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This reffing is unbelievable.

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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#361 » by pspot » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:33 pm

could they have reviewed the last play?
I thought the whole point of the video review in the last 2 mins was for situations like this
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#362 » by Truthrising » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:40 pm

Seriously BC has to pull a Cuban and tell Mr Stern to call plays fairly otherwise call him out and mentioned that this league is rigged

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pikd-9qqQ1c&feature=g-hist[/youtube]
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#363 » by lobosloboslobos » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:58 pm

^ that video is kind of cheezy, though it has a few interesting clips. This one is more in-depth:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5914330n

There are some silly comments below it but this one is bang on:

"I don't think I stated it clearly earlier. But basically if Tim knows the outcome of a game with 80% confidence by just knowing the guys reffing the game, you KNOW that the league knows the outcome of the game too. And they are the ones choosing the refs, so they are the ones choosing the outcomes. The fix is in."
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#364 » by Too Late Crew » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:59 pm

pspot wrote:could they have reviewed the last play?
I thought the whole point of the video review in the last 2 mins was for situations like this

They cannot review plays for fouls.

They can review to see if its a 3 or a 2,out of bounds or shot before the buzzer.
Refs need to make calls in a split second from what they see on the floor. They don't get to look at the plays from multiple angles in slow motion to determine if its a foul.


Those are the rules and they honestly make sense.

That said I'd be all for the idea of an NFL like "Challenge" system where a team gets one "challenge" per game . If the challenge is upheld the play is overturned. If its not the other team gets two technical free throws and possession. Thus discouraging frivolousness.

We all can rewind the game on a DVR and dissect every call and its inevitable that some of them are wrong. But unless you want all games to be 6 hours long while they review every call you have to accept that humans wilkl call the game and make mistakes.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#365 » by Los Manos » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:01 pm

I don't believe the NBA is rigged. It's just full of incompetent refs who aren't held accountable for their poor decision making. If the NBA don't go the route of handing out warnings or even suspensions to the referees then at least they need to be open with the public as to what assessment processes are used. It shouldn't be a refs club where once you're in, you're assumed to be competent for the rest of your life. The public don't need to know the rankings, they can keep that private if they choose but it would be nice to hear that they are at least tracking the decision making capabilities of their referees seeing as their competency can be judged on little else. It's what most sports leagues do and it's time the NBA caught up.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#366 » by Thelonious » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:02 pm

pspot wrote:could they have reviewed the last play?
I thought the whole point of the video review in the last 2 mins was for situations like this

Unfortunately, it doesn't. You can review certain made calls, but you cannot review non-calls.

Plus, a shooting foul isn't something they can review anyway. If they called one, and realized there wasn't any, what do they do? Jump ball? Why not, but today there is nothing laid down in terms of addressing this kind of pathetic display.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#367 » by Los Manos » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:08 pm

Yeah I can't see an overall enhancement of the game if the refs are allowed to re-assess fouls in the last 2 minutes with instant replay. But when the refs get it wrong, it wouldn't hurt the NBA's standing to be more open and not have this unspoken, apparent blanket ban across it's own media channels in calling it how it is, all to 'protect' their referees who have directly affected the outcome of a game. If the NBA exhibited the same integrity themselves as they are now demanding of their players then the league would be far better off.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#368 » by JN » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:38 pm

Devlin yelling Hack does not actually mean there was a foul.

Nothing on Derozan's drive or follow up or swipre was a conclusive foul. Devlin yelled Hack, when all Demar did was throw up some weak **** against Biyombo. What the hell do you think will happen.

That being said, not much to arguw on the Bargs shot. It was a cut and dry foul, and even though it was touchy that type of stuff does tend to get called in the closing minute because it in the wide open.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#369 » by lobosloboslobos » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:50 pm

I think this thread turns on whether or not there is any reason to believe that refs sometimes call games with bias. Arguing about this call or that call, or even this game or that game is never going to be conclusive.

I have made several arguments and offered some evidence to support the idea that refs do sometime operate with bias. Would the posters who disagree please address this point:

- The FBI and 60 Minutes confirmed that Tim Donaghy was consistently able to win approximately 75% of his bets about who was going to win an NBA game that he did not ref based only on his knowledge of who was reffing the game. How did he did this if there is no bias?

