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This reffing is unbelievable.

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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#286 » by Superchunk » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:26 pm

Oh, and regarding that play Jack was ranting about, why did the refs have to go to the tape? It seemed to me that they were confused on the same thing that Jack was confused on, which is why I questioned my own sanity for a minute.

Anyone?
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#287 » by lobosloboslobos » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:29 pm

BorisDK1 wrote:
lobosloboslobos wrote:All right, Boris, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think you actually understood what I was trying to get at at all unfortunately.

And if that's ad hominem (just looked it up) so be it. It's also true.

Well, argumentum ad hominem is logically fallacious and not all cogent; so it's not at all helpful in this conversation. It's just not something thoughtful people should utilize, and yes, I do consider you to be a normally thoughtful person (from what I've read). But you make personal attacks instead of dealing with things people are saying, and it's not becoming of thoughtful dialogue.

If I misunderstood you, I do apologize. Can you please clarify what I failed to address?


Sorry, Boris, no can do. You're not a child and if you haven't figured this stuff out by now you're certainly not going to learn it from me.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#288 » by BorisDK1 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:41 pm

lobosloboslobos wrote:Sorry, Boris, no can do. You're not a child and if you haven't figured this stuff out by now you're certainly not going to learn it from me.

You know, that is "horsepoop" (to quote you). You don't get to assail my character and call me all the synonyms of arrogant arrogant and unresponsive you can think of, when in fact I've gone through and answered line-by-line everything you've said. Not when you are 100% unwilling to deal with any substance of what I've said - and then, naturally, accuse me of misunderstanding you (condescendingly, of course :roll: ) and then refuse to clarify when I ask what there possibly is to mischaracterize.

I have been more than gracious with you despite the fact that the only thing you want to do is throw out ad hominem rhetoric. It appears to be the only thing you're willing to do, now, if not able. So, no, I'm not a child. But even if I were, I could see the consistent behaviour in this thread.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#289 » by lobosloboslobos » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:09 am

Too Late Crew wrote:Its hard to tell sometimes with people spouting theories like Stern hates Canada or one of the Raptor players slept with a ref's wife.

Occam's Razor -"other things being equal, a simpler explanation is better than a more complex one"

I prefer this to wild conspiracy theories but that's just me.


Hey for a guy who is claiming to be all about the facts how about sticking to them? You are blatantly twisting my words and you know it. I never claimed anything of the sort but you insisted there was no imaginable reason why the refs could be biased against the Raps and I provided a bunch of hypotheticals, including that one. But neither I nor anyone else has in any way suggested it as the actual reason so please don't pretend it has been.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#290 » by lobosloboslobos » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:24 am

BorisDK1 wrote:
lobosloboslobos wrote:Sorry, Boris, no can do. You're not a child and if you haven't figured this stuff out by now you're certainly not going to learn it from me.

You know, that is "horsepoop" (to quote you). You don't get to assail my character and call me all the synonyms of arrogant arrogant and unresponsive you can think of, when in fact I've gone through and answered line-by-line everything you've said. Not when you are 100% unwilling to deal with any substance of what I've said - and then, naturally, accuse me of misunderstanding you (condescendingly, of course :roll: ) and then refuse to clarify when I ask what there possibly is to mischaracterize.

I have been more than gracious with you despite the fact that the only thing you want to do is throw out ad hominem rhetoric. It appears to be the only thing you're willing to do, now, if not able. So, no, I'm not a child. But even if I were, I could see the consistent behaviour in this thread.


