: Miller
Tier 3: Thompson twins, Coulibaly, Cason Wallace
Tier 4: Scoot (didn't love him pre-draft and this season has been awful. but you still have to give the benefit of the doubt)
Tier 5: Dick, Keyonte, Whitmore, Lively, Black, JJJ, Podz, GG Jackson

PoundTown wrote:

ForeverTFC wrote:Thompson twins are clearly in a different tier than Gradey as prospects. I'd be willing to wager that Masai and Co. likely would have picked them before Scoot last year if they had gotten that Portland pick. It's not to say Gradey can't be better, but their high end outcomes really outperform Gradey's IMO. If either of them learns to shoot, it's over. they have the potential to be better than anyone not named Wemby in this draft.

On the other hand, I have no idea how anyone could definitively put Lively, Keyonte, Dick, and Whitmore in any specific order. I think you can credibly argue any order depending on what you value and what team situation you're in. You can of course have your opinion, but thinking anyone taking a different view in this tier is objectively wrong has no merit IMO.

The 15 players that would go in a lottery if we re-did it this year:
Tier 1: Wemby
Tier 2: Miller
Tier 3: Thompson twins, Coulibaly, Cason Wallace
Tier 4: Scoot (didn't love him pre-draft and this season has been awful. but you still have to give the benefit of the doubt)
Tier 5: Dick, Keyonte, Whitmore, Lively, Black, JJJ, Podz, GG Jackson

I hear ya on the Thompson twins, but they simply cannot shoot. And, that’s a tough one. Gradey has a really great base to build off of in terms of shooting and IQ and size. Some guys just can’t shoot and eventually Teams adjust. Ben Simmons has unbelieveable attributes besides shooting, but the lack of shot really hampered him. He can’t even shoot it from the midrange. If amen can shoot it at a pascal level he can be really good, but it just doesn’t seem to be there.

brownbobcat wrote:

HiJiNX wrote:Appreciate your insight. With Podz he’s a likeable player (love his interviews as well as how he plays) but at the NBA level if you don’t have size/athleticism you better have an extraordinary skill set and he doesn’t quite have that or project to have it. Then you look at Gradey who is already a great shooter and easily beats his man on the closeout and converts difficult finishes at the rim. Add that he’s 6’8 with a good wingspan and he just projects as being a higher ceiling player.

I like Gradey, hope he he does well.

But come on. "Converts difficult finishes"? Every now and then (like everyone else), sure. With regularity? No, he does not. He gets his shot blocked or altered at the rim frequently. He struggled to get separation from anyone yesterday. Podziemski gets to the rim way more often, at much higher unassisted rates, and finishes at a higher percentage - dude plays big, Gradey does not.

OakleyDokely wrote:Rookie TS%, since Jan 1st, Non Bigs:

1. C Wallace: .595
2. Am Thompson: .587
3. GG Jackson: .570
4. C Whitmore: .568
5. G Dick: .566
6. K George: .554
7. B Sheppard: .552
8. Au Thompson: .538
9. B Miller: .538
10. J Jaquez Jr: .535
11. Marcus Sasser: .522
12. B Podziemski: .512
13. S Henderson: .497

HiJiNX wrote:

Dalek wrote:

HiJiNX wrote:Joining the discussion, I think the Thompson twins both have future role player written all over them (and I prefer Ausar because I think he’s better at his impact skills than Amen). As for Gradey, I think he’s probably in the top 10% of player IQ for all players drafted in the last three years. He’s extremely aware. If he can get stronger and make strong drives into traffic then I think we have a very good player on our hands.

I’m not high on Podz in terms of ceiling—I think he’s already pretty close to it. He just lacks the physical tools which sucks cuz the guy is skilled and smart and a competitor, but genetics are genetics.

He also has like 30 charges on the year. Podz is a top rebounding guard as well as being a pretty good shooter.

Gradey does not have much if any defensive IQ. He just knows how to shoot from the corners and the occasional slick pass.

Gradey is in the right place at the right time a lot. But yeah he’s looked bad since he’s playing with a bunch of guys worse than him and he doesn’t have the ability to handle the ball that Podz has.

