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Why do we care so much about the money?

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Post#61 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:39 am by Alfred

ruckus wrote:[

Other than Fields, which contracts on this team are bad? Jose? 10 points, 10 assists, no turnovers. 10 mil is fair value. Demar? He's still on a rookie deal. Great value for his production. Even at his extension, for the numbers that he produces, he is paid fairly. Even Bargs, if he was playing non-crappily is fair value for his contract.


- Jose Calderon has been on the market for years, and he's still on the team. That should tell you something about his contract.
- Nobody is complaining about DeMar's rookie deal. They're complaining about his terrible contract that he signed this season.
- "If Bargnani wasn't terrible he'd be worth his contract". That's quite the statement.
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Post#62 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:40 am by ruckus

OK. Let's talk contracts. The big 3 that come to mind are Kapono, Hedo and JO. For all the talk that these players were overpaid, were we not able to move all 3 players for decent value? Kapono turned into Evans. Hedo into Barbosa and JO into the Matrix.



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Post#63 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:41 am by Alfred

Besides, if we have all these great value contracts, and we're right up against the salary cap, we should have a good team, right?
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Post#64 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:42 am by Alfred

ruckus wrote:OK. Let's talk contracts. The big 3 that come to mind are Kapono, Hedo and JO. For all the talk that these players were overpaid, were we not able to move all 3 players for decent value? Kapono turned into Evans. Hedo into Barbosa and JO into the Matrix.


Excuse me? The Jermaine O'Neal trade to Miami was a GOOD ONE? Are you joking?

Kapono was traded for Evans, who was then not resigned. Hedo was traded for Barbosa, who was not resigned. We then turned the cap savings into Landry Fields.
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Post#65 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:46 am by sanity

O'neal not only costed us our 1st being initially sent to Indiana (along with a massive expiring in Rasho), but it also costed us another 1st being sent to Miami. Marion was merely a rental and Marcus Banks was dead weight during that 'fix'.

I don't see how you can put any spin on O'neal not being a complete waste of salary/picks/time for this franchise
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Post#66 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:46 am by SDM

Troubadour wrote:
SDM wrote:
No one has given you an answer because no one here is a GM. No one knows what's available. However, we do have the benefit of looking around the league and comparing contracts.

What I can tell you though, definitively, is that the team has never accumulated either the assets or the cap space to trade for a star or get one in free agency. Go ahead and argue against this.

The reason the Colangelo era has failed to lure stars is not because this is a Canadian team or because there isn't anywhere to buy grits, it's because he has signed the likes of Fields, Kapono, Calderon, Bargnani, Kleiza, Hedo and Amir to the tune of a quarter billion dollars. This shows no sign of reversing, with Derozan's laughable deal kicking in next year. And on top of that, roster spots are devoured by guaranteed deals to the likes of JLIII and Maceo Baston.

That's why you should care about the money.


How many stars have been available over the course of the past seven years?

2006:
Nene (re-signed)
Ben Wallace (went to Chicago)

2007:
Rashard Lewis (went to Orlando)

2008:
Josh Smith (Restricted, stayed)
Andre Igoudala (Restricted, stayed)

2009:
Ben Gordon (went to Detroit)
Ron Artest (went to LAL)
Trevor Ariza (went to HOU)
Anderson Varejao (stayed)
Hedo Turkoglu (came...here...ugh)

2010:
Rudy Gay (stayed)
Joe Johnson (stayed)
LeBron James (Miami)
Dwyane Wade (stayed)
Chris Bosh (Miami)
Carlos Boozer (Chicago)
Amar'e Stoudemire (NY)

2011:
Arron Afflalo (stayed)
Nene (signed and subsequently traded, but not as a sign & trade)
Tyson Chandler (NYC)

2012:
Steve Nash (LAL)

So, looking back, how many real possibilities did we miss out on? I'd probably prefer to have Anderson Varejao over Hedo, but that might not have been a possibility. Other than that, not much else was going to happen. We have had cap space, but you should know stars in free agency do not come along very often.

Looking ahead to 2013, there is no doubt there are some stars available. Chris Paul, Brandon Jennings, Tyreke Evans, Rodney Stuckey, and possibly even Dwight Howard. Do we have the cap space for any of these players? Possibly. Is there any guarantee of a) getting them and b) them being productive on this team? Not at all.

