This reffing is unbelievable.

[Too Late Crew]

Yeah, everyone is wrong except for you. Even Brian Colangelo and his whole staff are wrong for calling the league into question about the reffing TWICE. Jack Armstrong, Matt Devlin everyone is wrong except for you. Tell us more about how you passed a 3 hour certification course and reffed elementary school ball

Yeah - a 3 hour certification course.

Except I had to get over 86% on the IAABO written test and over 90% on my floor test, administered by my local board's interpreter.

At my highest level, before I had to stop due to my cancer issues, I was starting to do university womens' games. But yeah - I just took a 3 hour course. And I don't watch the games. And Matt Devlin and Leo Rautins and Jack Armstrong who scream about block/charges issues they aren't even CLOSE to understanding properly know better. For sure.

You and this Too Late Crew guy are refs and say the refs arent biased. The other side of Raptors homers say they are biased. Each side has their obvious bias. Can we meet half-way and say the Raptors have been on the receiving end so far of some poor officiating? Or should we stay Republican and refuse to give an inch?[/quote]

You are misquoting me (at least I can't speak for Boris)

There IS ref Bias. I'm simply stating that the BIas is neither concious nor is it specifically directed at Toronto.

The refs are not biased because a player has a Raptors uniform on plain and simple.

[Baester]

You and this Too Late Crew guy are refs and say the refs arent biased. The other side of Raptors homers say they are biased. Each side has their obvious bias. Can we meet half-way and say the Raptors have been on the receiving end so far of some poor officiating? Or should we stay Republican and refuse to give an inch?

You are misquoting me (at least I can't speak for Boris)

There IS ref Bias. I'm simply stating that the BIas is neither concious nor is it specifically directed at Toronto.

The refs are not biased because a player has a Raptors uniform on plain and simple.

Okay, but again, can you agree that the Raptors have been on the receiving end so far of some poor officiating? That this ref bias has shown up in multiple Raptors games thus far?

[Too Late Crew]

You and this Too Late Crew guy are refs and say the refs arent biased. The other side of Raptors homers say they are biased. Each side has their obvious bias. Can we meet half-way and say the Raptors have been on the receiving end so far of some poor officiating? Or should we stay Republican and refuse to give an inch?

You are misquoting me (at least I can't speak for Boris)

There IS ref Bias. I'm simply stating that the BIas is neither concious nor is it specifically directed at Toronto.

The refs are not biased because a player has a Raptors uniform on plain and simple.

Okay, but again, can you agree that the Raptors have been on the receiving end so far of some poor officiating? That this ref bias has shown up in multiple Raptors games thus far?

The Raptors have had some bad calls made against them. Agree
The Raptors have made some bad calls made in their favour.

The Raptors have a bad team. They have a rookie centre who doesn't know the NBA or isn't strong yet, they have a PG who has never been able to stay in front of anyone, they have a PF who is one of the worst team defenders and rebounders in the NBA. Because of this they commit a lot of fouls. They put themselves in a situation where they are more likely to commit a foul.

I'm sorry I just am not seeing what others are seeing. I don't sit there and keep count of how many missed calls the other team gets and how many the Raptors get. Frankly I don't expect it to be equal.

The Raptors IMO create more foul call situations because they are poor on D. They creates LESS opportunity for them to draw fouls because they have 2 starters who don't get to the rim and shoot jumpers.

Bias or no Bias Wade is going to put himself in a situation where a foul could be called 20 times a game because he drives relentlessly. Jose is going to put himself in that situation 2 times a game. Its a volume thing and I just don't see the "bias" I see inequality but that's not the same as concious bias.

[roundhead0]

The Raptors have had some bad calls made against them. Agree
The Raptors have made some bad calls made in their favour.

The Raptors have a bad team. They have a rookie centre who doesn't know the NBA or isn't strong yet, they have a PG who has never been able to stay in front of anyone, they have a PF who is one of the worst team defenders and rebounders in the NBA. Because of this they commit a lot of fouls. They put themselves in a situation where they are more likely to commit a foul.

I'm sorry I just am not seeing what others are seeing. I don't sit there and keep count of how many missed calls the other team gets and how many the Raptors get. Frankly I don't expect it to be equal.

The Raptors IMO create more foul call situations because they are poor on D. They creates LESS opportunity for them to draw fouls because they have 2 starters who don't get to the rim and shoot jumpers.

Bias or no Bias Wade is going to put himself in a situation where a foul could be called 20 times a game because he drives relentlessly. Jose is going to put himself in that situation 2 times a game. Its a volume thing and I just don't see the "bias" I see inequality but that's not the same as concious bias.

None of this explains the most obvious issue: Derozan. He's not a rookie. He has gotten foul calls in the past. He's been very aggressive and consistent going to the hoop. He's getting hit frequently and missing shots as a result. He really should have got sent to the line several more times in each of the past few games.

Add that on top of the issues with other players and it's very, very puzzling. The refs are letting a bit more go uncalled this year, but based on what Raps opposition gets calls for and based on other games I have watched, not nearly to this extent. One game here or there you can understand. But this is becoming a disturbing pattern.

