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OKC Exposed Demar Derozan game + thoughts on Raps

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Post#46 Re: OKC Exposed Demar Derozan game + thoughts
Mon Jan 7, 2013 5:27 pm by kalel123

DeMar DeRozan is the least of our problems.

With so many holes elsewhere, there's no point in singling out DeMar DeRozan for his limitations cause trading him won't solve our biggest problems. He can be a solid contributor in a winning situation or be a solid trading chip when we are actually ready to take the next step.
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Post#47 Re: OKC Exposed Demar Derozan game + thoughts
Mon Jan 7, 2013 5:43 pm by JunkYardSubs

kalel123 wrote:DeMar DeRozan is the least of our problems.

He can be a solid contributor in a winning situation

I dont think he can
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Post#48 Re: OKC Exposed Demar Derozan game + thoughts
Mon Jan 7, 2013 5:53 pm by Big Shot

"A solid contributor in a winning situation" means nothing and can be applied to almost any player in the league. If a player plays with 4 great/good players, his weaknesses can be easily camouflaged.
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Post#49 Re: OKC Exposed Demar Derozan game + thoughts
Mon Jan 7, 2013 6:01 pm by kalel123

JunkYardSubs wrote:
kalel123 wrote:DeMar DeRozan is the least of our problems.

He can be a solid contributor in a winning situation

I dont think he can


See the second part of my statement. He's easily tradeable if he can't be. The fact is he's improved almost every single year of his young career with the exception of lockout-shortened season after coaching change. There's no reason to think he can't continue to evolve. Even if he stagnates, he's not paid that much by today's standards and he's made strides this year to be worth his contract and not regress like some people tend to do after big extension. That makes me confident that he'll continue to take steps to try and improve so he'll at least be tradeable for a good piece and not become a Bargnani.

Like I said, he's the least of our problems and you are looking in the wrong direction if you are pointing your fingers at him right now and talking like trading him will somehow magically solve our biggest of the problems.
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Post#50 Re: OKC Exposed Demar Derozan game + thoughts
Mon Jan 7, 2013 6:07 pm by JV4MVP

kalel123 wrote:DeMar DeRozan is the least of our problems.


His salary will become an issue.

The only area where he excels at is midrange scoring. Does that warrant a $40M investment, sacrificing cap space with a $4M a year premium? He's not a good defender, he can't playmake for others, and he doesn't rebound or get steals. Even his specialty, scoring, is a function of playing 37 minutes a game and being fairly ball dominant. He has never had a game winning shot in his career and I don't recall him taking over a 4th quarter. He rarely strings together a complete game.
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Post#51 Re: OKC Exposed Demar Derozan game + thoughts
Mon Jan 7, 2013 6:53 pm by Danchan

kalel123 wrote:See the second part of my statement. He's easily tradeable if he can't be. The fact is he's improved almost every single year of his young career with the exception of lockout-shortened season after coaching change.



Prove? or are you seeing the maturity process of every single player that has been force fed minutes despite how well he performed.
Even if he "improved" every year, it wasn't at any meaningful increments. If anything he just allocated his energy to the right place where it shows up more on the stats sheet.
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Post#52 Re: OKC Exposed Demar Derozan game + thoughts
Mon Jan 7, 2013 6:58 pm by kalel123

Regression2u wrote:
kalel123 wrote:DeMar DeRozan is the least of our problems.


His salary will become an issue.

The only area where he excels at is midrange scoring. Does that warrant a $40M investment, sacrificing cap space with a $4M a year premium? He's not a good defender, he can't playmake for others, and he doesn't rebound or get steals. Even his specialty, scoring, is a function of playing 37 minutes a game and being fairly ball dominant. He has never had a game winning shot in his career and I don't recall him taking over a 4th quarter. He rarely strings together a complete game.


Take your blinders off and look around the league. He's not being paid an outrageous amount and he's inching closer and closer to being worth the price. His rebounding has gone up to a respectable level considering his position/height. He's now rebounding very close to the rate that he should be. His effectiveness has gone up if you actually look at games. And he ain't ball dominant. It's not like we continuously run plays for him, we probably don't run enough plays. He avg's less than 2 turnovers a game, does that sound like a ball dominant guard to you? He's got his flaws sure but you aren't going to get a perfect player at $10M a year in this day and age.
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Post#53 Re: OKC Exposed Demar Derozan game + thoughts
Mon Jan 7, 2013 7:17 pm by Just Win Baby

Death Knight wrote:It's the same excuse as the OKC being an elite team thing, which I mentioned earlier in this thread. Thabo is just partially responsible for DeMar's struggle.

Agreed, but its clear DeMar isn't to the point where he can be relied on to torch an established shut-down defender.