Note that a 75% success rate in gambling on win/loss is astronomically high.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#370 » by McFurious1 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:06 pm

lobosloboslobos wrote:^ that video is kind of cheezy, though it has a few interesting clips. This one is more in-depth:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5914330n

There are some silly comments below it but this one is bang on:

"I don't think I stated it clearly earlier. But basically if Tim knows the outcome of a game with 80% confidence by just knowing the guys reffing the game, you KNOW that the league knows the outcome of the game too. And they are the ones choosing the refs, so they are the ones choosing the outcomes. The fix is in."


How this fact hasn't been exposed further is beyond me.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#371 » by Too Late Crew » Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:16 pm

lobosloboslobos wrote:I think this thread turns on whether or not there is any reason to believe that refs sometimes call games with bias. Arguing about this call or that call, or even this game or that game is never going to be conclusive.

I have made several arguments and offered some evidence to support the idea that refs do sometime operate with bias. Would the posters who disagree please address this point:

- The FBI and 60 Minutes confirmed that Tim Donaghy was consistently able to win approximately 75% of his bets about who was going to win an NBA game that he did not ref based only on his knowledge of who was reffing the game. How did he did this if there is no bias?

Note that a 75% success rate in gambling on win/loss is astronomically high.


If the argument is being made that games are being fixed for gambling purposes then that's a legit theory.

How does that play into the Raptors having a bias against them. Once again I'm not discounting the idea that refs could be fixing games for gambling. Just curious as to why they would use consistent bias against one particular team in Toronto to do so.

If we want to operate on a theory that the Raptors are being penalized by calls for the purposes of gambling then lest examine that theory. I'm open to that.

I honestly don't know a lot about gambling so maybe someone else can help me understand if there is a pattern in the Rapos versus the spread or why it would be beneficial to pick on one team for bad calls every game rather than to spread the bias out sometimes for and sometimes against so as to make it less apparent.

I am 100% serious. I am not being sarcatic I am open to having a gambling as a basis for anti Raptor bias proven

A lot more open than a theory of Stern hates Canada at least.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#372 » by Scase » Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:43 pm

lobosloboslobos wrote:I think this thread turns on whether or not there is any reason to believe that refs sometimes call games with bias. Arguing about this call or that call, or even this game or that game is never going to be conclusive.

I have made several arguments and offered some evidence to support the idea that refs do sometime operate with bias. Would the posters who disagree please address this point:

- The FBI and 60 Minutes confirmed that Tim Donaghy was consistently able to win approximately 75% of his bets about who was going to win an NBA game that he did not ref based only on his knowledge of who was reffing the game. How did he did this if there is no bias?

Note that a 75% success rate in gambling on win/loss is astronomically high.

This is what I was going to mention myself. People can sht on Donaghy all they want saying he's a crook and you can't believe/trust anything he says. You CAN however trust the numbers. There is no one who can predict winners 70-80% on sheer luck for a sample size that large, it's just not statistically possible without some form of insider information.

Even something as simple as "star" calls or biases towards players one way or another can go a long way into predicting who will win. Nor are things like that really THAT hard to believe as they are way into the realm of possibility and likelihood.

So whether or not people want to admit that games are straight up called biased for a specific winner or not is irrelevant but, no one with a straight face can say that there isn't unintentional bias at the very least.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#373 » by alpharay » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:12 pm

Stern and gang are creating gambling odds. It's very easy when you have some refs as insiders. Like Tim Donaghy who once was but committed the street code sin and became a rat. Old saying you all know how it goes...if you are going to do the crime...

As you know you make good money in gambling when you win picking the underdog and big money if you pick a bottom team over a top 5 team. Unfortunately Stern has classified us as the league bottom feeders.

Establishing bottom feeder is beneficial to the insider because this will allow the insiders to make big money without the public knowing. This is accomplished by the league gives us a few games against the top 5 teams.
So what would you do if you knew Toronto were going to beat Miami, Boston or the Lakers and the major was beating against Toronto? Beat heavy on the underdog Toronto right? Of course it not always going to result in victories but getting it right 70-80% of the time is money..

...better than stocks and faster

Since the season is still new the NBA is still establishing us as bottom feeders for example all the non-calls. The insiders will make more money in the second half of the season when all teams position is pretty much established.

NBA = Stock Market

NBA is not the only sport that plays and establish betting odds Boxing has been doing it much longer. Because of the internet and recording media it's harder for them to hide it. Actually I don't think they give a **** if ppl know. As longs as the major thinks it's legit they will continue make money playing the betting game.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#374 » by dacrusha » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:21 pm

lobosloboslobos wrote:
dacrusha wrote:
Peezy wrote:
Dude, you don't get it yet. The league tells the refs how to call the games. its not the refs rigging the games its the league. who makes profit from people gambling.