It’s interesting that you bring up charges because when I was at the Raptors open practice one of the things the coaches brought up was how frequently Gradey was in the right position and his potential to be a guy who draws a lot of charges once he starts to get more respect from NBA refs and develops his strength. I think Gradey also leads the Raptors in charges taken but I could be wrong about that.

Ultimately, it’s hard to see where Podz gets better as a player because of his physical limitations. He’s not special athletically, not particularly explosive, not tall, and not long. He’s already a great ball handler, smart, plays hard, and a good shooter. Well, his shot could improve from inside and outside the arc, so maybe it’s not fair to say he doesn’t have a lot of room to improve. Maybe what I should be saying is I expect incremental improvements that come with experience and offseason work but I certainly don’t expect a leap of any kind.

Gradey on the other hand is 6’8 with a quick first step, great midair body control and the ability to see the floor and make the right play. His body is underdeveloped, as is his handle and his ability to hit from the midrange, and he’s currently quick enough to guard his position but not strong enough, yet while off ball he finds a way to get his hand in on deflections or tap outs etc. Gradey is also far worse than Podz as a pnr ball handler at this stage of the game.

So you’re not totally wrong in saying Podz is a better defender, rebounder, charge taker, ball handler, and pnr player than Gradey right now—all those things are true. What I’m saying is that Gradey has far superior physical tools to Podz and a level of IQ/court awareness that you rarely see from rookies. He also has a great motor. So we’re looking at a guy who has all the intangible pieces of being a great player (starter on a contender type potential) and just needs to add the skills and experience. Podz on the other hand is a guy I see as a very reliable and effective backup guard for his career, able to play on good teams, but not a needle mover or a ceiling raiser.

In essence Podz is a high floor low ceiling guy. Dick is a low floor high ceiling guy, in my opinion.

Said another way, teams aren’t really worried about stopping Podz, whereas for Gradey, even at this stage of his career, his one true NBA skill is so good that although he’s very flawed in a lot of areas, he still creates a lot of gravity simply because he’s a very good shooter. Podz will never have that sort of gravity.

Dalek wrote:

HiJiNX wrote:

Dalek wrote:
He also has like 30 charges on the year. Podz is a top rebounding guard as well as being a pretty good shooter.

Gradey does not have much if any defensive IQ. He just knows how to shoot from the corners and the occasional slick pass.

Gradey is in the right place at the right time a lot. But yeah he’s looked bad since he’s playing with a bunch of guys worse than him and he doesn’t have the ability to handle the ball that Podz has.

It’s interesting that you bring up charges because when I was at the Raptors open practice one of the things the coaches brought up was how frequently Gradey was in the right position and his potential to be a guy who draws a lot of charges once he starts to get more respect from NBA refs and develops his strength. I think Gradey also leads the Raptors in charges taken but I could be wrong about that.

Ultimately, it’s hard to see where Podz gets better as a player because of his physical limitations. He’s not special athletically, not particularly explosive, not tall, and not long. He’s already a great ball handler, smart, plays hard, and a good shooter. Well, his shot could improve from inside and outside the arc, so maybe it’s not fair to say he doesn’t have a lot of room to improve. Maybe what I should be saying is I expect incremental improvements that come with experience and offseason work but I certainly don’t expect a leap of any kind.

Gradey on the other hand is 6’8 with a quick first step, great midair body control and the ability to see the floor and make the right play. His body is underdeveloped, as is his handle and his ability to hit from the midrange, and he’s currently quick enough to guard his position but not strong enough, yet while off ball he finds a way to get his hand in on deflections or tap outs etc. Gradey is also far worse than Podz as a pnr ball handler at this stage of the game.

So you’re not totally wrong in saying Podz is a better defender, rebounder, charge taker, ball handler, and pnr player than Gradey right now—all those things are true. What I’m saying is that Gradey has far superior physical tools to Podz and a level of IQ/court awareness that you rarely see from rookies. He also has a great motor. So we’re looking at a guy who has all the intangible pieces of being a great player (starter on a contender type potential) and just needs to add the skills and experience. Podz on the other hand is a guy I see as a very reliable and effective backup guard for his career, able to play on good teams, but not a needle mover or a ceiling raiser.

In essence Podz is a high floor low ceiling guy. Dick is a low floor high ceiling guy, in my opinion.