TooHood wrote:
Terrible1 wrote:I hope you all are aware that Thabo is easily one of the best defenders in the league and has even locked down LEBRON at times.


thabo is a good defender but almost every team has one of em so that cant possibly be a excuse

That's not true. Not saying Thabo is one of a kind but he is a top defender and I would say very few teams have players as good as him (on defense ofcourse).
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Post#54 Re: OKC Exposed Demar Derozan game + thoughts
Mon Jan 7, 2013 7:19 pm by Dalek

I am not going to wade into whether Demar is a star, semi-star, or any other prescribed label. I will say that when I see him have ineffective games it is when guys play physical with him. I noticed a ton of arm grabbing and some hard hits put on him last game, and it has been a trend with most of his poor games. Play him physically, and he will back down. I think everyone has seen his frustration level at the lack of respect he receives. I think if you get in his head a bit with some rough stuff, he doesn't yet know how to respond.

The other issue from yesterday was that the Raps were just rushed. OKC's defense makes you play rushed, but that said, the team could pump fake a bit more and slow down the pace. OKC did not get fouled enough and had too many fastbreak points.
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Post#55 Re: OKC Exposed Demar Derozan game + thoughts
Mon Jan 7, 2013 9:34 pm by Danchan

incidentally teams starts playing physical and rough when it comes to crunch time... which is why DD usually under performs in the clutch. now the question is, would he EVER get better and gain composure? He's been our closing line up for as long as I remember... a sg that can't create/score/defend in the 4th might as well be off the court and make way for someone with real swagger.
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Post#56 Re: OKC Exposed Demar Derozan game + thoughts
Mon Jan 7, 2013 9:57 pm by junot111

Terrible1 wrote:I hope you all are aware that Thabo is easily one of the best defenders in the league and has even locked down LEBRON at times.

This is VERY true but star players are supposed to be able to score against good defense, that's what you have scorers for. Otherwise forget your hopes of a championship. And that's the point of this thread, I think. DeMar just isn't good enough as a key piece for us if we ever want to go far. Obviously this would be moot if this was just an isolated incident, but I think we all know that this was not just a bad performance but a result of his inability to step up against a good team
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Post#57 Re: OKC Exposed Demar Derozan game + thoughts
Tue Jan 8, 2013 9:57 am by Troubadour

Death Knight wrote:
dagger wrote:I think we knew DeMar isn't a superstar. With our weaknesses at other positions, as well as our injuries - four bigs out, basically forcing Amir and Ed to play even when it might have been nice to put in somebody with more offence at PF, you would expect OKC to focus on shutting down DeMar's driving lanes and take away the space on screens he needs to get an open look.

It's not rocket science - when your starting lineup is Jose, DeMar, Pietrus, Amir and Ed, who the f@q is going to score, and who does the opponent key on?


Give it up already Dagger. Blaming others for a player's struggle. You really want to do a Bargnani on DeRozan? Blame Bargnani's struggles on his teammates.

Not a superstar? How about not even a star? And no, OKC did not focus on DeMar. They defended DeMar 1 on 1, and any decent defender can shut him down more often than not. DeMar should be thankful that Sefolosha is a limited offensive player and did not go bonkers on him, so he got a day off on the defensive end.


OKC plays strong enough team defense to not need to double someone like Demar. It's not making an excuse. It's simple logic. If there is one high scorer in the game, the gameplan is to stop him from scoring. Simple as that. You might have noticed the Alan Anderson gravy train only ran for so long. A team like the Thunder counts on being able to stop the premier scorer on each team, forcing other players on the team to step up.
KnicksGod wrote:You can probably name on two hands and maybe one foot the number of 7-footers in the history of the game as offensively skilled as Bargnani is.
Dirk, Kareem, Bargs


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Post#58 Re: OKC Exposed Demar Derozan game + thoughts
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:25 am by Death Knight

Troubadour wrote:
Death Knight wrote:
dagger wrote:I think we knew DeMar isn't a superstar. With our weaknesses at other positions, as well as our injuries - four bigs out, basically forcing Amir and Ed to play even when it might have been nice to put in somebody with more offence at PF, you would expect OKC to focus on shutting down DeMar's driving lanes and take away the space on screens he needs to get an open look.

It's not rocket science - when your starting lineup is Jose, DeMar, Pietrus, Amir and Ed, who the f@q is going to score, and who does the opponent key on?


Give it up already Dagger. Blaming others for a player's struggle. You really want to do a Bargnani on DeRozan? Blame Bargnani's struggles on his teammates.

Not a superstar? How about not even a star? And no, OKC did not focus on DeMar. They defended DeMar 1 on 1, and any decent defender can shut him down more often than not. DeMar should be thankful that Sefolosha is a limited offensive player and did not go bonkers on him, so he got a day off on the defensive end.