Yeah right.

And if the league really wanted to make money via its gambling endeavours, it would make sure that the underdog got calls to win games... like last night's underdog, the Raptors.


Are you for real? You're using one game as a measure of this? On top of that, if we were the underdog last night and we lost by one point we almost surely beat the spread, which is what gamblers care about. Although it seems most serious gamblers play the over/under in the NBA anyway, which is much easier to influence as a ref than who wins and by how much. But either way one game isn't the point. we have lots of evidence based on donachy's testimony and statistical analysis that certain refs deliver certain kinds of results, wither it is for gambling purposes or because the NBA wants them to.

For example, in game 6 of the San Antonio series with OKC last year, at home in OKC, the NBA assigned the ref who was #1 in home team wins out of all refs in the league PLUS it assigned Joey Crawford, the only ref in the league to have been suspended for actively calling games unfairly against one team - and who was that team? San Antonio. And you want us to believe that that happened BY CHANCE? That it was a fluke? smh

EDIT: To be clear, if you took all 65 NBA refs and listed them in order of the most to the least statistically and strategically likely to deliver an OKC win, the NBA chose the #1 and #2 refs on that list to work the game. Do you think that this may have happened intentionally or do you think it was a fluke? Can you think of any reason why the NBA would have wanted OKC to win? (especially given that Boston was at that time leading Miami 3-2 and the NBA risked having two old boring and low-drawing teams make the finals by knocking out the two young superstars-on-the-rise high-drawing and highly marketable teams?)


Your post, with all of its rigour and passion, just proves how preposterous it is even begin to guess that the NBA executive has a betting interest in the outcomes of its games. It would take thousands upon thousands of people with knowledge of the scam to coordinate... each and everyone of them shutting their mouths from the lowliest refs and armchair bookies on up to the league brass including David Stern himself.

No, I think a more realistic approach to explain the Raptors 4th quarter meltdowns is to admit that they just plain choke under pressure.

Last night they had, what, 6 chances to tie it in the waning seconds? A betting man would gladly take the extreme probability of scoring in that advantageous situation even with a ref's missed call thrown in.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#375 » by Thelonious » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:31 pm

The betting explanation is plausible enough I guess, but I never believed it to be the reason.

To me, it's a combination of two things.

One, the league office trying to build an environment of superteams, exciting underdog stories, dramatic playoff scenarios, feel good david vs goliath stories when possible, etc... Think WWE.

And two, referees colluding with certain teams in order officiate further into the playoffs.


While I know betting on corrupt sports is great for money laundering, mafias tend to pick low level leagues in remote countries for that, especially since the boom in internet betting and all the possibilities. I don't believe Stern is involved in something like this. To me it's more a case of maximizing profits at the expense of the game of basketball.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#376 » by alpharay » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:44 pm

Your post, with all of its rigour and passion, just proves how preposterous it is even begin to guess that the NBA executive has a betting interest in the outcomes of its games. It would take thousands upon thousands of people with knowledge of the scam to coordinate... each and everyone of them shutting their mouths from the lowliest refs and armchair bookies on up to the league brass including David Stern himself.

/quote No, I think a more realistic approach to explain the Raptors 4th quarter meltdowns is to admit that they just plain choke under pressure.

Last night they had, what, 6 chances to tie it in the waning seconds? A betting man would gladly take the extreme probability of scoring in that advantageous situation even with a ref's missed call thrown in.[/quote]


Then how did Boxing get away with it for decades? and Boxing is a professional intentional sport. They also have refs and armchair bookies and commissioner and thousand on top of thousand of people watching.

I don't believe every game is fixed just like every boxing match is not fixed. But they are some that are fixed and the goal is to know which ones are and capitalize on it by making the right bet.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#377 » by lobosloboslobos » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:10 pm

alpharay wrote:
Then how did Boxing get away with it for decades? and Boxing is a professional intentional sport. They also have refs and armchair bookies and commissioner and thousand on top of thousand of people watching.

I don't believe every game is fixed just like every boxing match is not fixed. But they are some that are fixed and the goal is to know which ones are and capitalize on it by making the right bet.