Said another way, teams aren’t really worried about stopping Podz, whereas for Gradey, even at this stage of his career, his one true NBA skill is so good that although he’s very flawed in a lot of areas, he still creates a lot of gravity simply because he’s a very good shooter. Podz will never have that sort of gravity.

Gradey does have positional size over Podz but motor-wise I don't agree. Gradey looks poorly conditioned. Certainly seems to see a decline in overall play as games play out. Gradey shoots nearly 40% in the first half on threes while he shoots 32% in the second half.

I just think from college to the pros there is no comparison for on court value. Podz had a OBPM of 7.9 and DBPM 2.7 at Santa Clara and went from 1 PPG to 20 PPG in a single season. He scored from all types of spots on the floor and so far he has translated to the pros on a bubble playoff team of vets with high expectations. He is a gritty type of player and that has some meaning for me even if he is on the smaller side compared to Gradey.

Gradey has his good defensive moments but he mostly gets blown by or at least targeted by defenses. Ultimately it is a wait and see with Gradey to see what he is like over time and after he gains weight. I just worry about his mental toughness. Seeing his mom come out to visit him made me worry.

Dalek wrote:

HiJiNX wrote:

Dalek wrote:
He also has like 30 charges on the year. Podz is a top rebounding guard as well as being a pretty good shooter.

Gradey does not have much if any defensive IQ. He just knows how to shoot from the corners and the occasional slick pass.

Gradey is in the right place at the right time a lot. But yeah he’s looked bad since he’s playing with a bunch of guys worse than him and he doesn’t have the ability to handle the ball that Podz has.

It’s interesting that you bring up charges because when I was at the Raptors open practice one of the things the coaches brought up was how frequently Gradey was in the right position and his potential to be a guy who draws a lot of charges once he starts to get more respect from NBA refs and develops his strength. I think Gradey also leads the Raptors in charges taken but I could be wrong about that.

Ultimately, it’s hard to see where Podz gets better as a player because of his physical limitations. He’s not special athletically, not particularly explosive, not tall, and not long. He’s already a great ball handler, smart, plays hard, and a good shooter. Well, his shot could improve from inside and outside the arc, so maybe it’s not fair to say he doesn’t have a lot of room to improve. Maybe what I should be saying is I expect incremental improvements that come with experience and offseason work but I certainly don’t expect a leap of any kind.

Gradey on the other hand is 6’8 with a quick first step, great midair body control and the ability to see the floor and make the right play. His body is underdeveloped, as is his handle and his ability to hit from the midrange, and he’s currently quick enough to guard his position but not strong enough, yet while off ball he finds a way to get his hand in on deflections or tap outs etc. Gradey is also far worse than Podz as a pnr ball handler at this stage of the game.

So you’re not totally wrong in saying Podz is a better defender, rebounder, charge taker, ball handler, and pnr player than Gradey right now—all those things are true. What I’m saying is that Gradey has far superior physical tools to Podz and a level of IQ/court awareness that you rarely see from rookies. He also has a great motor. So we’re looking at a guy who has all the intangible pieces of being a great player (starter on a contender type potential) and just needs to add the skills and experience. Podz on the other hand is a guy I see as a very reliable and effective backup guard for his career, able to play on good teams, but not a needle mover or a ceiling raiser.

In essence Podz is a high floor low ceiling guy. Dick is a low floor high ceiling guy, in my opinion.

Said another way, teams aren’t really worried about stopping Podz, whereas for Gradey, even at this stage of his career, his one true NBA skill is so good that although he’s very flawed in a lot of areas, he still creates a lot of gravity simply because he’s a very good shooter. Podz will never have that sort of gravity.

Gradey does have positional size over Podz but motor-wise I don't agree. Gradey looks poorly conditioned. Certainly seems to see a decline in overall play as games play out. Gradey shoots nearly 40% in the first half on threes while he shoots 32% in the second half.

I just think from college to the pros there is no comparison for on court value. Podz had a OBPM of 7.9 and DBPM 2.7 at Santa Clara and went from 1 PPG to 20 PPG in a single season. He scored from all types of spots on the floor and so far he has translated to the pros on a bubble playoff team of vets with high expectations. He is a gritty type of player and that has some meaning for me even if he is on the smaller side compared to Gradey.

Gradey has his good defensive moments but he mostly gets blown by or at least targeted by defenses. Ultimately it is a wait and see with Gradey to see what he is like over time and after he gains weight. I just worry about his mental toughness. Seeing his mom come out to visit him made me worry.

