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LOL, Raps post game, Smith & Jones are drunk on BC kool-aid.

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Post#41 Re: LOL, Raps post game, Smith & Jones ar
Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:34 am by Tha Cynic

Double Helix wrote:Part of the reason BC is still around and part of the reason he still has fans is because many of the things he attempts do sound good in theory. He just hasn't seen many if those ideas pan out consistently.

A few losses in previous drafts and our team is drastically different. Winning the first in any but the Bargs draft and everything is different.

Without a doubt, the results haven't been there and ultimately that's all that matters but BC rarely frustrates in the moment of any one decision. It's only after it's turned sour that it often seems so naive in hindsight. Maybe that's because he's an expert salesman. Maybe that's because many relate to his line of thinking in theory and feel bad about his lack of luck but he's certainly likeable.

I know he should probably lose his job after this and several other disappointing seasons but deep down I'd love to see him somehow save his job with a Hail Mary play that workers short term and long. I like BC. I can often see his logic. I'm equally disappointed as any at how early things have worked out. It's really as simple ad that for me.


I completely disagree. Most of what he does actually makes no sense. It makes sense if you believe in his comparisons where he absolutely overrates the players he signs or trades for, and compares them to star players or key players on other teams. Bargnani as Dirk? Kapono as their Stojakovic, Landry Fields as their freakin' Shane Battier? The list goes on and on. To make things worse, he doesn't understand the most important aspects of a successful basketball team. If he did, he wouldn't sign the type of players he does. If fact, his biggest problem is his ability to understand how to build a basketball team. He may be a business genius or whatever, but as a GM he is terrible.
Kobe Bryant on farewell season: “If you booed me for 18, 19 years, boo me for the 20th. That’s the game, man."
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Post#42 Re: LOL, Raps post game, Smith & Jones ar
Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:30 am by Harry Palmer

Double Helix wrote:Part of the reason BC is still around and part of the reason he still has fans is because many of the things he attempts do sound good in theory.


No, no they really don't. not if you're thinking critically while you listen.

And this isn't just hindsight, as you know.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

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Post#43 Re: LOL, Raps post game, Smith & Jones ar
Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:34 am by UcanUwill

zippy wrote:Bryan Colangelo is by no shot an amazing General Manager, but he has some experience which in my opinion is better than no experience. What the majority of you are saying is you're willing to gamble and take a shot hiring a no name guy as our GM hoping it works out like Masai???


Cant believe this guy... You cant get worse, when you have absolute worst already. What experience BC has exactly? To sign borderline NBA talents for outrageous prices?
This is pathetic, how in a world one person can do so poorly and still keep his job and have supporters? I actually believe thtn Colangelo's talent evaluation is worse than average RealGM poster. First of all, is his Bargnani delusion, Sir Richard Dawkins should write a book about that... No matter how poorly he builds this team, how bad it looks on paper to begin with, he thinks this team is a play-off contender. What a joke. When you look back at Toronto squads, you will be surprised how many relatively young players aren't even in the NBA anymore.
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Post#44 Re: LOL, Raps post game, Smith & Jones ar
Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:32 am by J-Roc

Volcano wrote:
zippy wrote:Please name someone with experience that you can guarantee will turn this team into a contender?

I'm glad its not up to you either, you seem emotionally unstable.


It's not supposed to be his job to look for candidates now is it? You're telling a customer at a supermarket that he's not equipped to source supplies and inventories because he's complaining about rotten fruit.

Double Helix wrote:Part of the reason BC is still around and part of the reason he still has fans is because many of the things he attempts do sound good in theory. He just hasn't seen many if those ideas pan out consistently.


WRONG.

Most of his ideas were terrible in theory. The reason you agree with him is because your sense of logic is skewed like his. That's why both of you had to concede to the downfall of Bargs even though everyone else saw it coming a mile away.


The GM should not be allowed to have a SINGLE decision that's horrible in theory. This is his job. If he does something that's obviously mindnumbingly stupid to everyone involved in the game, then he doesn't deserve to keep his job.