I don't know why you're dwelling on how money makes it impossible for us to acquire stars. It's not like acquiring stars is an easy thing to do. At best, you take a risk on a player with flaws and hope that he works them out (i.e. Demarcus Cousins). If you can get him in a trade, I think you do that. Hoping that free agency or trade gets you that one shining light year after year doesn't do much. I will, however, say the Kyle Lowry trade was one of the more impressive moves. He's a legitimately talented player.


You don't know why I'm dwelling on how money makes it impossible for us to acquire stars when we sign the likes of Kapono et all for a quarter billion dollars in a salary cap league? You don't see how having Jalen Rose (and having to trade a pick to get rid of him) and JO (and having to trade a pick to get rid of him) as the most expensive players on the team severely limits your ability to get better and attract better players?

Stop the defeatist nonsense. We don't attract stars because we don't have cap space to accept crappy deals for picks... like Cleveland did when they got LAC's #1. We also don't have the cap space to target free agents when they do become available because the year prior we re-upped the likes of Derozan, Bargnani, and Calderon and bid against ourselves for the likes of Fields and Hedo.

This is amazing. How can you guys not see that aside from talent, money is the single most important consideration for putting together a winning club? Like, is this bizarro land?
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Post#67 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:46 am by ruckus

Alfred wrote:Besides, if we have all these great value contracts, and we're right up against the salary cap, we should have a good team, right?

I wouldn't say we have a ton of great value contracts. We have mix of good value, fair value and poor value.

Plus, although the info may be outdated, hoopshype has our salaries at 26th out of a 30 team league. Only Sac, Cha, Pho and Hou have lower payrolls.

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Post#68 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:48 am by West Rouge

Aww so are you saying BC know what hes doing?
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Post#69 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 11:05 am by ruckus

Alfred wrote:
ruckus wrote:OK. Let's talk contracts. The big 3 that come to mind are Kapono, Hedo and JO. For all the talk that these players were overpaid, were we not able to move all 3 players for decent value? Kapono turned into Evans. Hedo into Barbosa and JO into the Matrix.


Excuse me? The Jermaine O'Neal trade to Miami was a GOOD ONE? Are you joking?

Kapono was traded for Evans, who was then not resigned. Hedo was traded for Barbosa, who was not resigned. We then turned the cap savings into Landry Fields.


I'm not saying the trade was good but, most people's point of contention for bad contacts is that they are not moveable. JO's massive contract was moved twice within the span of one year.


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Post#70 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 11:08 am by ruckus

West Rouge wrote:Aww so are you saying BC know what hes doing?


Far from it. However, the one thing that BC has shown he is capable of doing is managing the cap. That doesn't mean that his overall vision for this team is haphazard and poorly planned.

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Post#71 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 11:26 am by The_Hater

Troubadour wrote:
number15 wrote:Example:

Demar Derozan was a major trade chip in last offseason even though RAPS wanted to keep him.... now though, teams will not give nearly as much for him because he is considered overpaid. His trade value just halfed out.


Unless you are intimately familiar with an NBA franchise's inner workings, I really doubt you know what you're talking about. Demar's scoring and rebounding has gone up, he's shooting fairly well, and he's proven himself to be a hardworking player in the league. People are also taking notice. If anything, his trade value has gone up over the course of this year.


Come on, this isn't even debateable. It's only common sense that Derozan at 3 times the salary has far less trade value in a league with a salary cap.

Sure, DeRozan is a better player than he was last season but to argue that his trade value as actually gone up is foolish.
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Post#72 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 11:34 am by 416

Scase wrote:
ruckus wrote:
Scase wrote:I know they say there's no such thing as a stupid question, but this is getting pretty close.

The more money you spend on mediocre players the less money you have to spend on players that are worth it.
The average cost of an NBA win is 1.8m dollars. More of those millions spent on players that can't come close to averaging enough wins vs their salary, makes it nigh on impossible to have a winning team.


I don't believe in this dollars per win/money ball nonsense. That's small market thinking. We are not a small market.

I'd rather be known as a team that goes all out to win instead of the team that tries to pick and choose free agents and still gets shot down in the end.


