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Why do we care so much about the money?

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Post#46 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Mon Jan 7, 2013 10:14 pm by Tofubeque

If you overpay a player you diminish their value. It's as simple as that.

If Bargnani and Derozan were paid what they're worth (5-8 million range), we would have no problems packaging them and getting an all-star talent in return. If Rudy Gay was paid what he was worth, the Grizzlies wouldn't be handcuffed in moving him and praying they at least get a good draft pick in return.

The problem isn't just that we won't be able to sign more free agents; the problem is our trade options are diminished and we've chained ourselves to our existing, mediocre assets. It's bad management 101.
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Post#47 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Mon Jan 7, 2013 10:59 pm by Volcano

it's not about the money money money
we don't need your money money money
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Post#48 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 2:14 am by Scase

ruckus wrote:
Scase wrote:I know they say there's no such thing as a stupid question, but this is getting pretty close.

The more money you spend on mediocre players the less money you have to spend on players that are worth it.
The average cost of an NBA win is 1.8m dollars. More of those millions spent on players that can't come close to averaging enough wins vs their salary, makes it nigh on impossible to have a winning team.


I don't believe in this dollars per win/money ball nonsense. That's small market thinking. We are not a small market.

I'd rather be known as a team that goes all out to win instead of the team that tries to pick and choose free agents and still gets shot down in the end.


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Are you effing kidding me?

It's called VALUE. If a player is paid more than he's worth that's bad VALUE. Thus making him a hindrance instead of an asset. And if said hindrance isn't working out his VALUE is lower due to being overpaid and harder to TRADE. Thus shackling the team with that bad VALUE contract that no one wants. Having an entire team of these causes a team to become what the raps are. A crappy team going nowhere fast.

How you have made it to the age you have and not learned the value of a dollar is beyond me.
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Post#49 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 7:12 am by West Rouge

This guy must have went to the BC school of GM'ing.
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Post#50 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 7:25 am by ruckus

Scase wrote:Are you effing kidding me?

It's called VALUE. If a player is paid more than he's worth that's bad VALUE. Thus making him a hindrance instead of an asset. And if said hindrance isn't working out his VALUE is lower due to being overpaid and harder to TRADE. Thus shackling the team with that bad VALUE contract that no one wants. Having an entire team of these causes a team to become what the raps are. A crappy team going nowhere fast.

How you have made it to the age you have and not learned the value of a dollar is beyond me.


Other than Fields, which contracts on this team are bad? Jose? 10 points, 10 assists, no turnovers. 10 mil is fair value. Demar? He's still on a rookie deal. Great value for his production. Even at his extension, for the numbers that he produces, he is paid fairly. Even Bargs, if he was playing non-crappily is fair value for his contract.

Its not contracts that are holding us back nor are they the reason this team currently sucks.

Who on our team is bad value?


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Post#51 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 7:38 am by UcanUwill

The_Hater wrote:While there is definitely less of an issue in a league without a salary cap or luxury tax, you should still care with what your Euro teams spend because the owner has almost certainly placed a spending budget on team salary.


Definitely, but well... you know what I meant. Still, sports teams and its owners are predictable over there, budgets are so uneven and contracts are very short. You can have 0 players signed, you still know what team you gonna get, pretty much. Spending budget is not absolute, its flexible, owner tries to spend as less as possible, but if team is terribly underperforming, owner usually throws some extra cash. So, at the end, bad contracts doesn't really bother you that much, if at all.
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Post#52 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 9:12 am by lobosloboslobos

ruckus wrote:
Other than Fields, which contracts on this team are bad? Jose? 10 points, 10 assists, no turnovers. 10 mil is fair value. Demar? He's still on a rookie deal. Great value for his production. Even at his extension, for the numbers that he produces, he is paid fairly. Even Bargs, if he was playing non-crappily is fair value for his contract.

Its not contracts that are holding us back nor are they the reason this team currently sucks.

Who on our team is bad value?