OKC plays strong enough team defense to not need to double someone like Demar. It's not making an excuse. It's simple logic. If there is one high scorer in the game, the gameplan is to stop him from scoring. Simple as that. You might have noticed the Alan Anderson gravy train only ran for so long. A team like the Thunder counts on being able to stop the premier scorer on each team, forcing other players on the team to step up.


You said it, it's simple logic, so there's no need to bring it up. If you bring it up, it turns into an excuse. Know what I mean?

And like I've said, OKC's defense is just partial to DeMar's struggles. His offensive game hasn't expanded enough to where he can score in multiple ways. He can only score given a few scenarios. His best offense still comes from the help of his teammates to get him open coming off screens and getting a shot up or driving lane to the basket, which he's not very good at finishing and relies too much on getting calls.
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Post#59 Re: OKC Exposed Demar Derozan game + thoughts
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:50 am by DG88

I laugh at the people here who say that DeRozan was not the focus of OKC's defense. Hello guess who's our leading scorer on our team because it's not Lowry or Bargnani but DeRozan. It's something called scouting your opposition and using it to slow down you opponent. Yes DD has his limitation but he's played well enough for defenses to go after him. At this point in time is the adjustment period for DeMar and we know he's been watching tape on how defenses are denying him of his sweet spots. It's another learning experience for him and you know damn well he's gonna work his butt off to make counters for when defenses come at him in a certain way.
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Post#60 Re: OKC Exposed Demar Derozan game + thoughts
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:57 am by Troubadour

Death Knight wrote:
Troubadour wrote:
Death Knight wrote:
Give it up already Dagger. Blaming others for a player's struggle. You really want to do a Bargnani on DeRozan? Blame Bargnani's struggles on his teammates.

Not a superstar? How about not even a star? And no, OKC did not focus on DeMar. They defended DeMar 1 on 1, and any decent defender can shut him down more often than not. DeMar should be thankful that Sefolosha is a limited offensive player and did not go bonkers on him, so he got a day off on the defensive end.


OKC plays strong enough team defense to not need to double someone like Demar. It's not making an excuse. It's simple logic. If there is one high scorer in the game, the gameplan is to stop him from scoring. Simple as that. You might have noticed the Alan Anderson gravy train only ran for so long. A team like the Thunder counts on being able to stop the premier scorer on each team, forcing other players on the team to step up.


You said it, it's simple logic, so there's no need to bring it up. If you bring it up, it turns into an excuse. Know what I mean?

And like I've said, OKC's defense is just partial to DeMar's struggles. His offensive game hasn't expanded enough to where he can score in multiple ways. He can only score given a few scenarios. His best offense still comes from the help of his teammates to get him open coming off screens and getting a shot up or driving lane to the basket, which he's not very good at finishing and relies too much on getting calls.


So, if you make someone aware of logic they choose to ignore, it automatically becomes an excuse. That's an interesting piece of logic right there.

Relies too much on getting calls? He never gets calls. Yet, somehow this is his highest scoring year in the league. Funny how that works.

You seem hellbent on turning every possible reason for his struggles against the Thunder into an excuse from the BC Administration. The reality, however, is that he had a bad game against the best team in the league. It happens. If you expect a player who we knew would be a project to have reached his peak after four years, you're sadly mistaken.
KnicksGod wrote:You can probably name on two hands and maybe one foot the number of 7-footers in the history of the game as offensively skilled as Bargnani is.
Dirk, Kareem, Bargs


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Post#61 Re: OKC Exposed Demar Derozan game + thoughts
Tue Jan 8, 2013 11:13 am by Death Knight

I'll give you an example that will make it easier for you to understand. Lets say a 1pm game is an early game. Players are not used to it. 1pm = early game = fact = logic. We know that. And if you bring it up for whatever reason, it becomes an excuse. Hell, let me give another example I've heard. Incoming teams (road teams) coming in to play these early games usually party the night before, and thus it gives the home team an advantage. If the road team loses and they bring up partying, then it becomes an excuse. You don't bring things up if you don't intent on using it as an excuse, especially when it's something that we already know without you having to remind us of it.

Highest scoring year also = highest fg attempted year. Funny how that works. You take more shots, you have a good chance of scoring more. Wow! Amazing eh?

No DG88, OKC did not focus on Demar. This garbage team doesn't even have 1 single player worthy of that. There's very little separation between players on this roster. But if you want to believe that, then lets play this game. If DeMar was focused on, then he shouldn't have forced up 16 bad shots. If they focused on Demar, that must have meant teammates were open. Pass the damn ball. But that might be asking for too much, because Demar's passing vision is still below average.