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Are you effing kidding me?

It's called VALUE. If a player is paid more than he's worth that's bad VALUE. Thus making him a hindrance instead of an asset. And if said hindrance isn't working out his VALUE is lower due to being overpaid and harder to TRADE. Thus shackling the team with that bad VALUE contract that no one wants. Having an entire team of these causes a team to become what the raps are. A crappy team going nowhere fast.

How you have made it to the age you have and not learned the value of a dollar is beyond me.


I know you can handle it, so going to be a devils advocate here.

Getting good value players is a good rule of thumb, but not the golden measuring stick that most make it out to be.

If that was true, you can compose a whole team with serviceable players on rookie contracts; it'll meet the criteria of players > value of contract. However this team won't probably go anywhere.

Some finance savvy folks will say that if you have assets > book value, then you can flip them for better assets. That is entirely true given that the market is liquid. However the NBA is not like the stock market where you can flip assets whenever you choose to. Illiquidity is a cost, and thus a premium has to be charged on that.

Then there is gaming. This really @#$%s up the fair value of assets. Colangelo trying to block a Nash trade to NY by offering Landry a bloated contract will mess up his value because the contract value isn't tied directly to the value of the asset (the player) anymore. This is one example where there are other factors than intrinsic value of the player dictating the value of the contract.

Also on the point of intrinsic value, I agree that this is the "truest" way to equate contract value with the player/asset. However without a crystal ball/hindsight, valuation in this manner will most likely be off. This is because intrinsic value tries to capture both the current value of the asset as well as the future value of the asset. Since it is too difficult to predict what the future value of any player is going to be, in practice, there is a mismatch between player and contract value.

The only alternative that is left then is comparative value. This method is using similar assets to value your own. The downside here is that, unless you are comparing your assets with another that is accurately valued, player/contract value will be misaligned once again.

And the list goes on to as why contracts are valued improperly. A GM's job on the line, injuries, cognitive biases, etc all play into this.

This is why it is difficult to offer contracts based on wins/dollar, in a vacuum it works, in practicality it only serves as a guideline at best.
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Post#73 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 11:52 am by Just Win Baby

As people have said, we don't care about the money but we do care about cap space. Bad contracts directly effect the moves we can make in the free agency and in trades. A bad contract can hamstring a team going forward.
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Post#74 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 11:55 am by lobosloboslobos

The_Hater wrote:
Come on, this isn't even debateable. It's only common sense that Derozan at 3 times the salary has far less trade value in a league with a salary cap.

Sure, DeRozan is a better player than he was last season but to argue that his trade value as actually gone up is foolish.


Talented players on rookie contracts are of course going to be ultra-tradeable. But DeRozan was going to get paid by someone without any doubt. You could argue nobody would make an offer as fat as ours, but is that really true given the deals other guys have gotten recently. last year guys consistently got paid a lot more than people here thought they would. why would it be different for DD? so you may not like the cost, and you may not like the player, but the signing seems to be quite in line with league standards, don't you think? possibly a tad high, though not if DD continues to improve, and besides as we know possibly it takes more to sign guys in canada. and since there aren't a whole lot of guys available to us who on the free market and since DD is young and improving (keeping in mind he is not being paid all-star money) it seems to me hard to argue that this was a terrible or extravagant contract, even if you don't like the player.
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Post#75 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 1:25 pm by Abba Zabba

I'll agree that although cap management is important this board, as usual, does tend to go into hysterics over slight over pays.

On any given team you will find some contracts that are under pays (Anderson, Lowry, Ed, all 3 of our Rooks) and some over pays (Fields, Kleiza, Amir, Bargs, Calderone, DD).

Only Fields and Kleiza are drastic overpays at this point (unless Bargs never returns to his form from the last 2 years) and Anderson and Lowry are drastic under pays. In a perfect world i'd like more cap space but contracts are not what is killing this team. Constant winging over the extra 1.5 million a year that you thought DD didn't deserve is just pure meaningless whining.
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Post#76 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 1:36 pm by lucky777s

The 1.5 million per year, per contract may be exactly why the Raps cannot complete a Rudy Gay trade today.

