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This reffing is unbelievable.

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fatal9
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#301 » by fatal9 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:35 pm

ReggieSlater wrote:I've watched every game this year. I hate people who whine about officiating. I hate when our players whine about officiating. I know there is no league mandate that says TOR should be on the ass end of calls. All that being said, in the IND game and the end of the UTAH game I think, because of a number of random factors, we got the short end of the stick as far as calls go. I have my own theory why. The two guys that seemed to be getting hacked the most and never getting calls (DeRozan and Kleiza) whined on plays where they had no business whining on. Plays where they either clearly fouled another player (Kleiza) or whined when they clearly didn't get touched (DeRozan). I think after the a while the refs get fed up with whinny players, especially when they aren't established like KG or Wade. I think Refs are influenced by stars because everyone is. They hold a bit of weight because they are so important. When Kleiza and DeRozan are out their bitching about calls they have no business bitching about the refs will just ignore them. No conspiracy. But I do think we got the short end of too many 50/50 calls.

+1

lol @ this thread. People who think FTAs should even out game to game have no idea what they are talking about. It's partly perpetuated by the commentators who are incredibly biased, Devlin acts like Raptors are getting shafted every game, Jack is a little bit fairer but he still has a bad tendency of acting like Raptors deserve every call in the paint and calls phantom travels on the other team (while staying quiet when a Raptor player does the same move). You are not only watching the game with your own team bias but you're also listening to guys who reinforce your biases. There are people who b!tch about calls here even after replays CLEARLY show otherwise. I seriously feel bad for you if you can't enjoy the game without b!tching about officiating every game.

Raptors were the worst team in the league last year at committing fouls and putting opponents on the line (highest FT/FGA ratio in the league). This isn't something that's new, Raptors struggle to play defense without fouling. That's what happens when you get a team full of bad defenders and young players who the coach is trying to make commit on that end. The perimeter guys can't stay in front of their man, the bench bigs are undersized, the roster is very young and full of poor defensive players like Bargnani who put their teammates in bad positions...that's a recipe for a lot of foul calls. Learning to play defense physically without fouling is a SKILL that veterans in this league have. Aside from the 4th quarter of the Indy game (which by the way was a road game where refs were letting contact slide on both ends all game - but it got a bit excessive late), I've had no problems with the officiating.

Regardless, refs aren't the reason your team sucks and has sucked and will continue to suck.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#302 » by ATLTimekeeper » Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:33 pm

Look at your avy. No way a delinquent Raps fan gets to chime in this thread with a check-mate. The young team/bad defense theory is just that... a theory. Not real life. Jack and Matt are going overboard because they've had it.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#303 » by vini_vidi_vici » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:00 pm

The majority of this thread is narrative rather than substance like CentreCourts earlier with his graph.

So lets hijack this thread with substance. First as I noted earlier in the thread, we were 19th (19.8) in team opponent PFs. So I thought during the week, when I have time, maybe its because of shot selection, like the narrative were a perimeter team, we dont get shots at the rim, etc.. So I began to dig abit.

http://www.hoopdata.com/teamshotlocs2.aspx
http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/team-stat/opponent-fouls-category

Immediate I noticed the Raps took 29.6% (23rd) shots at the rim, and thought like you, myth busted. But I remembered the top 5 in Opponent PFs were (LAL/Chi/Min/BK/GS), the TWolves being the highest on shots at the rim at 36.7 (5th), The Lakers only 33.6 (12th), Chi 30.6 (19th). The other 2 behind us, BK 28.1 (26th), and GS 26.3 (28th). The soft spot is they are taking to many shots from the perimeter, but I dont think you can make that leap that because you shoot from the outside, you dont get calls, because it seems to go both extremes. Den takes 40%, Hou takes 39.1% (1st/2nd) at the rim, yet both are below us in terms of getting fouled, at 22nd (19.4) and 28th (19.0) respectively. Sorry for numbers, it gets confusing. None of this accounted for pace, fast break pts, etc.. which would help but im doing the best I can.

So heres where im forced to talk defense and fouling.

http://www.hoopdata.com/oteamshotlocs2.aspx

They give up 34.0% of the opponents shots at the rim, good for 9th. But look at some of the better defensive teams ahead of them, Mem 37.1% (2nd), 34.3% (7th). And conversely, the team that gives up the least amount of shots at the rim, GSW 26.7% is improving their D, but I dont think they are elite IMO. There is a good a correlation between giving up shots at the rim and fouling, but in most cases everyone is within 3 shots/per game. Looking at the raw(er) numbers here, I noticed the Raps give pretty much a hair under the league average ATT at the rim per game though (25.6/25.8 NBA average). I would do more but im lazy.