Thank you. Was about to post the same thing. DH, seriously, guys like you shouldn't be confusing kids here by posting that BC's moves make sense.
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Post#45 Re: LOL, Raps post game, Smith & Jones ar
Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:48 am by KiySi

Unfortunately that's what journalism is these days. You have to be a puppet, and be politically correct on your route to kissing everyone's ass even if you disagree with it.

If you want to be a journalist who speaks his mind, and spews truth - you better just be doing it for a hobby because odds are you won't get a job that way.
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Post#46 Re: LOL, Raps post game, Smith & Jones ar
Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:55 am by BorisDK1

Volcano wrote:WRONG.

Most of his ideas were terrible in theory. The reason you agree with him is because your sense of logic is skewed like his. That's why both of you had to concede to the downfall of Bargs even though everyone else saw it coming a mile away.

That's a pretty harsh comment towards a poster who's got a pretty good understanding of the game, and I'm going to challenge you on that.

This team built around Bargnani was never bad in theory; it was bad in practice simply because Bargnani has massively underperformed. If he were effective at the things he was supposed to be effective at, we would not be having this conversation. He's an agile big man with great balance and good shooting form and ballhandling skills who, for reason(s) known only to God Himself, cannot shoot accurately from the floor, rebound offensively against much smaller players, outrun anybody in transition, get to the line or - stunningly - pass the damned ball to save his life.

There is no way that in a theoretical world that if you took the structure of a player like Bargnani that you would end up with a model of a player who can't shoot reliably or pass the ball accurately. To say that result is counter-intuitive is a massive understatement.

Has it been obvious from his third year that he wasn't going to pan out the way Colangelo had hoped? Yes, quite frankly, it has. Has the team invested more hope for a longer time in him than they should have? Yes. But that's not a theoretical failure; it's a pragmatic one. Had Bargnani performed at the level he should have, being an effective perimeter shooter and passer who forces opposing bigs to expend a lot of energy to sprint back in transition instead of rebounding offensively or forcing them to get caught on mismatches with smaller players on the perimeter, then Bargnani looks just dandy. It's just that he hasn't performed up to the level he could have. And, frankly, for that to have worked well he needed some help on the wing, and the type of wing player Bargnani needed as a compliment is so rare that you really can't base your hopes on landing one - thinking of a Shawn Marion in his prime, obviously.
The GM should not be allowed to have a SINGLE decision that's horrible in theory. This is his job. If he does something that's obviously mindnumbingly stupid to everyone involved in the game, then he doesn't deserve to keep his job.

I'm curious to what exactly is the theoretical failure, here.

Miami is now running a 5-out/0-in offense, which usually you see coaches at underpopulated high schools with no football programs use. Is that a failure? Obviously not; nobody can guard it.

Could the Raptors have made that work? If Bargnani were as good as he could have been, absolutely. Had other pieces worked out, sure. But those aren't theoretical problems, really; they're just pragmatic concerns.

Colangelo should still be fired, because obviously he cannot circumnavigate the mundane matters of NBA personnel management effectively. But there was nothing wrong with the theory of what he's done; he just hasn't assembled the right players to make it happen.
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Post#47 Re: LOL, Raps post game, Smith & Jones ar
Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:09 am by J-Roc

The theory of what BC did was draft a 7ft tall SF and then try to turn him into a C because we already had a PF. Oh and nevermind defence because the game was evolving.

Even in theory, this experiment was never going to work.
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Post#48 Re: LOL, Raps post game, Smith & Jones ar
Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:11 am by zippy

UcanUwill wrote:Cant believe this guy... You cant get worse, when you have absolute worst already. What experience BC has exactly? To sign borderline NBA talents for outrageous prices?



Why are you all reacting like I'm saying BC is the best thing to happen to this team? LOL Get off this Fire BC high and think about things logically. Babcock was still worse than BC pulling off the worst trade probably in NBA history.

UcanUwill wrote:This is pathetic, how in a world one person can do so poorly and still keep his job and have supporters? I actually believe thtn Colangelo's talent evaluation is worse than average RealGM poster. First of all, is his Bargnani delusion, Sir Richard Dawkins should write a book about that...