[BorisDK1]

All right, Boris, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think you actually understood what I was trying to get at at all unfortunately.

And if that's ad hominem (just looked it up) so be it. It's also true.

Well, argumentum ad hominem is logically fallacious and not all cogent; so it's not at all helpful in this conversation. It's just not something thoughtful people should utilize, and yes, I do consider you to be a normally thoughtful person (from what I've read). But you make personal attacks instead of dealing with things people are saying, and it's not becoming of thoughtful dialogue.

If I misunderstood you, I do apologize. Can you please clarify what I failed to address?

[Too Late Crew]

None of this explains the most obvious issue: Derozan. He's not a rookie. He has gotten foul calls in the past. He's been very aggressive and consistent going to the hoop. He's getting hit frequently and missing shots as a result. He really should have got sent to the line several more times in each of the past few games.

Add that on top of the issues with other players and it's very, very puzzling. The refs are letting a bit more go uncalled this year, but based on what Raps opposition gets calls for and based on other games I have watched, not nearly to this extent. One game here or there you can understand. But this is becoming a disturbing pattern.

WHen someone does an end to end video review (similar to what Boris does) and comes up with at a someone supported statistical argument that the Raptors are getting more incorrect calls than other teams I will be happy to change my opinion.

We talk about ref bias but we as fans have bias even if its not concious. The video is all there if its truly an issue I see no reason why someone couldn't take 10 games worth of video and make a compelling case either way.

[BorisDK1]

You are misquoting me (at least I can't speak for Boris)

There IS ref Bias. I'm simply stating that the BIas is neither concious nor is it specifically directed at Toronto.

The refs are not biased because a player has a Raptors uniform on plain and simple.

That's a not an inaccurate statement, although it's a far less nefarious idea than most people here imagine.

All officials (should) try to be aware of game situations: score, time remaining, probable offensive and defensive actions they'll see and be prepared to the greatest extent possible. For instance, in a game where it's in the last 30 seconds, it's a one-possession game and the team with the ball is trailing, and the opposing team has played zone all game, you know that you're really going to have to watch out for teams trying to load up on the weak side of the paint to prepare for an offensive rebound. So you know that 3 second violations and fouls in offensive rebounding are going to be key. And maybe there's a big, slow kid who's offensively limited but who is a lot bigger and stronger than the opponents; well, guess who's going to get watched more than anybody else? That's not even wrong, IMO; it's natural.

They should also be aware of who the key players are for each team and what the foul situation is like for them. If Johnny Superstar for one team is the team's lead ballhandler and scorer and the entire offense goes through him, and he has (say) three fouls at the start of the third quarter. Well, you'd probably better not screw up the next foul call on him. That is NOT to say you don't call a foul if it is a foul; you always call what you see with integrity. But it IS to say that you definitely do NOT want to call a foul on him which was NOT a foul. Now, if he does go and foul somebody - tough. Foul #4. But if he contests a shot and makes contact on the shooter's hand well after the ball is gone, you'd better not call that a foul. You'd best not call it a foul anyway (unless it somehow affects offensive rebounding coverage) no matter who does it, but you had REALLY better not call it then.

So there is some bias in officiating. Is it completely blown out of proportion on this thread? I'd say so.

[ReggieSlater]

I've watched every game this year. I hate people who whine about officiating. I hate when our players whine about officiating. I know there is no league mandate that says TOR should be on the ass end of calls. All that being said, in the IND game and the end of the UTAH game I think, because of a number of random factors, we got the short end of the stick as far as calls go. I have my own theory why. The two guys that seemed to be getting hacked the most and never getting calls (DeRozan and Kleiza) whined on plays where they had no business whining on. Plays where they either clearly fouled another player (Kleiza) or whined when they clearly didn't get touched (DeRozan). I think after the a while the refs get fed up with whinny players, especially when they aren't established like KG or Wade. I think Refs are influenced by stars because everyone is. They hold a bit of weight because they are so important. When Kleiza and DeRozan are out their bitching about calls they have no business bitching about the refs will just ignore them. No conspiracy. But I do think we got the short end of too many 50/50 calls.

[ATLTimekeeper]

WHen someone does an end to end video review (similar to what Boris does) and comes up with at a someone supported statistical argument that the Raptors are getting more incorrect calls than other teams I will be happy to change my opinion.

We talk about ref bias but we as fans have bias even if its not concious. The video is all there if its truly an issue I see no reason why someone couldn't take 10 games worth of video and make a compelling case either way.

So then go do that.

[dacrusha]

I've watched every game this year. I hate people who whine about officiating. I hate when our players whine about officiating. I know there is no league mandate that says TOR should be on the ass end of calls. All that being said, in the IND game and the end of the UTAH game I think, because of a number of random factors, we got the short end of the stick as far as calls go. I have my own theory why. The two guys that seemed to be getting hacked the most and never getting calls (DeRozan and Kleiza) whined on plays where they had no business whining on. Plays where they either clearly fouled another player (Kleiza) or whined when they clearly didn't get touched (DeRozan). I think after the a while the refs get fed up with whinny players, especially when they aren't established like KG or Wade. I think Refs are influenced by stars because everyone is. They hold a bit of weight because they are so important. When Kleiza and DeRozan are out their bitching about calls they have no business bitching about the refs will just ignore them. No conspiracy. But I do think we got the short end of too many 50/50 calls.