OakleyDokely wrote:He seems to be adjusting to the starting role. His last 4 games:

32.3 MIN, 17.3 PPG, .474 FG, .385 3PT, .714 FT, .574 TS

This is pretty impressive given the talent around him.

Got Nuffin wrote:

Dalek wrote:

HiJiNX wrote:Gradey is in the right place at the right time a lot. But yeah he’s looked bad since he’s playing with a bunch of guys worse than him and he doesn’t have the ability to handle the ball that Podz has.

It’s interesting that you bring up charges because when I was at the Raptors open practice one of the things the coaches brought up was how frequently Gradey was in the right position and his potential to be a guy who draws a lot of charges once he starts to get more respect from NBA refs and develops his strength. I think Gradey also leads the Raptors in charges taken but I could be wrong about that.

Ultimately, it’s hard to see where Podz gets better as a player because of his physical limitations. He’s not special athletically, not particularly explosive, not tall, and not long. He’s already a great ball handler, smart, plays hard, and a good shooter. Well, his shot could improve from inside and outside the arc, so maybe it’s not fair to say he doesn’t have a lot of room to improve. Maybe what I should be saying is I expect incremental improvements that come with experience and offseason work but I certainly don’t expect a leap of any kind.

Gradey on the other hand is 6’8 with a quick first step, great midair body control and the ability to see the floor and make the right play. His body is underdeveloped, as is his handle and his ability to hit from the midrange, and he’s currently quick enough to guard his position but not strong enough, yet while off ball he finds a way to get his hand in on deflections or tap outs etc. Gradey is also far worse than Podz as a pnr ball handler at this stage of the game.

So you’re not totally wrong in saying Podz is a better defender, rebounder, charge taker, ball handler, and pnr player than Gradey right now—all those things are true. What I’m saying is that Gradey has far superior physical tools to Podz and a level of IQ/court awareness that you rarely see from rookies. He also has a great motor. So we’re looking at a guy who has all the intangible pieces of being a great player (starter on a contender type potential) and just needs to add the skills and experience. Podz on the other hand is a guy I see as a very reliable and effective backup guard for his career, able to play on good teams, but not a needle mover or a ceiling raiser.

In essence Podz is a high floor low ceiling guy. Dick is a low floor high ceiling guy, in my opinion.

Said another way, teams aren’t really worried about stopping Podz, whereas for Gradey, even at this stage of his career, his one true NBA skill is so good that although he’s very flawed in a lot of areas, he still creates a lot of gravity simply because he’s a very good shooter. Podz will never have that sort of gravity.

Gradey does have positional size over Podz but motor-wise I don't agree. Gradey looks poorly conditioned. Certainly seems to see a decline in overall play as games play out. Gradey shoots nearly 40% in the first half on threes while he shoots 32% in the second half.

I just think from college to the pros there is no comparison for on court value. Podz had a OBPM of 7.9 and DBPM 2.7 at Santa Clara and went from 1 PPG to 20 PPG in a single season. He scored from all types of spots on the floor and so far he has translated to the pros on a bubble playoff team of vets with high expectations. He is a gritty type of player and that has some meaning for me even if he is on the smaller side compared to Gradey.

Gradey has his good defensive moments but he mostly gets blown by or at least targeted by defenses. Ultimately it is a wait and see with Gradey to see what he is like over time and after he gains weight. I just worry about his mental toughness. Seeing his mom come out to visit him made me worry.

From a pros and cons perspective of who you want to win you a game right now, it's Podz 100% no contest. He is an impact rookie which is rare. He bring defence, hustle and has an NBA-ready body strength wise. He is starting over Klay Thompson purely because of the hustle he brings - Marcus Smart style (not that it's working in their favour mind you - they have been terrible).

Why I would draft Gradey first is all upside. I see a path where Gradey COULD become a 2nd or 3rd option on a good team, which he may never get to - but you can envision it if you squint. He needs to work his tail off to get there, but there are plenty of examples of players with similar skill sets at the same age who got there.

From watching Podz I just don't see that atm no matter how he tries - but happy to be proven wrong if his ball handling etc dramatically improves and is able to better use his athleticism despite his wingspan.