I asked another question earlier in this thread: who have we not been able to sign because we didn't have enough money? alternately, who have we not been able to trade because of their salary?

none has gotten an answer. I fully get the arguments about player value and the cap and trade-ablness, etc.and of course they are all totally and completely valid in general. but personally i'd like to know how our team has suffered from bad contracts. again, i'm not saying it hasn't, and it's not something i pay that much attention to so i'm quite willing to be educated, but so far not one post has even tried to make an argument showing how the raps specifically have suffered from bad contracts. who were we unable to sign because of lack of cap room, or trade because of their bad contract, or whose contract has otherwise been a major burden for us?

and beyond those questions, how does our situation with regard to bad contracts compare to other teams in the league? are we better or worse off than most, contract-wise, esp given we all agree we have to pay some kind of Canadian team premium?

again, not claiming to know or to be defying logic or anything, just asking for people to show an ignorant noob how bad contracts or salary cap mismanagement has specifically hurt the raps in recent years.
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Post#53 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 9:38 am by orbesnet

I actually agree with some of the "why do we care" talk.

We have never really made a big off season acquisition.... the idea that the cap could hold us back is legit for teams that may draw some big names, not our problem.

I always thought the reason that money was such a consideration was because MLSE was at the reigns, and we all know they weren't going over the cap (especially when the team was still profitable without going over). Maybe that will change going forward.

Guys getting bad contracts... it happens, sometimes those bad contracts work in your favor, in a trade or otherwise, when expiring.

I chalk it up to video game management modes, fantasy leagues, nothing better to talk about and the fact that most sports fans are jock/business-men types... that and a lot of people just think they know better.
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Post#54 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:01 am by Troubadour

number15 wrote:Example:

Demar Derozan was a major trade chip in last offseason even though RAPS wanted to keep him.... now though, teams will not give nearly as much for him because he is considered overpaid. His trade value just halfed out.


Unless you are intimately familiar with an NBA franchise's inner workings, I really doubt you know what you're talking about. Demar's scoring and rebounding has gone up, he's shooting fairly well, and he's proven himself to be a hardworking player in the league. People are also taking notice. If anything, his trade value has gone up over the course of this year.
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Post#55 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:02 am by SDM

lobosloboslobos wrote:
ruckus wrote:
Other than Fields, which contracts on this team are bad? Jose? 10 points, 10 assists, no turnovers. 10 mil is fair value. Demar? He's still on a rookie deal. Great value for his production. Even at his extension, for the numbers that he produces, he is paid fairly. Even Bargs, if he was playing non-crappily is fair value for his contract.

Its not contracts that are holding us back nor are they the reason this team currently sucks.

Who on our team is bad value?



I asked another question earlier in this thread: who have we not been able to sign because we didn't have enough money? alternately, who have we not been able to trade because of their salary?

none has gotten an answer. I fully get the arguments about player value and the cap and trade-ablness, etc.and of course they are all totally and completely valid in general. but personally i'd like to know how our team has suffered from bad contracts. again, i'm not saying it hasn't, and it's not something i pay that much attention to so i'm quite willing to be educated, but so far not one post has even tried to make an argument showing how the raps specifically have suffered from bad contracts. who were we unable to sign because of lack of cap room, or trade because of their bad contract, or whose contract has otherwise been a major burden for us?

and beyond those questions, how does our situation with regard to bad contracts compare to other teams in the league? are we better or worse off than most, contract-wise, esp given we all agree we have to pay some kind of Canadian team premium?

again, not claiming to know or to be defying logic or anything, just asking for people to show an ignorant noob how bad contracts or salary cap mismanagement has specifically hurt the raps in recent years.


No one has given you an answer because no one here is a GM. No one knows what's available. However, we do have the benefit of looking around the league and comparing contracts.

What I can tell you though, definitively, is that the team has never accumulated either the assets or the cap space to trade for a star or get one in free agency. Go ahead and argue against this.