I'm condescending? Lol. This from the guy who explicitly and repeatedly says he knows more about this reffing question than a) anyone else on this board b) the announcers and journalists c) the Raps management. I don't know what to say to that Boris. You feel so very attacked but if you review my posts you'll find precious little in the way of vicious insults and instead a few light-hearted jibes (silly, horsepoop), and throughout an honest attempt (rooted in genuine respect initially, though not now) to get you to behave with a little less arch civility and a little more acceptance that other people may have legitimate differing opinions, and to understand that acknowledging them will make others respect you and your opinions more. THAT is what you failed to grasp and that is what other posters see as well. Sorry to break it to you but if you act like a know-it-all in public then eventually you'll be called one. My knowledge of the game is limited and I know it, and I'd like to be able to learn from all posters, including you, but if you act like nobody else has a clue except you it just makes it difficult to take your comments seriously, and eventually someone like me comes along and decides to knock you off your high horse. Now you may not think I've succeeded, but the point is what are you doing on a high horse anyway?
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#291 » by lobosloboslobos » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:34 am

Hey Boris I'm sorry it came to this. You're a smart guy and probably a nice guy and I regret having been drawn into this unpleasantness and getting on my own high horse about telling anyone else what to do. So I apologize. It's friday night and we probably both have better stuff to do. I'm going to go watch a movie with my daughter. And I'll try not to be an assh*le tomorrow.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#292 » by Superchunk » Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:33 am

hey guys, at least it's an honest attempt at arguing a point instead of lol clegono is gay for brags lol for the 10 000 time.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#293 » by AcesFull » Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:53 am

I agree that the refs have been terrible in most of our games this year and that we've been the victim of many bad calls/non-calls. Several of our losses have been by small margins, so even a couple of bad calls can affect the outcome of games. It's no stretch to say that we could have won a few more games had the reffing been neutral. A Raptor fouled during a scoring opportunity that results in a turnover and a basket by the opposing team is essentially a 4 point swing directly caused by a non-call by the refs. A couple of those in a tight game can have a major impact on the result. It's extremely frustrating as a fan to watch this happen again and again to us, so I would definitely support any movement to bring light to this injustice.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#294 » by Crazy-Canuck » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:13 am

There most definitely are referee biases in the NBA, there are also refs who have biases against specific teams/players. Now, that doesnt mean that 100% of calls go a certain way, it may mean certain teams may or may not get the benefit of the doubt or those 50/50 calls.

There is a reason why people make plays and win money just by knowing who is officating the game, no other refs impact the game like the ones in the NBA.

I myself, do make bets strictly based on who or who isnt officiating games. Ask any long time NBA gamblers and they will are aware of a few specific referee trends in the NBA (one is actually quite famous and has a ridiculous hit rate).
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#295 » by ilikecb4 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:09 am

Seriously guys,


I gamble a lot on basketball and I feel like refs are playing point spread too...


I feel like they call a lot of tick tack fouls at the end of games....



It feels really weird..Some games there is really fishy officiating
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#296 » by ilikecb4 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:10 am

Point spread is like impossible to win unless you consider who is officiating...



it's kinda sad that i have to look up who is officiating to bet on a basketball game
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#297 » by ilikecb4 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:23 am

Refs who call most fouls

from http://www.docsports.com/2010/handicapp ... s-471.html

irst, let’s take a look at the referees who tend to call the most fouls per game. For this study, I have looked at data from every game they officiated last year and the games they have officiated through March 2 of this season as well. Keep in mind; the fouls per game statistics are how many fouls were called total in a game, not just by that single official.

Scott Foster- Foster has called 44.3 fouls per game this season. He whistled 44.0 fouls per game last season. This year the points per game are at 201.3 and last year it was 201.7. The ‘over’ is 24-24 this season and was 48-30 last season in his games. In the last two years combined, the away team is 69-55 against the spread.


Leon Wood- Wood has whistled 44.3 fouls per game this season. He called 43.9 fouls per game last season. The points per game are at an astounding 206.9 this year, and they were 204.3 last year. The ‘over’ is 32-15 this year, and it was 35-32 last year. The away team is 62-48 ATS in the last two seasons combined.




