LOL, Raps post game, Smith & Jones are drunk on BC kool-aid.

[Scase]

I'm curious to what exactly is the theoretical failure, here.

Miami is now running a 5-out/0-in offense, which usually you see coaches at underpopulated high schools with no football programs use. Is that a failure? Obviously not; nobody can guard it.

Could the Raptors have made that work? If Bargnani were as good as he could have been, absolutely. Had other pieces worked out, sure. But those aren't theoretical problems, really; they're just pragmatic concerns.

Colangelo should still be fired, because obviously he cannot circumnavigate the mundane matters of NBA personnel management effectively. But there was nothing wrong with the theory of what he's done; he just hasn't assembled the right players to make it happen.

Yes they could have made it work.....if they had three hall of famers, one of which being potentially the 2nd GOAT. That is why it was NEVER a theoretical failure.

If you were banking on Bargs (as a GM) to theoretically hit his absolute ceiling as well as have a really really good team make up for that to work, so basically a perfect drafting and trading record then yes that's a theoretical failure. hoping everything goes absolutely perfectly is just waiting for failure to slap you in the face.

I know you aren't arguing that BC is good by any means but what WASN'T a theoretical failure about the Kapono signing.

[J-Roc]

Even if he was Dirk, you wouldn't make him a Centre and play small ball. And you'd pair him up with a banger under the rim to take defensive pressure off him. What you wouldn't do is take Dirk (yes, even the MVP version of Dirk) and develop him be the bruising centre beside your all-star PF.

Why not? The Mavs played small a lot of the time with Dirk as the center; they won a championship. The Heat just won a championship and rejected the idea that they even need a center; they won a championship, and probably aren't done yet.

It's not a question of what you do; it's a question of how well you do what you do.

1st, stop bringing up the Heat. They have LeBron James.

2nd, yes, at certain points during a game, with matchups, you can have any combination of players on the floor. But the Mavs won a championship with Tyson Chandler as their C.

[kirkwood]

The only reason Colangelo is hated by fans right now is because he made one mistake this year, he clearly stated this team was on the verge of the playoffs. Had he just shut his trap and continued on preaching what he was preaching a year ago, which was rebuilding, then most fans would accept what is happening. The fact he actually believed this team could have any success at all this year is pretty bad but then again its also his job to sell tickets.

Most of us here were quite happy with the rebuild, all he had to say was we were still rebuilding and there was no expectations other than to develop young players.

The good part is we are in the running for wiggins

[Primetime23]

The only reason Colangelo is hated by fans right now is because he made one mistake this year, he clearly stated this team was on the verge of the playoffs. Had he just shut his trap and continued on preaching what he was preaching a year ago, which was rebuilding, then most fans would accept what is happening. The fact he actually believed this team could have any success at all this year is pretty bad but then again its also his job to sell tickets.

Most of us here were quite happy with the rebuild, all he had to say was we were still rebuilding and there was no expectations other than to develop young players.

The good part is we are in the running for wiggins

[dTox]

The only reason Colangelo is hated by fans right now is because he made one mistake this year, he clearly stated this team was on the verge of the playoffs. Had he just shut his trap and continued on preaching what he was preaching a year ago, which was rebuilding, then most fans would accept what is happening. The fact he actually believed this team could have any success at all this year is pretty bad but then again its also his job to sell tickets.

Most of us here were quite happy with the rebuild, all he had to say was we were still rebuilding and there was no expectations other than to develop young players.

The good part is we are in the running for wiggins

have you been living under a rock the past 7 years?

[BorisDK1]

1st, stop bringing up the Heat. They have LeBron James.

So did Cleveland. Your point being?

The Heat also have Shane Battier and Chris Bosh pulling opposing bigs away from the basket - effectively, mind you, not like Bargnani. And the result is that it's very, very difficult to guard LeBron James and Dwyane Wade in space because you can offer very little help.

2nd, yes, at certain points during a game, with matchups, you can have any combination of players on the floor. But the Mavs won a championship with Tyson Chandler as their C.

Sometimes. But they also - especially in the Western Conference Finals - went without Chandler for extended periods and were very effective like that. They also lost a lot of playoff rounds trying to hold to a traditional lineup with stereotypical players at each position.

Teams who just do what they do, and do it well, will be far better positioned to win more consistently than those who merely search players to match up with some neoplatonic form of what a position should look like.

Case in point: NCAA tournament 2011. Georgetown was heavily favoured in the first round over VCU because of their size and supposed ability to crush the smaller opponents on the glass. VCU just continued to run their 4-out/1-in high motion and turned rebounding into a footrace - and CRUSHED Georgetown on the glass (even defensively, after they establishsed themselves as the aggressors). Just ran them right out of the gym to an easy win.

Teams should just deploy their talent to the best of their ability, whatever it is. If the talent is any good and just succeed at doing what they're supposed to be good at, they'll enjoy success.

