Embry speaks to MLSE board, "weighing options" (Pg. 8)

[fatal9]

LOL, this dude is acting like players will forget to play basketball, concession stands and ticket offices will fail to make money, scouts will forget how to scout, trainers and coaches won't know what to do, and utter chaos will ensue if poor BC is gone. This isn't your typical corporation that needs to develop the newest products and cutting edge marketing strategies, the only thing that matters are the guys playing on the floor and after that, the coaches on the sideline. BC's job is to put a talented team on the floor and he has failed at doing that. There are other people who control the finances, marketing and other aspects of the business, everything gets segmented in an organization of this scale. The only thing that changes is the chain of command at a macro level but when the guy at the top is more incompetent at doing his job than the people below him, then he's the one who needs to go. It would be one thing if BC's vision, plan and "connections" was getting this team anywhere, but it's not and it never has.

Guys with the title of "President and General Manager" get fired all the time, Billy King was that for the Sixers a few years ago and got fired in December of the 2008 season, the team didn't suddenly fail to function. Guess who took over the "president and GM" role right after King was fired? ED STEFANKSI. In sports, it's not rocket science, these guys are expendable (good players however are not), especially when they have been a total failure at doing their job like BC has.

[ForeverTFC]

Your entire argument re: keeping Colangelo for now is premised on the following assumption holding: an ownership group that you yourself volunteer to be sophisticatedly run does not already have a succession plan in place. And you base this flimsy assumption on the almost laughable notion that because the extent of our atrociousness this season wasn't expected, our ownership was caught completely unawares. This, of course, is a ridiculous justification for an equally ridiculous premise.

Our GM is in the last year of his contract and there is new ownership, meaning that regardless of how we were projected to do, any even semi-competently run entity would have already planned for an eventuality they knew was coming (and, note anyway, that it was only according to our own GM and media hype that we were a playoff team; the vast majority of outside opinion had us finishing well out of the playoffs). Your entire argument makes no sense. You pretend like firing BC would suddenly launch our franchise into a state of disrepair (how much worse could it get, btw?). What if he suddenly died tomorrow? The notion that contingency plans aren't already in place....that is the notion that's laughable.

There is no reason BC couldn't be fired tomorrow. Would it take time to adjust? Sure, but so does any change in corporate structure at such a high level. My guess, you're a BC apologist who is trying to rationalize (read: delude himself into) keeping BC on board for longer.

I've said this on record here, and it is no secret that I don't have the disdain for Colangelo as many do around these parts. However, I have also said that it is time to part ways.

I just don't see the immediacy here to fire Colangelo. The board can make it mandatory that all trades will need an approval from here on out, until they decide on a course of action. I would rather this happen. I don't have any trust in Stefanski, and I fail to see how others do. What has he done so well to warrant handing the keys over?

Also, I don't find it hard to believe that the board does not have concrete plans in place to replace Colangelo, seeing how they are 6 months in. Anselmi was only named President a couple months back. What I don't want is a hastily made decision which can set us back even further.

MLSE did this with the firing of Aron Winter mid-season at Toronto FC. We all saw how that worked out. (Terrible!) I would rather stay the course, be bad enough to give up the pick this year to Oklahoma city, and start a true vision next year.

[dTox]

what a **** joke

its no wonder why the raptors are the laughing stock of the nba, and one of the most embarassing franchises in all of pro starts.

we have piss poor ownership, and the single worst gm in the entire league

What are you talking about?

Do you have any concept of how an organization is run, let alone an organization the size of MLSE?

Every single board member sitting in that room is infinitely more knowledgeable than you are on how to run an organization. Making a rash decision, like firing the GM in his last year before having a succession plan in place, is profoundly idiotic.

What the hell are you talking about man seriously? This team has 7 years of failure to look over, if they need another 3-4 months to assess the entire situation then it clearly shows that they haven't been paying any attention. I'm an executive in an IT firm (not at the top of the ladder, but somewhere in the middle) and I damn sure can tell you that my VP, Director or whomever know damn well as to what the current state of the team is based on the CURRENT results, unless its a new hire (which BC isn't) or a new system being implemented they wouldn't need another 3-4 months to assess something that's been broken for over 7 years, its definitely not a "rash decision" if you have 7 years of work to review in order to make a decision. If anything, its an indication that the board hasn't really taken ownership of the situation nor carries any substantial knowledge of this Raptors team or what's happening on the court, and if they need a debriefing from BC (which will obviously be biased from his perspective) to understand the situation then they're incompetent decision makers to begin with.