BC Has made ALOT of mistakes, but I don't know of ANY GM's that haven't, he's corrected some of his mistakes (ala Turk for Barbosa, Kapono for a bag of chips)... However think about how long Isaiah Thomas was in NYC screwing that franchise over and over again. Trust me things COULD be worse.

As for Bargs, best guy out of that draft nobody knew or expected at the time that Gay would explode into what he is today. Roy was finished in his first year, and Aldridge is a rollorcoaster. The draft is a gamble regardless of how good your scouting is.. College ball, Euroleague and NBA ball are 3 very different games.

UcanUwill wrote:No matter how poorly he builds this team, how bad it looks on paper to begin with, he thinks this team is a play-off contender. What a joke. When you look back at Toronto squads, you will be surprised how many relatively young players aren't even in the NBA anymore


I'm not defending BC by any means, however I'm logically thinking about things rather than emotionally making oppinions!
Every GM should be held responsible for not showing any form of success in his entire tenure. But again, until something like DR. J or Phil Jackson become readily availalbe to take over as our GM I wouldn't be looking to make any changes just as of yet.
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Post#49 Re: LOL, Raps post game, Smith & Jones ar
Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:36 am by UcanUwill

BC corrections are just that. I respect him for that, but he undid nothing. He crapped all over the place, than cleaned some of his mess to make a room for another crap. He learn nothing and is getting worse. BC is up there among worst of all time. Fact he isn't worst is no argument. You cant point out worst GMs ever and tell me - see, it can get worse... Its stupid man :lol: its like woman taking back a violent, criminal, cheating husband, because hey, it could be worse. I know its a terrible comparison, but here you go...
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Post#50 Re: LOL, Raps post game, Smith & Jones ar
Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:42 am by BorisDK1

J-Roc wrote:The theory of what BC did was draft a 7ft tall SF and then try to turn him into a C because we already had a PF. Oh and nevermind defence because the game was evolving.

Even in theory, this experiment was never going to work.

The problem still wasn't the theory; it was the pragmatic failure of Bargnani to be good at what he was supposed to be good at. Whether you want to call him a SF or a PF or a C, his weaknesses only shift slightly. He can't shoot accurately, he can't pass, he's turnover-prone and he doesn't get to the line enough. That's the heart of the issue (offensively, anyway). If he were keeping an ORat of 113 or so nobody would really complain a whole lot - but at 103, he's a huge problem.

The game has evolved, whether you want it to or not. The way the game is shifting to go to far more spread sets to force defenses to do what they don't do really well - namely, guarding the dribble-drive in open space and force guards to defend guards as screeners (which they suck at).

Miami is having NO problem playing without a center. Their defense will eventually come back around, I don't doubt that. Well, how could that be?!? How dare they?!? What theoretical model are they following?!? The one that best suits their talent, that's what. And they're enjoying oodles of success while doing so.

Most people ditched the "there's only one way to play the game" idea years ago. John Calipari ditched his traditional motion/passing game offense to throw out an offense designed by some junior college coach nobody had ever heard of after having had a cup of coffee with him, and now he can recruit whatever crème de la crème guard he wants because those guards are BEGGING to play for him and have the freedom of his Dribble Drive Motion. Who ever tells bigs to stay the hell out of the way and NEVER get caught screening? Calipari did, and with only slight thanks to some shady recruiting practices has a national championship to his credit - theory be damned. He changed the theory.
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Post#51 Re: LOL, Raps post game, Smith & Jones ar
Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:11 am by 3thomas

Rogers owns the Fan who also happen to own the Raptors. That's what you get with more corporate take overs. Anyways never liked them too much, never listened to them too much and I'd expect nothing less from them. That said, I'd like to comment on something they said which to me is very deceptive, regressive and flat out untrue. The notion that BC should retain his job simply because there is no one better out there.

With 30 front offices and revenues of +$4billion/year, honestly its hard for me to believe the NBA can not offer just one single good GM candidate for our lowly basketball franchise. Inversely, I find that deeming every available GM candidate out there as inferior to BC is at worse deceptive and at best uneducated. Have they done a thorough research on all available candidates out there including potential GMs that serve in other front offices? or is this based on what they hear and see when they travel with the team; i.e. "expert opinion?