Teams looking to dump quality players are usually doing it for character or salary cap reasons. If all you have is poor value contracts it makes it much harder to take advantage of those situations.

Cap room is just as important for trades as it is signing FA's too. And if your team is always close to the tax line and one of your draft picks explodes into max money range you have to jettison other big contracts to avoid the tax.

Paying crap players 5+ Mill for no reason whatsoever is the dumbest thing a GM can do. The Fields signing is just insane. The Kleiza signing and Barnes pursuit was years too late and made no sense at the time.

Yes you can move any contract. But having to do that usually costs you something - a draft pick, a downgrade in talent, a dead weight contract, a lost year as you are forced to wait out an expiring to re-tool once again. The lost opportunity of signing the right guy.

The Raps may never tank hard enough to get a first overall pick, but we could have taken on a contract like BDavis and got that first overall pick with salary cap space. that one move may save the CLE franchise who have otherwise not drafted that well. And now they have cap space again this summer and a guy in Varajeo that many, many teams would want.
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Post#77 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 1:36 pm by SDM

Kleiza, Calderon, Bargnani, Fields, and Amir are, collectively, $25M overpaid this season, at least. Next year, DD and Fields will be a good $10M overpaid, collectively. These guys aren't overpaid slightly... it's 30%+.

This isn't "meaningless whining". This team sucks because $5M is riding the bench, $7M can't get off it, $10M is perpetually injured, and $6.5M can't play more than 25 minutes a game, and next year, $9M can't hit a three ball or pass.

Also, I hope no one currently bitching about Calderon's deal plans to be relieved in the offseason. All that money is gone and invested in another guy who didn't deserve the contract-- Derozan. It's just an endless cycle of garbage. A smart GM saves the capspace if confronted with a Derozan or nothing proposition, gets a league average SG at the minimum (like, gee, Alan Anderson), and waits for teams to dump picks and contracts on them. When you're a very bad team, it is always better to take a shot at two guys you don't know, instead of committing to the devil who keeps pounding you in the butt.
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Post#78 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 2:45 pm by Scase

416 wrote:
Scase wrote:Are you effing kidding me?

It's called VALUE. If a player is paid more than he's worth that's bad VALUE. Thus making him a hindrance instead of an asset. And if said hindrance isn't working out his VALUE is lower due to being overpaid and harder to TRADE. Thus shackling the team with that bad VALUE contract that no one wants. Having an entire team of these causes a team to become what the raps are. A crappy team going nowhere fast.

How you have made it to the age you have and not learned the value of a dollar is beyond me.


I know you can handle it, so going to be a devils advocate here.

Getting good value players is a good rule of thumb, but not the golden measuring stick that most make it out to be.

If that was true, you can compose a whole team with serviceable players on rookie contracts; it'll meet the criteria of players > value of contract. However this team won't probably go anywhere.

Some finance savvy folks will say that if you have assets > book value, then you can flip them for better assets. That is entirely true given that the market is liquid. However the NBA is not like the stock market where you can flip assets whenever you choose to. Illiquidity is a cost, and thus a premium has to be charged on that.

Then there is gaming. This really @#$%s up the fair value of assets. Colangelo trying to block a Nash trade to NY by offering Landry a bloated contract will mess up his value because the contract value isn't tied directly to the value of the asset (the player) anymore. This is one example where there are other factors than intrinsic value of the player dictating the value of the contract.

Also on the point of intrinsic value, I agree that this is the "truest" way to equate contract value with the player/asset. However without a crystal ball/hindsight, valuation in this manner will most likely be off. This is because intrinsic value tries to capture both the current value of the asset as well as the future value of the asset. Since it is too difficult to predict what the future value of any player is going to be, in practice, there is a mismatch between player and contract value.

The only alternative that is left then is comparative value. This method is using similar assets to value your own. The downside here is that, unless you are comparing your assets with another that is accurately valued, player/contract value will be misaligned once again.

And the list goes on to as why contracts are valued improperly. A GM's job on the line, injuries, cognitive biases, etc all play into this.

This is why it is difficult to offer contracts based on wins/dollar, in a vacuum it works, in practicality it only serves as a guideline at best.

Very good post.