As a fan of the team (or I'm at least assuming your a bigger fan of the Raptors than of Colangalo) why would you want to hold on to a guy who has damaged this team with every passing month (literally, this team has gotten worse every month, from drafting Ross to **** free agent signing, to month by month accumulation of losses) for the remainder of the year knowing that he's incompetent? As an analogy, its like you're in the car with a drunk driver, you know he's potentially dangerous with every passing minute but because you don't want to take a cab or call another friend to pick you up on the way since you're "almost home", its still dangerous and can f*ck you up any minute letting the drunk guy drive behind the wheels, this is what its like having BC as the GM, in any minute, any instant he can make a move that will cripple the franchise. Get a hold of yourself man, wipe your tears if you're really sad to see him go, but it will be better for you as a fan of the team not just for the current state of the team but for the future as well.

[UnderdogRaptors]

MLSE is filled with a bunch of idiotic Hockey Heads, half of them don't even give a **** about the Raptors, they just want to see NHL hockey, Why don't they change the damn Name, there's 2 other teams besides the Maple Leafs you know! They wouldn't even care if the Raptors won a NBA title.

Rebirth of the Huskies please

[Scase]

Your entire argument re: keeping Colangelo for now is premised on the following assumption holding: an ownership group that you yourself volunteer to be sophisticatedly run does not already have a succession plan in place. And you base this flimsy assumption on the almost laughable notion that because the extent of our atrociousness this season wasn't expected, our ownership was caught completely unawares. This, of course, is a ridiculous justification for an equally ridiculous premise.

Our GM is in the last year of his contract and there is new ownership, meaning that regardless of how we were projected to do, any even semi-competently run entity would have already planned for an eventuality they knew was coming (and, note anyway, that it was only according to our own GM and media hype that we were a playoff team; the vast majority of outside opinion had us finishing well out of the playoffs). Your entire argument makes no sense. You pretend like firing BC would suddenly launch our franchise into a state of disrepair (how much worse could it get, btw?). What if he suddenly died tomorrow? The notion that contingency plans aren't already in place....that is the notion that's laughable.

There is no reason BC couldn't be fired tomorrow. Would it take time to adjust? Sure, but so does any change in corporate structure at such a high level. My guess, you're a BC apologist who is trying to rationalize (read: delude himself into) keeping BC on board for longer.

I've said this on record here, and it is no secret that I don't have the disdain for Colangelo as many do around these parts. However, I have also said that it is time to part ways.

I just don't see the immediacy here to fire Colangelo. The board can make it mandatory that all trades will need an approval from here on out, until they decide on a course of action. I would rather this happen. I don't have any trust in Stefanski, and I fail to see how others do. What has he done so well to warrant handing the keys over?

Also, I don't find it hard to believe that the board does not have concrete plans in place to replace Colangelo, seeing how they are 6 months in. Anselmi was only named President a couple months back. What I don't want is a hastily made decision which can set us back even further.

MLSE did this with the firing of Aron Winter mid-season at Toronto FC. We all saw how that worked out. (Terrible!) I would rather stay the course, be bad enough to give up the pick this year to Oklahoma city, and start a true vision next year.

So if he doesn't have the authority to fire the coach, and has to have all trades approved by the board why exactly do we keep him?

What else is he there to do? The sooner we can get another GM in to start working on his vision the better. I'd rather not have a lame duck GM.

[Harry Palmer]

Firstly, terminations are almost always 'sudden' to some degree. Which is why words like 'fired' and 'axed' are synonymous with 'terminated', as though that were not sufficiently momentous.

Secondly, what are the day to day functions of a president once you have ceased to want him to control or implement his business plan? What will happen if his chair is empty tomorrow? Will the lights not work? Will people not be paid? Will games be cancelled?

No...things will go on much as they were before. What will be different will be that there will be nobody there to make the call on ultimate decisions, hirings, firings, etc. But..if we have already reached the point where we don't want BC making those decisions anyway, what is the rationale that we need some kind of Operation Overlord contingency plan to cover the period between when we unofficialy stop wanting him to make decisions for us and when we make it official we want someone else to do so? Most things happen as a matter of course. For God's sake, the league ran a team for a while and the planets didn't stop moving in their orbits. The world wasn't all that different the day before BC was made President as it was the day after, and it won't be vastly different the day he leaves.

They can temporarily bump someone up, divide the duties, bring in an interim handler, or whatever. It's not a black and white situation, and generally things move pretty quickly in the corporate world once faith is lost in leadership. If Presidential candidates can fire campaign managers mid-campaign, and world leaders can fire generals mid-war, I think the Toronto Raptors can get by firing Bryan Colangelo mid-season...even if it doesn't fit into the right slot in some completely arbitrary continuum as defined by a fan.

