Chisholm: It's time to trade Andrea Bargnani

[sunsetcrash]

They already have Serge Ibaka who is a tremendous rebounder and shot-blocker, and a much better shooter than Bargnani from the elbow. They also have no need for Calderon who doesn't know how to play in an uptempo game or defend. I can just imagine the Thunder breaking, only to have Calderon pull the ball back out. He is one PG in the league who can probably stop the Thunder fast break.

wtf serge ibaka aint a better shooter than bargs from the elbow

[JN]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ffset=1000

In the last 20 years, 1079 players have scored more than 16 points in a season (10 game minimum)

The bottom 5 PER
1. Jim Jackson 11.0 (1992-1993 Mavericks: Record 11-71)
2. Andrea Bargnani 12.1 (2012-2013 Raptors)
3. Chuck Person 12.2 (1992-1993 Timberwolves - Record 19-63)
4. Michael Dickerson 12.4 (2000-2001 Grizzlies - Record 23-59 )
5. Al Thornton 12.5 (2008-2009 Clippers - Record 19-63)

Congrats Andrea making such a prestigious list of players who were able to chuck on bad.... really bad teams. And more importantly, contribute nothing else to the team other than volume shooting.

I thought I may have been unfair lumping Bargs in with guys who scored over 25 ppg. Maybe he wouldn't be right near the bottom if we included guys who scored within a point of him.

So I decided to run a range of players who scored between 15.2 and 17.2 the last 20 years. As it would be a better comparison.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... offset=300

Out of 375 players, Bargs comes in at a nifty 374. Really shows how little Bargs contributes other than volume shoot.

[Too Late Crew]

They already have Serge Ibaka who is a tremendous rebounder and shot-blocker, and a much better shooter than Bargnani from the elbow. They also have no need for Calderon who doesn't know how to play in an uptempo game or defend. I can just imagine the Thunder breaking, only to have Calderon pull the ball back out. He is one PG in the league who can probably stop the Thunder fast break.

wtf serge ibaka aint a better shooter than bargs from the elbow

No? How many shots does Bargs take from the elbow and what's his %?

1/3 of bargs attempts this year have been 3s. That doesn't leave a lot of attempts for elbow jumpers.

[ReaLiez]

Every morning I wake up and check to see if we traded Bargs for some skittles and an arizona

I wont even mind if we take on a horrible contract just to get rid of him ...or at the VERY least move him to the bench / cut his minutes. He clearly gets fatigued and cant play any more

[McFurious1]

That tweet was depressing.

yes, yes it was

[HomieOmey]

@WolstatSun: From what I've heard, Raptors not yet taking looking to move Bargnani. But team believes (and it isn't BS) there would be market for him an hour ago

As I mentioned before, I would be very suprised if BC ever even offered Bargnani and DD (with whatever else) for Harden + fillers.

I'm totally cool with us keeping Bargnani if the offers just aren't anything great, but to not consider trading him and to not send out feelers is idiotic. You can only hold your breath for so long. We have two young front court players who can produce, and we also have to worry about Lowry's future with the team. It's time to move forward with confidence, and if you still can't do that with Bargs then you should probably move on.

[FluLikeSymptoms]

What else would you tell Wolstat?

[Basketball_Jones]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1993&year_max=2013&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=g&c1comp=gt&c1val=10&c2stat=pts_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=16&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=per&order_by_asc=&offset=1000

In the last 20 years, 1079 players have scored more than 16 points in a season (10 game minimum)

The bottom 5 PER
1. Jim Jackson 11.0 (1992-1993 Mavericks: Record 11-71)
2. Andrea Bargnani 12.1 (2012-2013 Raptors)
3. Chuck Person 12.2 (1992-1993 Timberwolves - Record 19-63)
4. Michael Dickerson 12.4 (2000-2001 Grizzlies - Record 23-59 )
5. Al Thornton 12.5 (2008-2009 Clippers - Record 19-63)

Congrats Andrea making such a prestigious list of players who were able to chuck on bad.... really bad teams. And do nothing else.