[reptar15]

The only reason Colangelo is hated by fans right now is because he made one mistake this year, he clearly stated this team was on the verge of the playoffs. Had he just shut his trap and continued on preaching what he was preaching a year ago, which was rebuilding, then most fans would accept what is happening. The fact he actually believed this team could have any success at all this year is pretty bad but then again its also his job to sell tickets.

Most of us here were quite happy with the rebuild, all he had to say was we were still rebuilding and there was no expectations other than to develop young players.

The good part is we are in the running for wiggins

please only speak for yourself

[Waylon Mercy]

^^Wow awesomely awesome. I love that Val has jungle fever. LOL

Ya Jonas is a great dude fun guy to hang out with I remember the only basketball question he
answered was that Brook Lopez was the toughest guy hes played against.

[J-Roc]

The only reason Colangelo is hated by fans right now is because he made one mistake this year, he clearly stated this team was on the verge of the playoffs. Had he just shut his trap and continued on preaching what he was preaching a year ago, which was rebuilding, then most fans would accept what is happening. The fact he actually believed this team could have any success at all this year is pretty bad but then again its also his job to sell tickets.

Most of us here were quite happy with the rebuild, all he had to say was we were still rebuilding and there was no expectations other than to develop young players.

The good part is we are in the running for wiggins

He also potentially traded our pick, so he couldn't have done that and still preached losing...err, rebuilding.

[Neutral 123]

Bryan Colangelo is by no shot an amazing General Manager, but he has some experience which in my opinion is better than no experience. What the majority of you are saying is you're willing to gamble and take a shot hiring a no name guy as our GM hoping it works out like Masai???

If Dr. J was still interested to be our GM I'd take him on, hell I'd even have Phil Jackson as our GM lol but I'm talking tangible available prospects that will absolutely guarantee success for this team! You can't just be trigger happy firing the man and replacing him with garbage.

Just about anyone with the right direction would be a better choice. BC is constantly trying to quick fix the team and now so far in his tenure, must feel even more obligated to sell that 'the team is almost there' nonsense. A new GM would get a fresh start and should build through the draft.

[Basketball_Jones]

Experience is great. But at some point, results have to mean something.

[BallinOnUHomie]

Only thing I hold against B.C out of everything hes done during his tenure as GM is his inability to move on from Bargnani. When you make a bad pick, its done with, no point looking back, when you cannot move on from a bad pick, its a shame that you left your naivety and pride stand in the way of what is best for the team. Bargnani should have been traded a long time ago and we could have gotten something signficant in return when his value was fairly high. B.C has to go for this reason more then any other in my opinion. My assessment of B.C appears to be something between Smith & Jones and all the B.C haters out there. Both parties seem to view B.C at two extremes when his true performance as Gm of the Raps is probably somewhere closer to the middle of the two, more so on the worst side.

[Marmoset]

I was thinking the exact same thing as thread title when I listened to them. I normally really enjoy listening to those guys but the level of backlash when confronted with fans that have a different opinion was pretty surprising to hear.

As I keep telling anyone I talk Raptors with, to me it's simply about math. If I had the level of success in my job that Bryan Colangelo has in his (at least in Toronto), I would not have been employed for seven years. At some point, whether or not you like him you've got to say he's had his chance, and it's time for someone else to have a shot. That point in time has arrived.

It's not about bad or good trades, bad or good drafting, which coaches were hired or fired - it's seven years with just two playoff berths and zero playoff series wins, and a team that is as bad now is it has ever been since he got here.

I think Bryan Colangelo is an average NBA GM, and seven years is probably at least an average NBA GM's tenure. It's time for someone new.

[Sojourn]

smith & jones are tantamount to colin powell lying about wmd to the UN. dont listen to them.

[Suga2Panda]

Imagine BC in a adult film with Andrea, and mini sized Smith and Jones wrapping themselves on each of his balls. That sums up their existence.

[Dr Positivity]

Please name someone with experience that you can guarantee will turn this team into a contender?

I'm glad its not up to you either, you seem emotionally unstable.

It's not supposed to be his job to look for candidates now is it? You're telling a customer at a supermarket that he's not equipped to source supplies and inventories because he's complaining about rotten fruit.

Part of the reason BC is still around and part of the reason he still has fans is because many of the things he attempts do sound good in theory. He just hasn't seen many if those ideas pan out consistently.

WRONG.

Most of his ideas were terrible in theory. The reason you agree with him is because your sense of logic is skewed like his. That's why both of you had to concede to the downfall of Bargs even though everyone else saw it coming a mile away.

The GM should not be allowed to have a SINGLE decision that's horrible in theory. This is his job. If he does something that's obviously mindnumbingly stupid to everyone involved in the game, then he doesn't deserve to keep his job.