Napoleon said leaders are salesmen of hope. Once the buyers stop buying, he's just another empty shirt. I have never blamed him for selling false hope...that's his job. I have blamed him for his decisions, not the expectations.
That's on the buyers. The Emperor has been walking around buck wild for over 5 years now, and that's the time problem with this scenario...not that it might come a couple months before the terms of his contract are fulfilled.

If someone wants to make an attempt to argue why we should still be buying BC's brand of hope, I'll listen, but I won't expect to hear anything more than more customers selling the product to each other. But if you retreat behind a wall of corporate double speak and the principles of protocol, please have the courtesy not to treat the rest of us as though the ground behind that artificial barrier puts you higher up on this than the rest of us.

it doesn't.

[BallinOnUHomie]

I like Casey, just want to see more fire from him and want him to hold his players accountable.

[Raps in 4]

Last time I'll say this...Coach is not the problem. Talent wins in this league. If we had Lebron James, Casey would be God...word to Mike Brown.

Coaching is very important in basketball.

[kush-]

BC will make sure we give OKC the 4th pick.

Grange didnt do so hot in his tv debut

[StartingBench]

The players loved Triano as well. Derozans argument is invalid.

I don't see why everyone is backing up Casey, he's done worse than last year with a better Roster. Does JJ and an often benched Bayless make that much of a difference? Even though last year they lost a bunch, they were still in it almost every game. What's the excuse this year? I'm starting to think that last year was a fluke. The result of a shortened season which played in our favor more than we realize.

[Rhettmatic]

^Why not just put Ed in as president of basketball operations in BC's place and keep BC on as president until the season is over?

Ed Davis? OK.

[Tdot24]

Last time I'll say this...Coach is not the problem. Talent wins in this league. If we had Lebron James, Casey would be God...word to Mike Brown.

Popovich

[Death Knight]

The players loved Triano as well. Derozans argument is invalid.

I don't see why everyone is backing up Casey, he's done worse than last year with a better Roster. Does JJ and an often benched Bayless make that much of a difference? Even though last year they lost a bunch, they were still in it almost every game. What's the excuse this year? I'm starting to think that last year was a fluke. The result of a shortened season which played in our favor more than we realize.

DD is just trying to protect his guaranteed minutes.

This team has 1 more week to do something before the end of the world. Dec 15 couldn't come any earlier as well, because I think that may be one of the major blocks holding deals down.

[hillbilly hare]

Firstly, terminations are almost always 'sudden' to some degree. Which is why words like 'fired' and 'axed' are synonymous with 'terminated', as though that were not sufficiently momentous.

Secondly, what are the day to day functions of a president once you have ceased to want him to control or implement his business plan? What will happen if his chair is empty tomorrow? Will the lights not work? Will people not be paid? Will games be cancelled?

No...things will go on much as they were before. What will be different will be that there will be nobody there to make the call on ultimate decisions, hirings, firings, etc. But..if we have already reached the point where we don't want BC making those decisions anyway, what is the rationale that we need some kind of Operation Overlord contingency plan to cover the period between when we unofficialy stop wanting him to make decisions for us and when we make it official we want someone else to do so? Most things happen as a matter of course. For God's sake, the league ran a team for a while and the planets didn't stop moving in their orbits. The world wasn't all that different the day before BC was made President as it was the day after, and it won't be vastly different the day he leaves.

They can temporarily bump someone up, divide the duties, bring in an interim handler, or whatever. It's not a black and white situation, and generally things move pretty quickly in the corporate world once faith is lost in leadership. If Presidential candidates can fire campaign managers mid-campaign, and world leaders can fire generals mid-war, I think the Toronto Raptors can get by firing Bryan Colangelo mid-season...even if it doesn't fit into the right slot in some completely arbitrary continuum as defined by a fan.

Napoleon said leaders are salesmen of hope. Once the buyers stop buying, he's just another empty shirt. I have never blamed him for selling false hope...that's his job. I have blamed him for his decisions, not the expectations.
That's on the buyers. The Emperor has been walking around buck wild for over 5 years now, and that's the time problem with this scenario...not that it might come a couple months before the terms of his contract are fulfilled.

If someone wants to make an attempt to argue why we should still be buying BC's brand of hope, I'll listen, but I won't expect to hear anything more than more customers selling the product to each other. But if you retreat behind a wall of corporate double speak and the principles of protocol, please have the courtesy not to treat the rest of us as though the ground behind that artificial barrier puts you higher up on this than the rest of us.

it doesn't.