Eric Lewis- Lewis has had 43.5 fouls per game this year and also had 43.1 last year. The points per game are at 199.2 this year, and they were 200.6 last season. The ‘under’ is 29-23 this year in his games, but the ‘over’ was 34-25 last year. The away team is 65-48 ATS in the last two seasons.
Joe Crawford- Crawford is at 42.3 fouls called per game this season. He called 44.2 fouls per game last year. The points per game are at 201.0 this year, and they were 203.1 last year. The ‘under’ is 24-19 in his games this season, but last year the ‘over’ was a very strong 45-25. The away team has a slight edge at 56-54 ATS.


Sean Corbin- Corbin has called 44.4 fouls per game this season. He whistled 41.9 per game last year. The points per game are at 203.6 this year, and they were 201.0 last season. The ‘over’ is 25-19 this year so far, and it was 38-30 last year as well. The away team is 59-52 ATS over the last couple seasons.


In general, what we find is probably what most people would expect. Referees who call more fouls tend to have more points per game scored, and the ‘over’ is the better side to be on. Leon Wood has been one of the strongest ‘over’ referees in the business last year and this one, while Eric Lewis has stayed fairly neutral despite calling a large amount of fouls. Obviously, this could definitely be dependent on the games they are calling. In some cases, it might actually hurt the scoring if too many fouls are called when the teams are looking to run and gun every single time down the court. As a general rule, the more free throws a game has the better the chances are of the ‘over’ being the winning side.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#298 » by theycallmeZZ » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:32 am

The Indy game was so weird when things seemed fair at the beginning of the game, all of a sudden (late 3rd and 4th quarters) a switch seemed to turn on and muggings from Psycho T seemed to be no calls while ticky tack fouls were sent our way.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#299 » by ilikecb4 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:10 am

theycallmeZZ wrote:The Indy game was so weird when things seemed fair at the beginning of the game, all of a sudden (late 3rd and 4th quarters) a switch seemed to turn on and muggings from Psycho T seemed to be no calls while ticky tack fouls were sent our way.



point spread, wanted game to be close
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#300 » by Superchunk » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:07 pm

I don't know anything about gambling - can you explain the point spread thing to me a bit? I find it hard to believe gambling is coming into play with the reffing, but the one thing I seem to see a lot of is strange calls near the end (not just raptors games).

Last night in the Rockets/Blazers game there was a clear path foul that would have put the Blazers up 4 (if ft hit) with the ball with 1:00 left. They didn't call it clear path even though I can't imagine any interpretation of the rule - A blazer had the ball at half with two blazers ahead of him and was fouled from behind with no defenders even close. They didn't even review it and to me, it's not a bang/bang play by any stretch, it was an obvious and simple call.

Confusing.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#301 » by fatal9 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:35 pm

ReggieSlater wrote:I've watched every game this year. I hate people who whine about officiating. I hate when our players whine about officiating. I know there is no league mandate that says TOR should be on the ass end of calls. All that being said, in the IND game and the end of the UTAH game I think, because of a number of random factors, we got the short end of the stick as far as calls go. I have my own theory why. The two guys that seemed to be getting hacked the most and never getting calls (DeRozan and Kleiza) whined on plays where they had no business whining on. Plays where they either clearly fouled another player (Kleiza) or whined when they clearly didn't get touched (DeRozan). I think after the a while the refs get fed up with whinny players, especially when they aren't established like KG or Wade. I think Refs are influenced by stars because everyone is. They hold a bit of weight because they are so important. When Kleiza and DeRozan are out their bitching about calls they have no business bitching about the refs will just ignore them. No conspiracy. But I do think we got the short end of too many 50/50 calls.

+1

lol @ this thread. People who think FTAs should even out game to game have no idea what they are talking about. It's partly perpetuated by the commentators who are incredibly biased, Devlin acts like Raptors are getting shafted every game, Jack is a little bit fairer but he still has a bad tendency of acting like Raptors deserve every call in the paint and calls phantom travels on the other team (while staying quiet when a Raptor player does the same move). You are not only watching the game with your own team bias but you're also listening to guys who reinforce your biases. There are people who b!tch about calls here even after replays CLEARLY show otherwise. I seriously feel bad for you if you can't enjoy the game without b!tching about officiating every game.