But, I'm not talking about EXACT values for player contracts. As you stated there are many outlying factors that go into determining what a contact ends up being, the Fields one for instance had virtually nothing to do with his play at all and 90% about cock blocking the Knicks. The issue being, is that means his contract only has value to US. No other team (hilariously enough especially not the Knicks) is going to look at his contract and think "Well the value is bloated due to the Nash shenanigans let's pick him up anyways." quite the opposite actually.

Fields' contract is very bad value, the reasons are irrelevant after the t's have been crossed and the i's dotted. The fact remains that a player with his skillset and achieving the numbers he has can be acquired for roughly half the money, which becomes more apparent when you do as you suggested and gauge value by comparing contracts to players with similar numbers/impact.

As for predicting future performance and gauging that into the value of a contract, yes it can be a gamble but many times it's not enough to drastically affect the overarching value of the contract. Generally after a player has been in the league for 5 years you can pretty much assume that's the type of player they are, while there are exceptions they are exactly that, exceptions. Except for one type of contract......rookie extensions. This also seems to be an area of weakness for BC in particular too. Case in point Bargs and DD's contract extensions, both bloated with an unlikely chance of them ever becoming worthwhile let alone valued assets.

I'm not suggesting we go straight moneyball on this because, quite frankly in the NBA that simply doesn't work. It's a superstar dominated league where one player can affect the entire outcome of a team. But when constantly saddling a team with numerous Fields "like" contracts the ability to acquire one of said superstars is drastically lower.


As for all the people clamoring "WELL TELL ME WHICH FA WE COULD HAVE SIGNED HUH GENIUS NONE OF THEM WANNA COME HERE!". Hate to break it to you guys but having valued contracts and cap space aren't JUST for FA signings, package numerous valued contracts and get a single much better player in return. Now you tell me how many of THOSE we would have been able to do with all those terrible contracts over the years we've been subjected to.
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Post#79 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 2:53 pm by Tofubeque

I can't believe how many people here are doubting the worth of "value" and completely missing the point.

Do you want this team to get better, in any way? Here are our options: we can trade players for draft picks and tank, trade players for established talent, or trade players along with our own future picks for expirings and go after free agents. When you're a capped-out team, that's all there is for you to do.

Having overpaid players makes every single one of those options harder. Every trade we try to complete, we'll have to make greater sacrifices and get less in return, because we're putting other teams at the disadvantage of paying for our mediocre talent. It's common sense.

The only way you wouldn't be offended by our awful contracts is if you think Derozan, Ross and Valanciunas are all going to become all-stars, so it's all good. In which case you're an idiot, and even then, surrounding them with overpaid role players would hinder our ability to contend.
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Post#80 Re: Why do we care so much about the money?
Tue Jan 8, 2013 7:14 pm by ruckus

Tofubeque wrote:I can't believe how many people here are doubting the worth of "value" and completely missing the point.

Do you want this team to get better, in any way? Here are our options: we can trade players for draft picks and tank, trade players for established talent, or trade players along with our own future picks for expirings and go after free agents. When you're a capped-out team, that's all there is for you to do.

Having overpaid players makes every single one of those options harder. Every trade we try to complete, we'll have to make greater sacrifices and get less in return, because we're putting other teams at the disadvantage of paying for our mediocre talent. It's common sense.

The only way you wouldn't be offended by our awful contracts is if you think Derozan, Ross and Valanciunas are all going to become all-stars, so it's all good. In which case you're an idiot, and even then, surrounding them with overpaid role players would hinder our ability to contend.


I have to ask, who are our awful contracts? Which of our players are so grossly overpaid that we have to give more to get less? Is Derozan (after this season) really that overpaid? As avid fans, we know his true deficiencies, but, on paper, isn't a 18-20ppg, 4-5 rebound, 2-3 assists per game shooting guard worth at least 10 mil? Same goes for Bargs. I can't stand his game but, around the league, a 20 ppg, 5 RPG pf would probably cost you around 10 mil on the open market.


Maybe I'm in the wrong here but, cap space and team direction are not intrinsically linked. Yes, cap space is a tool but, really when your payroll is in the bottom sixth of the league, how much are your bad contracts really hampering you?

I said it in an earlier post, bc's overall vision is flawed. His cap management is not.



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