Exactly. What about Olympic sports? Are they not under scrutiny? Several of them have been exposed as highly corrupt, including hugely popular ones like figure skating. Is that high profile enough for you? How about Lance Armstrong and the doping in cycling that was covered up for many years? How about how major league baseball was massively distorted by PEDs under the watchful eyes of its commissioners? How about Soccer for god's sake? Are you aware that some of the world's most popular sports leagues have been shown to be rife with corruption?

And fyi I am not even personally arguing that gambling is the primary reason for the bias. I think it may be a factor but I know every little about it and am not really able to make many judgements about it, although I do listen when 60 minutes and the FBI talk. But what I am arguing is that there are MANY possible situations in which sporting results are influenced by bias of one kind or another, and for me that includes league bias manifested in biased reffing for business or other purposes, including personal vendettas.

DaCrusha, I don't really understand your argument to my post. Did you watch the 60 minutes clip and see the the discussion and evidence about Allan Iverson? Do you think the FBI is lying when they say Donaghy is NOT lying? Could you answer my question about whether you think it is a fluke that the NBA chose the 2 refs most likely to deliver an OKC victory over SA last year at the exact moment when business logic would suggest it was extremely important for the league for OKC to win? (Lebron had not won a ring yet, and if the Heat had lost the next game the negativity about lebron would have been huge, and potentially he might never have won one for all we or anyone would have known, making it all the more important that there be at least one young marquee star to live up to his hype and carry the mantle of marketable league superstar and champion forward. And if you think the CEO of a multi-billion dollar business built on marketing superstars does not think about such things you are really...well I don't know...naive I guess.)

edit: BTW I am not trying to blame all of the Raptors losses on the refs, nor all of their 4th quarter meltdowns. but just because they can't play better doesn't mean they aren't also getting jobbed.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#378 » by Courtside » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:24 pm

Too Late Crew wrote:
lobosloboslobos wrote:The FBI and 60 Minutes confirmed that Tim Donaghy was consistently able to win approximately 75% of his bets about who was going to win an NBA game that he did not ref based only on his knowledge of who was reffing the game. How did he did this if there is no bias?

Note that a 75% success rate in gambling on win/loss is astronomically high.


If the argument is being made that games are being fixed for gambling purposes then that's a legit theory.

How does that play into the Raptors having a bias against them. Once again I'm not discounting the idea that refs could be fixing games for gambling. Just curious as to why they would use consistent bias against one particular team in Toronto to do so.

I don't think it;s being suggested that games are being fixed for gambling - he's saying that certain gamblers (ie Donaghy) are able to predict the outcome of games with abnormally high accuracy, not because of any knowledge of the teams or players, but from knowledge about the refs and their biases.

The question about whether a Toronto bias, or coach, or player, or no star, or lotto team bias exists is a separate discussion that you tried to pour cold water on in the other thread you started. It's not something any outsider can prove or pinpoint, but the fact that an insider can (ie Donaghy) means that it is in fact a real phenomenon.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#379 » by JN » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:48 pm

The 75% comment was not validated by 60 Minutes or the FBI. How can we dispute something that is inaccurate. It was merely a comment made by Tim Donaghy on 60 minutes. Some fake tough guy talking **** basically.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#380 » by dagger » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:51 pm

It's interesting how the media today is almost unanimous about how the Raps got the raw end last night and so far this season in general.

Usually, they are lecturing the fans not to put so much emphasis on the officiating, but pretty much all of the writers and bloggers - from Koreen to Liston to Chisholm - are on the bandwagon, especially after last night.

Here's another example.

http://blogs.thescore.com/raptorblog/20 ... rs-so-far/

Now don’t get me wrong, the Raptors haven’t played well enough overall to have a much better record than the 3-9 mark they currently sport, and they’ve done their fair share of shooting themselves in the foot. After all, their free throw shooting has gone cold over the last four games, with the team missing some big time attempts from the charity stripe against the Sixers on Tuesday and DeMar DeRozan missing one of his two free throws in the final minute against the Bobcats on Wednesday.
If Lowry hits more of his fourth quarter free throws against Philly, maybe the Raptors hold off the 76ers’ rally. If DeRozan makes both of his free throws with 47 seconds left last night instead of just one, the game ends up in overtime, even with the blown call on the final play.
Anyone who thinks the officiating alone is the reason the Raptors are 3-9 right now is delusional, and is giving this team too much credit. But having said that, anyone who has watched the Raptors play this season and still thinks the officiating hasn’t contributed to the poor start at all is just as delusional.
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