Raptors were the worst team in the league last year at committing fouls and putting opponents on the line (highest FT/FGA ratio in the league). This isn't something that's new, Raptors struggle to play defense without fouling. That's what happens when you get a team full of bad defenders and young players who the coach is trying to make commit on that end. The perimeter guys can't stay in front of their man, the bench bigs are undersized, the roster is very young and full of poor defensive players like Bargnani who put their teammates in bad positions...that's a recipe for a lot of foul calls. Learning to play defense physically without fouling is a SKILL that veterans in this league have. Aside from the 4th quarter of the Indy game (which by the way was a road game where refs were letting contact slide on both ends all game - but it got a bit excessive late), I've had no problems with the officiating.

Regardless, refs aren't the reason your team sucks and has sucked and will continue to suck.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#302 » by ATLTimekeeper » Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:33 pm

Look at your avy. No way a delinquent Raps fan gets to chime in this thread with a check-mate. The young team/bad defense theory is just that... a theory. Not real life. Jack and Matt are going overboard because they've had it.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#303 » by vini_vidi_vici » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:00 pm

The majority of this thread is narrative rather than substance like CentreCourts earlier with his graph.

So lets hijack this thread with substance. First as I noted earlier in the thread, we were 19th (19.8) in team opponent PFs. So I thought during the week, when I have time, maybe its because of shot selection, like the narrative were a perimeter team, we dont get shots at the rim, etc.. So I began to dig abit.

http://www.hoopdata.com/teamshotlocs2.aspx
http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/team-stat/opponent-fouls-category

Immediate I noticed the Raps took 29.6% (23rd) shots at the rim, and thought like you, myth busted. But I remembered the top 5 in Opponent PFs were (LAL/Chi/Min/BK/GS), the TWolves being the highest on shots at the rim at 36.7 (5th), The Lakers only 33.6 (12th), Chi 30.6 (19th). The other 2 behind us, BK 28.1 (26th), and GS 26.3 (28th). The soft spot is they are taking to many shots from the perimeter, but I dont think you can make that leap that because you shoot from the outside, you dont get calls, because it seems to go both extremes. Den takes 40%, Hou takes 39.1% (1st/2nd) at the rim, yet both are below us in terms of getting fouled, at 22nd (19.4) and 28th (19.0) respectively. Sorry for numbers, it gets confusing. None of this accounted for pace, fast break pts, etc.. which would help but im doing the best I can.

So heres where im forced to talk defense and fouling.

http://www.hoopdata.com/oteamshotlocs2.aspx

They give up 34.0% of the opponents shots at the rim, good for 9th. But look at some of the better defensive teams ahead of them, Mem 37.1% (2nd), 34.3% (7th). And conversely, the team that gives up the least amount of shots at the rim, GSW 26.7% is improving their D, but I dont think they are elite IMO. There is a good a correlation between giving up shots at the rim and fouling, but in most cases everyone is within 3 shots/per game. Looking at the raw(er) numbers here, I noticed the Raps give pretty much a hair under the league average ATT at the rim per game though (25.6/25.8 NBA average). I would do more but im lazy.

My issue isnt so much the officiating (I guess it is), its the rules. Too much is subjective and left up to interpretation, this goes for all sports. You could almost literally call the hand checking rule every time down the floor in the post, or perimeter. Holding in football, etc.. When it affects any team youre watching its unbearable, this goes for any team, think how Kings fans feel after reading Donaghys book, legitimate or not.
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#304 » by Phalosopher » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:54 pm

Officiating for today game was fine. I guess word must have been leaked to the right places. Keep it up if the pattern restarts. And vvv do not overthink it. As Marx brother groucho said it "who are u going to believe ..me or your own lying eyes :D
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Re: This reffing is unbelievable. 

Post#305 » by Chaos Engine » Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:16 pm

Boston's gamethread was furious about the reffing.

Let's face it,every fanbase thinks the refs are out to get them, even Mia/LA/Bos

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