That list brings back memories. We'll see if Bargs keeps this up. I doubt he'll be bottom five by end of the season though. Somehow his PER always stays average despite not rebounding and shooting like crap.

[JN]

Finally a list to honour IL MAGO. Most three pointers made per minute by a seven footer.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... fg3_per_mp

A list that includes his most comparable player in the top five......WANG ZHI ZHI

Career PER
Bargs 14.5
Wang Zhi Zhi 14.2


Other non-comparable players on the list include Dirk Nowitzki.

[MrBojangelz71]

AB has a lot more in the tank, just a rough start to the season. Give him another 5 games, he will be our leading scorer, he will help us win games, and posters will once again hop over the fence.

Not saying I wouldn't trade him, but he is far from being the albatros many on here are making him out to be. In the end, if it doesnt equate to a strong first round pick, or a quality SF coming back, would rather keep him.

You mean like he's done every year..oh wait ....

He does have more in the tank but he's NEVER shown it for more than a few games at a time and there is no reason to think he ever will.

He will be our leading scorer..becuase if you force feed a guy 17 shots a game and 35mpg regardless of how he performs he will likley end up your team's leading scorer.

I fine with the Andrea and have come to accept him for exactly what he is.

Gone are the days of hoping for a 20/10 player capable of dominating the paint on both ends. Gone are the days of hoping for a rebel yell from him while tearing down the backboard.

He is what he is, a talented scorer, semi descent man defender, poor team defender and rebounder; that needs a fire lit under him on a regular bases.

There will come a time (if he remains with this team) where his value is clearly laid out. I believe that time will be in the playoffs, mid 4rth quarter were the opposing team has locked us down, and we hit a wall. That is when Andrea will step up, make big shots, give us some instant offense, and help us get a W.

Sounds corny, but my point is that he could have a solid role on a winning team. Boston would have loved his scoring potential during their 10 minute offensive droughts against Miami, when they couldn’t buy a bucket, Chicago same deal.

With players like DD, Lowry, Amir, Ed and Val, we are now capable of being a tough defensive team. Gone are the days of needing Andrea to be everything he isn't. We will have that area covered. What we will need is a player that can score regardless of what defensive set we are facing. Say what you will about Andrea, but he can score effortlessly when on, and can compensate for us in an area we will need help in.

We don’t need him to lead us, we have players now much better suited for that role. And I am fully aware of how he has sucked thus far into the season. I am not applauding his current production. But I have watched this game long enough to know that slow starts aren’t uncommon. I have seen enough from him to know exactly how potent his game can be when he is on. I get that it shouldn’t be this difficult to get consistency from him, but I will let a half season play out to see if this is the norm, or if he is just out of sync right now.

Like I said, he can easily step up a drop 30 plus over the next 3 games, and everyone is singing his praises.

[SDM]

Every morning I wake up and check to see if we traded Bargs for some skittles and an arizona

With rising prices in the beverage industry, I think this is even too much to part with to get Bargs. They can hold onto that can of Arizona and watch it appreciate to $2 in a couple years.

[Big Shot]

If dropping 30+ points doesn't come with efficiency, he is still not good enough, especially when he is considered as a big part of the team.

[ruckus]

It might be better for the team if we explore trade opportunities for Amir. Based on his salary and production, he isn't exactly a bargain but, he is value priced and may net us something better in a trade than what Bargs would at this moment.

[SDM]

It might be better for the team if we explore trade opportunities for Amir. Based on his salary and production, he isn't exactly a bargain but, he is value priced and may net us something better in a trade than what Bargs would at this moment.

I think trading Amir would be a mistake. His relatively hole-free game + versatility is made for the playoffs. I don't want to watch him be the first bench big on a contender unless it's here.

[ruckus]

It might be better for the team if we explore trade opportunities for Amir. Based on his salary and production, he isn't exactly a bargain but, he is value priced and may net us something better in a trade than what Bargs would at this moment.

I think trading Amir would be a mistake. His relatively hole-free game + versatility is made for the playoffs. I don't want to watch him be the first bench big on a contender unless it's here.