This is not to say that his hiring decision was wrong, not at all. At the time it seemed to be the most logical choice. But in his +6 year tenure things have changed. We are now a team devout of any All-Star talent or potential thereof. For the good part of 4-5 years we have dwelled at the bottom tier of the league. Moreover, this year we hold the second worse record amongst all teams and potentially have no lottery pick to supplement a team that requires many pieces before it can complete night in and night out.

Two years ago we were at this very junction when BC's contract expired and the same argument was clearly echoed then. Who else if not BC? At that time Colangelo's line was; I've added young talent preserved cap space and set up the team for future success/rebuild -recall, during the same period, Ontario Teacher's Pension representative held back on BC's extension and (in hindsight) he received (unswervingly) quite a bit of lashing for it.

Since then we have accelerated the rebuild by adding Kyle Lowry (who is clearly not the best fit), lavished Landry Fields with contract he can only dream of and locked in an inconsistent Demar Derozen for four more years (at a premium). We are also in the process of trading of the "core pieces" no longer deemed part of the future with no apparent taker (mostly due to their lob sided contracts).

Meanwhile the team has had a horrible start to the season with obvious chemistry issues, lack of talent and roster gaps. I would like to ask Mr. Smith, Jones and Grange the main advocates of the status-quot; Are we better than two years ago or are we worse? I for one in all honesty can say that we are clearly worse. Form current results to locker room issues to near term solutions we have regressed.

Adding insult to injury is the uncertainty about the identity of this team, are we still rebuilding or are we going all in for it? Nothing is clear at this point, not until Jose and Andrea are traded that we will know what we'll get back and how it can be integrated into the roster and the long term plans of the team.

The point I'm trying to make is that the "if not BC, then who else?" argument used in the past, has not helped the team improve, has not even maintained the level of play of mediocre team. To the contrary it has caused the team to regress and its future to be murkier. Could we be in a worse spot? Arguably yes, the only thing left for this team is the little cap space it has and if I were to bet my money I'd rather have someone else use other than BC.

OKC has done it with an unknown GM via drafting right and trading right. Indiana has done it with an experienced GM patiently drafting the BPA and smart trades that netted the team young talent and picks. Atlanta with a dysfunctional ownership group has built (via the draft) a perennial play off team in spite of trading their All-Star player Joe Johnson.

To say there is no one out there better than BC is flat-out untrue.
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Post#52 Re: LOL, Raps post game, Smith & Jones ar
Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:36 am by Basketball_Jones

I kind of agree with Boris here. If Bargs actually was this hot shot Dirk type of scorer I think many of us, myself included, wouldn't have minded trying to base a team around that talent and ignore his huge weaknesses. But the fact is, he's not a top flight scorer and that is what has driven me nuts about him since his second season. The only time he's shown good efficiency was when he was second fiddle to Bosh for an entire year, and even then it wasn't spectacular or enough to get this team into the playoffs. Especially considering Colangelo's inability to find long term wing players to make it work between the two.
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Post#53 Re: LOL, Raps post game, Smith & Jones ar
Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:48 am by J-Roc

Basketball_Jones wrote:I kind of agree with Boris here. If Bargs actually was this hot shot Dirk type of scorer I think many of us, myself included, wouldn't have minded trying to base a team around that talent and ignore his huge weaknesses. But the fact is, he's not a top flight scorer and that is what has driven me nuts about him since his second season. The only time he's shown good efficiency was when he was second fiddle to Bosh for an entire year, and even then it wasn't spectacular or enough to get this team into the playoffs. Especially considering Colangelo's inability to find long term wing players to make it work between the two.


Even if he was Dirk, you wouldn't make him a Centre and play small ball. And you'd pair him up with a banger under the rim to take defensive pressure off him. What you wouldn't do is take Dirk (yes, even the MVP version of Dirk) and develop him be the bruising centre beside your all-star PF.
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Post#54 Re: LOL, Raps post game, Smith & Jones ar
Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:01 pm by ATLTimekeeper

J-Roc wrote:Even if he was Dirk, you wouldn't make him a Centre and play small ball. And you'd pair him up with a banger under the rim to take defensive pressure off him. What you wouldn't do is take Dirk (yes, even the MVP version of Dirk) and develop him be the bruising centre beside your all-star PF.