The reason the Colangelo era has failed to lure stars is not because this is a Canadian team or because there isn't anywhere to buy grits, it's because he has signed the likes of Fields, Kapono, Calderon, Bargnani, Kleiza, Hedo and Amir to the tune of a quarter billion dollars. This shows no sign of reversing, with Derozan's laughable deal kicking in next year. And on top of that, roster spots are devoured by guaranteed deals to the likes of JLIII and Maceo Baston.

That's why you should care about the money.
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Post#56 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:07 am by Troubadour

Tofubeque wrote:If you overpay a player you diminish their value. It's as simple as that.

If Bargnani and Derozan were paid what they're worth (5-8 million range), we would have no problems packaging them and getting an all-star talent in return. If Rudy Gay was paid what he was worth, the Grizzlies wouldn't be handcuffed in moving him and praying they at least get a good draft pick in return.

The problem isn't just that we won't be able to sign more free agents; the problem is our trade options are diminished and we've chained ourselves to our existing, mediocre assets. It's bad management 101.


Do you honestly think Rudy Gay is a difficult player to move? Sure, logistically, it may be difficult finding a match. But when it comes to pure basketball decision-making, I am willing to bet 25 teams in the league have had internal discussions about moving for Gay. If there's a will, there's a way. Teams always find a way to get the deal done.
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Post#57 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:21 am by sanity

Overpaying for a star player is usually worth it vs. overpaying for a benchplayer who is practically replaceable with about ~80 other players scattered throughout the league earning less

Sure Gay *is* overpaid, but its not as if you can throw a player like DeRozan out at the 3 on their team and expect them to do better
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Post#58 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:33 am by Alfred

Because there is a salary cap.
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Post#59 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:34 am by West Rouge

Who cares if we suck right?
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Post#60 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:36 am by Troubadour

SDM wrote:
lobosloboslobos wrote:
ruckus wrote:
Other than Fields, which contracts on this team are bad? Jose? 10 points, 10 assists, no turnovers. 10 mil is fair value. Demar? He's still on a rookie deal. Great value for his production. Even at his extension, for the numbers that he produces, he is paid fairly. Even Bargs, if he was playing non-crappily is fair value for his contract.

Its not contracts that are holding us back nor are they the reason this team currently sucks.

Who on our team is bad value?



I asked another question earlier in this thread: who have we not been able to sign because we didn't have enough money? alternately, who have we not been able to trade because of their salary?

none has gotten an answer. I fully get the arguments about player value and the cap and trade-ablness, etc.and of course they are all totally and completely valid in general. but personally i'd like to know how our team has suffered from bad contracts. again, i'm not saying it hasn't, and it's not something i pay that much attention to so i'm quite willing to be educated, but so far not one post has even tried to make an argument showing how the raps specifically have suffered from bad contracts. who were we unable to sign because of lack of cap room, or trade because of their bad contract, or whose contract has otherwise been a major burden for us?

and beyond those questions, how does our situation with regard to bad contracts compare to other teams in the league? are we better or worse off than most, contract-wise, esp given we all agree we have to pay some kind of Canadian team premium?

again, not claiming to know or to be defying logic or anything, just asking for people to show an ignorant noob how bad contracts or salary cap mismanagement has specifically hurt the raps in recent years.


No one has given you an answer because no one here is a GM. No one knows what's available. However, we do have the benefit of looking around the league and comparing contracts.

What I can tell you though, definitively, is that the team has never accumulated either the assets or the cap space to trade for a star or get one in free agency. Go ahead and argue against this.

The reason the Colangelo era has failed to lure stars is not because this is a Canadian team or because there isn't anywhere to buy grits, it's because he has signed the likes of Fields, Kapono, Calderon, Bargnani, Kleiza, Hedo and Amir to the tune of a quarter billion dollars. This shows no sign of reversing, with Derozan's laughable deal kicking in next year. And on top of that, roster spots are devoured by guaranteed deals to the likes of JLIII and Maceo Baston.