Takin' it up a notch. Newbies take note.
Good job Harry.

[basketball420]

This deserves a thread .. Holly's note points out that the board meeting was Raptors specific. Pretty big deal if so.

It remains unknown what was discussed, who called it or whether the meeting was pre-scheduled. One team source described it as "a quick update" and that it involved team President and General Manager Bryan Colangelo giving the board a briefing on where the team currently stands.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/2012 ... o_raptors/

Thanks to Basketball420 for the scoop, not sure why thread was locked.

I appreciate it and like I said yesterday I am not trying to break news or anything like that. I used to always pass along trade rumours, and other "inside stuff" I would hear in passing but obviously a lot of it I can not ever repeat...that meeting yesterday I was 100 % positive about and it can be played off to an annual meeting or whatever but it wasn't a pleasant meet and greet.
Anyway I am not sure what happens from here and I don't advocate a firing or anything like that and I still stand by there was a possibility yesterday that meeting could have gone two ways.

[saham]

This deserves a thread .. Holly's note points out that the board meeting was Raptors specific. Pretty big deal if so.

It remains unknown what was discussed, who called it or whether the meeting was pre-scheduled. One team source described it as "a quick update" and that it involved team President and General Manager Bryan Colangelo giving the board a briefing on where the team currently stands.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/2012 ... o_raptors/

Thanks to Basketball420 for the scoop, not sure why thread was locked.

I appreciate it and like I said yesterday I am not trying to break news or anything like that. I used to always pass along trade rumours, and other "inside stuff" I would hear in passing but obviously a lot of it I can not ever repeat...that meeting yesterday I was 100 % positive about and it can be played off to an annual meeting or whatever but it wasn't a pleasant meet and greet.
Anyway I am not sure what happens from here and I don't advocate a firing or anything like that and I still stand by there was a possibility yesterday that meeting could have gone two ways.

I am with you on this one bro.. I posted in your thread upon confirmation with my source. If you go back and read it, my source told me that he thought BC isn't going to get fired but most likely he will be clipped to do anymore damage via trade. He will have to get approval from either Wayne or Ed or BOTH. From what I understand holly's notes about the meeting, it translates the same as my source told me.

[basketball420]

Thanks Saham. I think in the 10 years or so between Sportstalk and Realgm I have maybe thrown something out there that big once before. the VC trade... I also understand how annoying rumour and false hope threads. I'm just not that guy I have legit info and I think yesterday proved it. I put that out there before anyone on Twitter or here

[Rhettmatic]

I'm guessing MLSE is not going to fire BC at this time. I'd also guess it's due to a combination of cheapness, laziness and general apathy, and I'd guess that BC's hands will be tied as far as making big transactions. (At least, I hope that's the case -- we don't need a lameduck GM making short-sighted moves to save his job).

I'm guessing that's what led to this Cox piece:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/basketbal ... at-now-cox

The danger, of course, is that Colangelo will see other objectives as more compatible with his short-term future. He met with the MLSE board on Thursday and undoubtedly outlined his battle plan. In the past, MLSE has been reluctant, whether with hockey or basketball, to go down the path of tanking a season, but if there ever was a season to go down that path, this is probably it.

There’s no real point to firing Colangelo now, other than to stop him doing things that would help the team get significantly better now. He built this mess, he shouldn’t be permitted any quick fixes just to put a bowtie on a pig.

There’s just not much to be gained even if this team were to sharply correct its current tailspin and even go .500 the rest of the way. If that happened, you’d still be looking at Colangelo’s future and at trading Bargnani, with only Casey likely to benefit at this point from that scenario.

Grange also surfaced with an article yesterday advocating patience. So maybe their sources told them he'd be sticking around for a while.

Also, thanks to bball420 for the scoop yesterday. One of the best parts of a big forum like this is when users chip in with inside info.

[Alfred]

There’s no real point to firing Colangelo now, other than to stop him doing things that would help the team get significantly better now.

"There's no point to firing Colangelo now, other than this extremely good reason to fire him now."

[Rhettmatic]

There’s no real point to firing Colangelo now, other than to stop him doing things that would help the team get significantly better now.

"There's no point to firing Colangelo now, other than this extremely good reason to fire him now."

Haha. By the way, I have acid reflux from posting a Damien Cox article. I hope no one holds it against me. It wasn't the article itself I was intrigued by, but the fact of the article.