See Dirk's early years in Dallas. They would have won a crapload more games with Dirk-Bosh instead of Bargs-Bosh, no?
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Post#55 Re: LOL, Raps post game, Smith & Jones ar
Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:06 pm by LLJ

I think even if Bargnani had lived up to his potential as a sweet shooting big man who could run the floor and grab at least 7-8 rebounds a game, it would have been tough to make it work at C because of his total inability to anchor a defence, which isn't so much skill related as much as an inherent deficiency with him. A lot of people in the Raptors organization thought he would end up being like a 2000s version of Bob McAdoo, but even Bob McAdoo--a vastly superior player overall--had problems anchoring a defence. Most of the teams he played on in his prime were not very good. He was awesome off the bench for the Lakers playing behind Kareem, though, which is really the best role Bargnani can play.
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Post#56 Re: LOL, Raps post game, Smith & Jones ar
Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:18 pm by ATLTimekeeper

LLJ wrote:I think even if Bargnani had lived up to his potential as a sweet shooting big man who could run the floor and grab at least 7-8 rebounds a game, it would have been tough to make it work at C because of his total inability to anchor a defence, which isn't so much skill related as much as an inherent deficiency with him. A lot of people in the Raptors organization thought he would end up being like a 2000s version of Bob McAdoo, but even Bob McAdoo--a vastly superior player overall--had problems anchoring a defence. Most of the teams he played on in his prime were not very good. He was awesome off the bench for the Lakers playing behind Kareem, though, which is really the best role Bargnani can play.


Well, you're looking at the guy who built a 60 win team with Amare at C. He was obviously in the mindset that he could replicate those results.
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Post#57 Re: LOL, Raps post game, Smith & Jones ar
Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:24 pm by Basketball_Jones

J-Roc wrote:Even if he was Dirk, you wouldn't make him a Centre and play small ball. And you'd pair him up with a banger under the rim to take defensive pressure off him. What you wouldn't do is take Dirk (yes, even the MVP version of Dirk) and develop him be the bruising centre beside your all-star PF.


For a recipe for a championship, no. It'd be kind of like Jamison/Dirk times in Dallas. But it would be a very competitive team, especially if you can fill in the wings with actual good players instead of dog crap like Colangelo did.
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Post#58 Re: LOL, Raps post game, Smith & Jones ar
Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:31 pm by BorisDK1

J-Roc wrote:Even if he was Dirk, you wouldn't make him a Centre and play small ball. And you'd pair him up with a banger under the rim to take defensive pressure off him. What you wouldn't do is take Dirk (yes, even the MVP version of Dirk) and develop him be the bruising centre beside your all-star PF.

Why not? The Mavs played small a lot of the time with Dirk as the center; they won a championship. The Heat just won a championship and rejected the idea that they even need a center; they won a championship, and probably aren't done yet.

It's not a question of what you do; it's a question of how well you do what you do.
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Post#59 Re: LOL, Raps post game, Smith & Jones ar
Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:31 pm by mprapss

I stopped listening to them last year when they kept arguing that it was more imporant to win at the end of the year to build a winning culture than tank for lottery position. they kept using example of teams like indiana who turned it around and built culture of winning and we needed to do the same.

We certainly did not have the talent and with JV coming this year and us no where near the playoffs it seemed a no brainer to shoot for top 3 versus win and risk rising to 8th which we did.

We saw where that winning culture with players on 10 day contracts got us and lord know any of the top 3 would certainly help our cause.

Either way they are bias which is not so bad other than they are always wrong. This franchise is a joke in part for there record/moves etc but mostly because how no matter how bad they screw up they keep spinning hte great job that is being done.
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Post#60 Re: LOL, Raps post game, Smith & Jones ar
Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:48 pm by Jer15Jer

This entire board needs to stop bitching about BC.
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