That's why you should care about the money.


How many stars have been available over the course of the past seven years?

2006:
Nene (re-signed)
Ben Wallace (went to Chicago)

2007:
Rashard Lewis (went to Orlando)

2008:
Josh Smith (Restricted, stayed)
Andre Igoudala (Restricted, stayed)

2009:
Ben Gordon (went to Detroit)
Ron Artest (went to LAL)
Trevor Ariza (went to HOU)
Anderson Varejao (stayed)
Hedo Turkoglu (came...here...ugh)

2010:
Rudy Gay (stayed)
Joe Johnson (stayed)
LeBron James (Miami)
Dwyane Wade (stayed)
Chris Bosh (Miami)
Carlos Boozer (Chicago)
Amar'e Stoudemire (NY)

2011:
Arron Afflalo (stayed)
Nene (signed and subsequently traded, but not as a sign & trade)
Tyson Chandler (NYC)

2012:
Steve Nash (LAL)

So, looking back, how many real possibilities did we miss out on? I'd probably prefer to have Anderson Varejao over Hedo, but that might not have been a possibility. Other than that, not much else was going to happen. We have had cap space, but you should know stars in free agency do not come along very often.

Looking ahead to 2013, there is no doubt there are some stars available. Chris Paul, Brandon Jennings, Tyreke Evans, Rodney Stuckey, and possibly even Dwight Howard. Do we have the cap space for any of these players? Possibly. Is there any guarantee of a) getting them and b) them being productive on this team? Not at all.

I don't know why you're dwelling on how money makes it impossible for us to acquire stars. It's not like acquiring stars is an easy thing to do. At best, you take a risk on a player with flaws and hope that he works them out (i.e. Demarcus Cousins). If you can get him in a trade, I think you do that. Hoping that free agency or trade gets you that one shining light year after year doesn't do much. I will, however, say the Kyle Lowry trade was one of the more impressive moves. He's a legitimately talented player.
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Post#61 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:39 am by Alfred

ruckus wrote:[

Other than Fields, which contracts on this team are bad? Jose? 10 points, 10 assists, no turnovers. 10 mil is fair value. Demar? He's still on a rookie deal. Great value for his production. Even at his extension, for the numbers that he produces, he is paid fairly. Even Bargs, if he was playing non-crappily is fair value for his contract.


- Jose Calderon has been on the market for years, and he's still on the team. That should tell you something about his contract.
- Nobody is complaining about DeMar's rookie deal. They're complaining about his terrible contract that he signed this season.
- "If Bargnani wasn't terrible he'd be worth his contract". That's quite the statement.
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Post#62 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:40 am by ruckus

OK. Let's talk contracts. The big 3 that come to mind are Kapono, Hedo and JO. For all the talk that these players were overpaid, were we not able to move all 3 players for decent value? Kapono turned into Evans. Hedo into Barbosa and JO into the Matrix.



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Post#63 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:41 am by Alfred

Besides, if we have all these great value contracts, and we're right up against the salary cap, we should have a good team, right?
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Post#64 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:42 am by Alfred

ruckus wrote:OK. Let's talk contracts. The big 3 that come to mind are Kapono, Hedo and JO. For all the talk that these players were overpaid, were we not able to move all 3 players for decent value? Kapono turned into Evans. Hedo into Barbosa and JO into the Matrix.


Excuse me? The Jermaine O'Neal trade to Miami was a GOOD ONE? Are you joking?

Kapono was traded for Evans, who was then not resigned. Hedo was traded for Barbosa, who was not resigned. We then turned the cap savings into Landry Fields.
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Post#65 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:46 am by sanity

O'neal not only costed us our 1st being initially sent to Indiana (along with a massive expiring in Rasho), but it also costed us another 1st being sent to Miami. Marion was merely a rental and Marcus Banks was dead weight during that 'fix'.

I don't see how you can put any spin on O'neal not being a complete waste of salary/picks/time for this franchise
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