My issue isnt so much the officiating (I guess it is), its the rules. Too much is subjective and left up to interpretation, this goes for all sports. You could almost literally call the hand checking rule every time down the floor in the post, or perimeter. Holding in football, etc.. When it affects any team youre watching its unbearable, this goes for any team, think how Kings fans feel after reading Donaghys book, legitimate or not.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#304 » by Phalosopher » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:54 pm

Officiating for today game was fine. I guess word must have been leaked to the right places. Keep it up if the pattern restarts. And vvv do not overthink it. As Marx brother groucho said it "who are u going to believe ..me or your own lying eyes :D
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#305 » by Chaos Engine » Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:16 pm

Boston's gamethread was furious about the reffing.

Let's face it,every fanbase thinks the refs are out to get them, even Mia/LA/Bos
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#306 » by Crazy-Canuck » Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:32 pm

Chaos Engine wrote:Boston's gamethread was furious about the reffing.

Let's face it,every fanbase thinks the refs are out to get them, even Mia/LA/Bos


Every game is poorly officated if your a fan of a team that is used to getting 90% of the calls and then only gets about 50%.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#307 » by Too Late Crew » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:02 pm

Raptors shot 60% more Fts than the Celtics today. I expect that the refs may find a severed horse's head in their beds tonight courtesy of Stern.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#308 » by Gibby » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:45 pm

The refs need to let them bang, bro.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#309 » by Thelonious » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:43 pm

Celtics didn't need the refs to win this one. They didn't even need the win.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#310 » by Coach Smiley » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:46 pm

Too Late Crew wrote:Raptors shot 60% more Fts than the Celtics today. I expect that the refs may find a severed horse's head in their beds tonight courtesy of Stern.


well then we must have won the game, you know, because the refs are the reason we've been losing right?
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#311 » by Metallikid » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:30 am

Coach Smiley wrote:
well then we must have won the game, you know, because the refs are the reason we've been losing right?


It's a lot different when the game is close. It's easy to officiate fairly when we were losing by double digits almost the entire game.

Notice how we lost and didn't complain about the reffing because there was nothing to complain about this time?

We won in Indiana and people were still upset because it's was obviously poor and slanted.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#312 » by zozo23 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:27 am

You just have to compare Olympic tournament and NBA and it's clear that NBA referees have agenda how to make superstars untouchable, because David Stern knows that superstars are bringing huge profit to the leauge. Lot of times it is unwatchable. You have lot of teams teams that have hard time attracting free agents must overpaying scrubs and on top of that getting phantoms calls most of nights.

Unfortunately NBA is for a while less sport and more WWE, just ask fans in Sacramento how they feel.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#313 » by Volcano » Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:25 am

Coincidentally, Raptors win the FT battle after the reffing situation was brought to the league's attention. You've got to be pretty dumb to believe that the reffing wasn't off.

You're even dumber to connect sucking and reffing together.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#314 » by MEDIC » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:07 pm

It's funny how when you play a crappy team, fouls seem to get called as they should be called. When you play an elite team, the game seems to be called in a biased manner.

During todays game I felt that a foul was a foul. Derozan didn't get jobbed like he normally does. I didn't find myself yelling at the TV asking how the hell the refs missed our guy getting clobbered.

The NBA is definitely a league of haves & have nots.

I would absolutely love to see a study done on this.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#315 » by AcesFull » Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:14 am

MEDIC wrote:It's funny how when you play a crappy team, fouls seem to get called as they should be called. When you play an elite team, the game seems to be called in a biased manner.

During todays game I felt that a foul was a foul. Derozan didn't get jobbed like he normally does. I didn't find myself yelling at the TV asking how the hell the refs missed our guy getting clobbered.

The NBA is definitely a league of haves & have nots.

I would absolutely love to see a study done on this.


We should keep track of the refs for this game and see if there is consistency with their performance over time and how it compares to the refs who jobbed us in the past. Maybe the answer is that the same refs were involved in past games this year with poor officiating.. not sure, haven't checked, but would be interesting to find out.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#316 » by theSkinny » Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:24 am

I got to chat with Tab McKechnie at a SSH event.. This is a snippet from that conversation.