Once again, I'm not a player fan. I'm a fan of the team. I don't care for hating or loving any 1 single player. I don't get too attached to any 1 player. Just tell it like it is.
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Post#62 Re: OKC Exposed Demar Derozan game + thoughts
Tue Jan 8, 2013 11:22 am by Indeed

DG88 wrote:I laugh at the people here who say that DeRozan was not the focus of OKC's defense. Hello guess who's our leading scorer on our team because it's not Lowry or Bargnani but DeRozan. It's something called scouting your opposition and using it to slow down you opponent. Yes DD has his limitation but he's played well enough for defenses to go after him. At this point in time is the adjustment period for DeMar and we know he's been watching tape on how defenses are denying him of his sweet spots. It's another learning experience for him and you know damn well he's gonna work his butt off to make counters for when defenses come at him in a certain way.


Laugh at me as much as you want, OKC did not lock him down. The Spurs game where Leonard was denying DeRozan getting his touches was game planned. OKC definitely played more physical, and hedge at the screen to reduce his catch and shoot opportunities, but if DeRozan wants the ball, OKC allows him to take it on the perimeter, unlike the Spurs game.
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Post#63 Re: OKC Exposed Demar Derozan game + thoughts
Tue Jan 8, 2013 11:26 am by RaptorReloaded

Death Knight wrote:I'll give you an example that will make it easier for you to understand. Lets say a 1pm game is an early game. Players are not used to it. 1pm = early game = fact = logic. We know that. And if you bring it up for whatever reason, it becomes an excuse. Hell, let me give another example I've heard. Incoming teams (road teams) coming in to play these early games usually party the night before, and thus it gives the home team an advantage. If the road team loses and they bring up partying, then it becomes an excuse. You don't bring things up if you don't intent on using it as an excuse, especially when it's something that we already know without you having to remind us of it.

Highest scoring year also = highest fg attempted year. Funny how that works. You take more shots, you have a good chance of scoring more. Wow! Amazing eh?

No DG88, OKC did not focus on Demar. This garbage team doesn't even have 1 single player worthy of that. There's very little separation between players on this roster. But if you want to believe that, then lets play this game. If DeMar was focused on, then he shouldn't have forced up 16 bad shots. If they focused on Demar, that must have meant teammates were open. Pass the damn ball. But that might be asking for too much, because Demar's passing vision is still below average.

Once again, I'm not a player fan. I'm a fan of the team. I don't care for hating or loving any 1 single player. I don't get too attached to any 1 player. Just tell it like it is.


I agree with what you're saying but OKC did focus on Demar. It was evident from the tip and Jack was pointing it out 2 minutes into the game. Having said that it's up to DD to adjust and not take 4 or 5 bad shots which he did. He's 23. He'll learn.
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Post#64 Re: OKC Exposed Demar Derozan game + thoughts
Tue Jan 8, 2013 6:28 pm by Dr Positivity

Demar is just flat out medicore

Forget the PPG and ask yourself what this guy does well compared to the average SG

Shooting... below average most SGs have better range than him
Slashing... He's a decent athlete, but weak first step and lack of ballhandling prevents him from slicing teams up.
Creating his own jumpshot... not really
Moving off the ball... meh
Passing... no
Defense... no

Why should we believe he's an above average SG when he doesn't do anything better than them? His role is to be a slasher but his lack of elite speed or ballhandling does not make him dynamic in the area. His main weapon is a midrange shot, a skill pretty much every single perimeter player in the league has and which most smart teams are realizing is a shot you want to avoid efficiency wise
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Post#65 Re: OKC Exposed Demar Derozan game + thoughts
Tue Jan 8, 2013 6:48 pm by fatal9

I think at this point fans kind of cling on to an image of "more athletic Rip Hamilton"...which just disrespects Rip's ability to play basketball. Rip was a very good/smart passer, way better at moving off the ball (Ray Allen like...but inside the 3 pt line), more efficient/consistent shooter from midrange, had more range if he wanted to utilize that part of his game, but just on a different level bball IQ wise on offense. By his second season, he already put together a more productive season than DeMar is having in his fourth year and was averaging the same amount of ppg in 6 less minutes. Rip didn't start making DeMar type of money until his 9th season after being on a championship squad and making a couple of all-star teams. That should help put in perspective how bad and unwarranted DD's contract really is.

If you look at DeMar's ppg/apg/3PM numbers in context of the type of minutes he is playing, he gets exposed as being a historically limited player. That's without even needing to break down his game/skills for how hollow and useless they really are. When you have the type of work ethic that he reportedly has and you are still so mediocre after so many minutes/games played, it's time to accept that he simply doesn't have the talent instead of making excuses.
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