Agreed, BC has had many moves that were terrible in theory

The JO trade was terrible from the start because of how much money he made. Paying 20-22 mil for a player of JO at that time's caliber is going to hurt a team's chances to win. Redistributing the money will create more wins than that. It would've been a bad trade just for TJ and Rasho, with the 1st it was horrible

Most of BC's FA signings are poor in theory. A lot of smart teams are looking at contracts from 6 to 10 mil like they do at midrange jumpshots. Don't take them. The difference between those players and the ones on fractional deals is too small and it hurts flexibility too much

BC doesn't understand why having small assets (non lotto 1st rd picks, 2nd rounders on cheap deals, retaining young players like Bayless and JJ, etc.) is important. It's not about those players themselves but accumulating trade assets and value. The easiest way to get good players is to trade good value for them and we rarely focus on getting valued trade assets

Not trading Bosh was bad in theory. He was uncommitted if not full on telling BC he was going to leave and we didn't pick up the assets for him. My theory on the Bosh situation is that we put him on the block at the deadline but with half a year left nobody wanted to give up much for him. BC probably had a Beasley, 1st offer on the table from Miami as his best offer and turned it down because he wanted to make the playoffs. I mean we even turned down Beasley in the S&T.

Furthermore I've always felt one of the smoking guns for BC being dumb, is that before the fruitman S&T in the Hedo deal, we were on the verge of just signing him straight up, which would've meant renouncing our FAs and MLE. We would've had no flexibility besides minimums to sign anyone else to compliment the Calderon, Bosh, Hedo, Bargnani foursome, no Jack or Belli or Amir. In other words it'd have been the exact same situation as the JO year, with the top 4 guys being solid but nothing behind them. Somehow BC watched the 08-09 season and thought switching Hedo for JO/Marion, but leaving the depth just as terrible probably with Ukic and Jake the Snake coming back, would work out and be enough to resign Bosh. Think about that. That's absolutely ridiculous. That team without the depth would've had 0 chance. That's an example of BC's "in theory" planning was actually much worse than what really happened

Finally, the 2012 draft. Personally I'm the biggest fan here of Ross and I believe he will be an all-star. With that said I think the theory behind the pick was much much worse than what actually happened. I don't believe BC saw Ross as some diamond in the rough Marion/Amare all-star steal at all, if he did we would've heard way more hype coming from his mouth. He even said we won too many games last year. Essentially "in theory" BC made these hugely incriminating moves:

- Trading a future pick for Lowry, when we could've surely done #8 for him which would've been better for us, if not #8 for Lowry and #18. We didn't want Lowry on draft night because we wanted a 38 year old Steve Nash instead for our crappy super young team LOL!

- Not drafting a "top 3 talent" in BC's eyes because he didn't fit our team (positionally?). Did we pass on Drummond just because he was a big?

- If we weren't enamored with Ross, refusing to trade down when the gap between Drummond and picks at 9+ likely would've fetched a very decent price.

- Not taking Machado at 56 because we wanted to cap our rookies at 3 this year and because we wanted to go veteran with the 3rd PG. Not taking Quincy Miller over Quincy Acy when in reality we likely considered him the more talented player.

So yeah while I'm OK with the results of the 2012 draft right now, "in theory", BC did a lot of things that could've turned out horribly. If Ross ends up an all-star I'll consider him to have fallen a** backwards into that success to be honest, there's no evidence right now that BC likes Ross more than the countless RealGM posters who thinks his upside will top out at 3pt shooting role player

And the Derozan contract, I mean I don't even know what to say. He's never broken 15 PER and year to year puts up replacement level WS scores and on top of that he probably has as little 'non-statistical' value as anyone at his position because a SG who doesn't shoot 3s kills spacing, not to mention his poor defense, so if anything PER which can't track defense is liable to overrate him. Add in the fact that we didn't have to sign him and had just drafted a SG and this contract is just a flat out embarrassment and one of the biggest jokes of a contract the league has seen in the last 10 years, the fact that he's still doing his empty 18ppg thing is hiding just how bad this contract is, it's as bad as if someone gave Gerald Henderson or Psycho T or Corey Brewer 10 million a year this summer. A team giving Derozan even 6 million a year would be a bad decision because of the before-mentioned "don't give out average player contracts" movement, when you can replace Demar with a guy like Alan Anderson or Dorrel Wright off the scrap heap at any time at a cheaper, 1-2 yr price, it's just not worth it to give a guy 4 years at 5-6 mil+ a season. Giving that player 9.5 million a year is just transcendent overpayment GM stupidity, just absolutely inane and unbelievable

As a whole, many of BC's moves are "in theory" terrible. He overpays players, waits far too long to trade them when their value peaks, doesn't go after non lottery draft picks, and just has crap vision

[Dr Octagon]

I was listening near the end of the game. Those guys are unbearable. Can't stand them anymore.

[dTox]

Its at a point in time where its painfully obvious that these guys are saying whatever they are saying because of the company they work for. There were times when they went out of their way to defend Andrea when he had those 3-18 nights and played terrible D, they kept going off about his 7 or 8 boards and how he tried in at least 1 catagory, as if this was some game of wheel chair basketball and everyone gets a pat on the back just for playing. We'll certainly hear their real opinions of BC/Andrea once they leave Toronto, its the standard protocol for all the company paid journalists.

[Big Shot]

I stopped listening to them 2 years ago and then found my life much more enjoyable and peaceful.