But, when is that going to happen? You can't trade crap and expect gold in return. You've got to give to get and, with have a glut at the PF/C position. The fact that he's solved his fouling issues and can give you a solid 10/10 when he gets minutes makes him our best trade asset. If Calderon wasn't expiring, he'd be more attractive than Calderon on the trade market.

[SDM]

It might be better for the team if we explore trade opportunities for Amir. Based on his salary and production, he isn't exactly a bargain but, he is value priced and may net us something better in a trade than what Bargs would at this moment.

I think trading Amir would be a mistake. His relatively hole-free game + versatility is made for the playoffs. I don't want to watch him be the first bench big on a contender unless it's here.

But, when is that going to happen? You can't trade crap and expect gold in return. You've got to give to get and, with have a glut at the PF/C position. The fact that he's solved his fouling issues and can give you a solid 10/10 when he gets minutes makes him our best trade asset. If Calderon wasn't expiring, he'd be more attractive than Calderon on the trade market.

I agree... he's a good trade asset, but he's also a pretty good player on a not-terrible contract who should probably be starting at the 4. There shouldn't be a rush to move him, he's not a problem if he stays, unlike Bargnani.

[Too Late Crew]

There will come a time (if he remains with this team) where his value is clearly laid out. I believe that time will be in the playoffs, mid 4rth quarter were the opposing team has locked us down, and we hit a wall. That is when Andrea will step up, make big shots, give us some instant offense, and help us get a W.

In order to score some theoretical key winning hoops in the 4th 1/4 of a playoff game you need to GET to the play-offs. As long as Bargs has been a major part of this team we have not MADE the playoffs.

I'm glad you are so sure that if that day ever comes that he will come through. The last time he was IN the playoffs (and playing a secondary role) he averaged 6 ppg less than 2 rpg and shot 33% so I'm sure your faith in his play off clutch performance ability has some other basis in fact.

[ruckus]

If Bargs was playing better, I'd be all for moving him but, moving him now would be selling low. Back in the day, everyone was clamouring for a Vince trade and, we ended up selling him low and we all know how that turned out.

I'm not in a rush to move Amir but, I wouldn't hesistate to make it known that if you can give back something pretty good in return, I'd make him available.

For example, Denver probably wouldn't do this and, Iggy probably has a trade restriction but, Amir and Jose for Iggy and Randolph sounds pretty fair on paper. Denver gets some financial relief and, we get the best player.

[James_Raptors]

For years I had hope for Bargs, watching him fight for starter's minutes, being shuffled around from centre, to power forward, to small forward, and so on. I wanted to believe he was more than what I was witnessing on the court. I am not the type of "fan" to fall in love with my players, obsess over them, defend them no matter what, etc. I'm also a firm believer in cheering for the name on the front of the jersey first and foremost. Players come and go but I will always remain loyal to the Toronto Raptors franchise (and this does not mean loyal to management or owners).

This year has been different for me. I am not getting caught up in the emotion of our record whatsoever when I state in absolute confidence that I now feel Bargs must come off the bench, if he is to remain with this team and if we're going to become competitive. I believe this is the first time I have ever stated this opinion on this forum (or at most the second time). I came to this conclusion after re-watching the game on November 10th against the 76'ers and on Wednesday November 7th against the Mavs. There were two botched plays that was the final straw for me. Obviously Bargs has made his fair share of bonehead plays over the years so it may seem strange that I would change my views over two games, but those were simply the straw that broke the camel's back.

If Barg's is to remain on Toronto he needs to become our 6th man type player. He can come into the game early and specifically to put some points on the board. If he's hot and/or not being a liability on defence, run with him until he falters. If not, it's back to the bench he goes. I understand that not playing him in the starting line-up creates issues with spacing and whatnot, but I don't think that's enough to keep him in the starting line-up. We let Amir and Ed fight for his minutes. I would vote for Amir now, while Lowry is out of the line-up. I like his chemistry with Jose quite a bit. Once Lowry comes back I would like to see Ed Davis start at PF and pair up Jose and Amir off the bench. This would probably mean Kleiza would be our starting SF, at least until we get some guys off the injury list.