Me:
"The Raptors have never been good at getting the refs to call it fair"

Tab:
"Tell me about it, i said to Case that in L.A I never had this as an issue.. He said he never did either in Dallas.. It's a difficult thing to overcome."


This is a true story, everyone recognizes it on the team, but until the players overcome it.. There really isn't anything you can do about it except forcing the refs to blow their whistle.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#317 » by chimpston17 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:50 am

fatal9 wrote:
ReggieSlater wrote:I've watched every game this year. I hate people who whine about officiating. I hate when our players whine about officiating. I know there is no league mandate that says TOR should be on the ass end of calls. All that being said, in the IND game and the end of the UTAH game I think, because of a number of random factors, we got the short end of the stick as far as calls go. I have my own theory why. The two guys that seemed to be getting hacked the most and never getting calls (DeRozan and Kleiza) whined on plays where they had no business whining on. Plays where they either clearly fouled another player (Kleiza) or whined when they clearly didn't get touched (DeRozan). I think after the a while the refs get fed up with whinny players, especially when they aren't established like KG or Wade. I think Refs are influenced by stars because everyone is. They hold a bit of weight because they are so important. When Kleiza and DeRozan are out their bitching about calls they have no business bitching about the refs will just ignore them. No conspiracy. But I do think we got the short end of too many 50/50 calls.

+1

lol @ this thread. People who think FTAs should even out game to game have no idea what they are talking about. It's partly perpetuated by the commentators who are incredibly biased, Devlin acts like Raptors are getting shafted every game, Jack is a little bit fairer but he still has a bad tendency of acting like Raptors deserve every call in the paint and calls phantom travels on the other team (while staying quiet when a Raptor player does the same move). You are not only watching the game with your own team bias but you're also listening to guys who reinforce your biases. There are people who b!tch about calls here even after replays CLEARLY show otherwise. I seriously feel bad for you if you can't enjoy the game without b!tching about officiating every game.

Raptors were the worst team in the league last year at committing fouls and putting opponents on the line (highest FT/FGA ratio in the league). This isn't something that's new, Raptors struggle to play defense without fouling. That's what happens when you get a team full of bad defenders and young players who the coach is trying to make commit on that end. The perimeter guys can't stay in front of their man, the bench bigs are undersized, the roster is very young and full of poor defensive players like Bargnani who put their teammates in bad positions...that's a recipe for a lot of foul calls. Learning to play defense physically without fouling is a SKILL that veterans in this league have. Aside from the 4th quarter of the Indy game (which by the way was a road game where refs were letting contact slide on both ends all game - but it got a bit excessive late), I've had no problems with the officiating.

Regardless, refs aren't the reason your team sucks and has sucked and will continue to suck.


lol I take it you haven't watched the games. The last two games actually I haven't had a problem with but before that it was terrible. I don't need Devlin to tell me what a foul is. And I'm not just going on stats, I'm watching the games and seeing raptor players get hammered with no calls and other teams getting alot more calls in the same situation.

I was at the home opener and it was like NBA Jam defense out there for the pacers the could knock guys out of the air with their body and there was no call. I don't need you to tell me Bargnani is a poor defensive player, we all know. When you actually watch the games it's pretty clear something has been pretty uneven with the officiating
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#318 » by MEDIC » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:57 am

theSkinny wrote:I got to chat with Tab McKechnie at a SSH event.. This is a snippet from that conversation.

Me:
"The Raptors have never been good at getting the refs to call it fair"

Tab:
"Tell me about it, i said to Case that in L.A I never had this as an issue.. He said he never did either in Dallas.. It's a difficult thing to overcome."


This is a true story, everyone recognizes it on the team, but until the players overcome it.. There really isn't anything you can do about it except forcing the refs to blow their whistle.


Yup, they all know it. It's almost like it's the NBA's "dirty little secret". Players have made similar comments in the past when going from contender to a bottom feeder.

No idea why more organizations aren't more vocal about it. I guess if you're a bottom feeder trying to get a high draft pick, why would you complain. The more losses the better.

When you're a team actually trying to squeak into the playoffs, it actually becomes a big issue.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#319 » by ItsDanger » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:09 am

One thing I have noticed is that players on better teams complain a LOT more than our players do.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#320 » by Clutch Carter » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:24 am

Raps complain to league, the trend gets reversed... hmmmmm...

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