Great, so we're were on the short end of a couple of calls.

Still doesn't come close to explaining how we blew double digit leads late in each of those games.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I've watched every game this year. I hate people who whine about officiating. I hate when our players whine about officiating. I know there is no league mandate that says TOR should be on the ass end of calls. All that being said, in the IND game and the end of the UTAH game I think, because of a number of random factors, we got the short end of the stick as far as calls go. I have my own theory why. The two guys that seemed to be getting hacked the most and never getting calls (DeRozan and Kleiza) whined on plays where they had no business whining on. Plays where they either clearly fouled another player (Kleiza) or whined when they clearly didn't get touched (DeRozan). I think after the a while the refs get fed up with whinny players, especially when they aren't established like KG or Wade. I think Refs are influenced by stars because everyone is. They hold a bit of weight because they are so important. When Kleiza and DeRozan are out their bitching about calls they have no business bitching about the refs will just ignore them. No conspiracy. But I do think we got the short end of too many 50/50 calls.

Great, so we're were on the short end of a couple of calls.

Still doesn't come close to explaining how we blew double digit leads late in each of those games.

Wait, why is that the consensus opinion?

[Too Late Crew]

WHen someone does an end to end video review (similar to what Boris does) and comes up with at a someone supported statistical argument that the Raptors are getting more incorrect calls than other teams I will be happy to change my opinion.

We talk about ref bias but we as fans have bias even if its not concious. The video is all there if its truly an issue I see no reason why someone couldn't take 10 games worth of video and make a compelling case either way.

So then go do that.

Why?

I am not the one proposing conspiracy theories.

I don't think there is anything wrong. Why would I go do a study to prove everything is normal?

[ATLTimekeeper]

WHen someone does an end to end video review (similar to what Boris does) and comes up with at a someone supported statistical argument that the Raptors are getting more incorrect calls than other teams I will be happy to change my opinion.

We talk about ref bias but we as fans have bias even if its not concious. The video is all there if its truly an issue I see no reason why someone couldn't take 10 games worth of video and make a compelling case either way.

So then go do that.

Why?

I am not the one proposing conspiracy theories.

I don't think there is anything wrong. Why would I go do a study to prove everything is normal?

You've got the solution. Dig it up yourself. Otherwise let's go with majority rules.

[BorisDK1]

You've got the solution. Dig it up yourself. Otherwise let's go with majority rules.

So if enough people with no basis of knowledge of officiating rules, interpretations or mechanics say something is true, we're supposed to believe it is?

So when Jack Armstrong starts screaming and ranting and raving about no free throws being awarded for a foul on a pass, if enough people parrot that, he's correct?

[Too Late Crew]

You've got the solution. Dig it up yourself. Otherwise let's go with majority rules.

The majority being all the fans in the NBA I assume?

The "majority" being the loudest fans on a particular team board seems a little biased to me.

[ATLTimekeeper]

You've got the solution. Dig it up yourself. Otherwise let's go with majority rules.

The majority being all the fans in the NBA I assume?

The "majority" being the loudest fans on a particular team board seems a little biased to me.

That last part obviously wasn't serious. C'mon.

[Too Late Crew]

You've got the solution. Dig it up yourself. Otherwise let's go with majority rules.

The majority being all the fans in the NBA I assume?

The "majority" being the loudest fans on a particular team board seems a little biased to me.

That last part obviously wasn't serious. C'mon.

Its hard to tell sometimes with people spouting theories like Stern hates Canada or one of the Raptor players slept with a ref's wife.

Occam's Razor -"other things being equal, a simpler explanation is better than a more complex one"

I prefer this to wild conspiracy theories but that's just me.

[Superchunk]

You've got the solution. Dig it up yourself. Otherwise let's go with majority rules.

So if enough people with no basis of knowledge of officiating rules, interpretations or mechanics say something is true, we're supposed to believe it is?

So when Jack Armstrong starts screaming and ranting and raving about no free throws being awarded for a foul on a pass, if enough people parrot that, he's correct?

That was clearly a brain fart on Jack's part, I think you should let it go. Also, it was the other team, so Jack wasn't ranting that the Raptors were getting screwed.

[PRESTIGE]

DeMar does have a tendancy to whine on calls. Its gotten worse, and I feel like its because he feels like he's improved and should be getting calls now as opposed to being a young player. And he says all the stars doing it too.

Still, he's nowhere near as bad as Wade who scowls at the referee and starts talking to him while everybody else is getting back and the play is going on.

[Thelonious]

That was clearly a brain fart on Jack's part, I think you should let it go. Also, it was the other team, so Jack wasn't ranting that the Raptors were getting screwed.

Exactly. How convenient to use that continuation alley oop foul Armstrong was bitching about, as you main example, while omitting to point out he was taking Indiana's side...