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OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA his

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Post#201 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:57 pm by ATLTimekeeper

MikeM wrote:"Character issues" drives me up the wall.

Guy commits crime. Punches teammates. Beats girlfriend. Character issues.

Guy doesn't know what he's doing on the court. Doesn't know opponents. Character issues.

Wut


Seems like you're really struggling with the concept of character evaluation. It's not exclusive to the Raptors.
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Post#202 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:01 pm by MikeM

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
MikeM wrote:"Character issues" drives me up the wall.

Guy commits crime. Punches teammates. Beats girlfriend. Character issues.

Guy doesn't know what he's doing on the court. Doesn't know opponents. Character issues.

Wut


Seems like you're really struggling with the concept of character evaluation. It's not exclusive to the Raptors.


We got a thread right above this talking about Josh Smith to TO.

Just got suspended for getting kicked out of practice.

Character issues.
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Post#203 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:16 pm by tracey_nice

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
MikeM wrote:"Character issues" drives me up the wall.

Guy commits crime. Punches teammates. Beats girlfriend. Character issues.

Guy doesn't know what he's doing on the court. Doesn't know opponents. Character issues.

Wut


Seems like you're really struggling with the concept of character evaluation. It's not exclusive to the Raptors.


EXCLUSIVE TO PERPETUAL LOTTERY TEAMS.
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Post#204 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:05 am by hillbilly hare

SDM wrote:I'm starting to think "character issues" is code for "uppity".


To be honest I did sense at least some racist stereotyping in the Drummond red flag rumors. A huge black kid (a bit like the character in the Green Mile movie) maybe seems a bit slow, lethargic, unable to learn basic plays. At least nobody came out and said dumb and lazy. A real shame, and a real fail, on the part of GMs who bought into the rumors without verifying one way or the other. If Drummond's own coach says he's a good kid and quick learner, why go out of your way to think up and worry about alleged rumors?
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Post#205 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:01 am by BirdmanPresents

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Post#206 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:18 pm by ansoncarter

what if they changed it from "character issues" to "won't reach potential"

whether they're dumb green mile people, or lazy charlie v people, you can't pretend it doesn't exist. Stromile swift, tyrus thomas. Character issues aren't some minor thing. I mean "won't reach potential" isn't some minor thing. And it still might not be with draymond

ignore it and you might get lucky, or you might end up with Mike Olowakandi instead of Vince Carter. Or darko instead of bosh. Or kwame and Eddy Curry instead of pau gasol

I even remember Eddy Curry's draft special, when the cameras got to his house he was sitting on the couch playing xbox with a bag of potato chips beside him
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Post#207 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:31 pm by tracey_nice

ansoncarter wrote:ignore it and you might get lucky, or you might end up with Mike Olowakandi instead of Vince Carter. Or darko instead of bosh. Or kwame and Eddy Curry instead of pau gasol


none of those players are anything alike (skill-wise or mentally/physically) :/
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Post#208 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:39 pm by tracey_nice

it's like last night, watching Jrue Holiday destroy the raptors. i couldn't stop thinking in Simmons-esque terms like "wow, Holiday has so much poise". but, it's a stupid thing to think about. because Jeff Teague has poise, too. however, he just doesn't have elite talent and can't make certain plays skill-wise.

so, like always, take talent and figure the rest out later. bad teams don't have the luxury of overlooking talent. athletic wings are a dime-a-dozen.
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Post#209 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:59 pm by Raps in 4

ansoncarter wrote:what if they changed it from "character issues" to "won't reach potential"

whether they're dumb green mile people, or lazy charlie v people, you can't pretend it doesn't exist. Stromile swift, tyrus thomas. Character issues aren't some minor thing. I mean "won't reach potential" isn't some minor thing. And it still might not be with draymond

ignore it and you might get lucky, or you might end up with Mike Olowakandi instead of Vince Carter. Or darko instead of bosh. Or kwame and Eddy Curry instead of pau gasol

I even remember Eddy Curry's draft special, when the cameras got to his house he was sitting on the couch playing xbox with a bag of potato chips beside him


You take that kind of risk at #8.
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Post#210 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:13 pm by ansoncarter

tracey_nice wrote:
ansoncarter wrote:ignore it and you might get lucky, or you might end up with Mike Olowakandi instead of Vince Carter. Or darko instead of bosh. Or kwame and Eddy Curry instead of pau gasol


none of those players are anything alike (skill-wise or mentally/physically) :/

I know. Some had "won't reach potential" issues. And didn't reach their potential.

olowakandi didn't like basketball, charlie v was lazy, stromile and tyrus were morons, Darko was a weirdo who wants to throw all the daughters of the members of parliament off the parliament building, or whatever he said, Kwame was a baby in a grown man's body and Eddy Curry liked to play xbox and eat potato chips

@Ussjtrunks, I agree a team like the raptors should have taken him. Especially in that draft. Just talking about "won't reach potential" issues in general. Draymond is looking good so people are acting like "won't reach potential" issues aren't a big deal. Of all the players over the years predicted to have those issues, like 90% ended up underwhelming
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Post#211 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:27 am by hillbilly hare

You could just as easily say that 90% of ALL players never realize their "perceived" full potential at the time they come into the league.

The point being, that as a GM, with all possible resources at your disposal, why leave it to chance? There will always be an element of chance, sure, but you can reduce that as much as possible thru a well developed pre-draft assessment process. Some teams do it a lot better than others, which means that it can be done. If it takes hiring those talent evaluators away from other teams, then so be it. And this is even more important for a team like the Raptors, who has trouble signing free agents.

In a sense, Colangelo was "right" not to pick Drummond, because our GM hadn't done his homework before the draft. It would've meant drafting Drummond "blind". But the question then becomes, why didn't Colangelo get up off his arse and do the job that he gets paid very well to do? That is the huge failure on his part. And should be the last straw for all the mistakes he's made as our GM.

This draft puts Colangelo in Babcock Territory, when the latter passed on drafting Andrew Bynum. Like Babock, Colangel should be fired ASAP, as in tomorrow. Then we can get on with the rebuild, which will never happen while he's here to screw things up.
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Post#212 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:51 am by fredericklove

JN wrote:Its amusing how the anti-Drummond narrative has changed from he sucked to "red flags". The Anti-Drummond camp is still claiming victory because they now present any pro-Drummond fan as being ignorant, lacking knowledge and stupid to want a player with these mysterious "red flags".

Those that are claiming "red flags" and saying its beyond just motor, probably are not NCAA fans. The red flags are not a mystery if you followed the Big East last year. He had many on the court related red flags. Its more than motor (which may be the only thing a casual fan knows) Basically it can all be summed up as - "We are not sure if Drummond actually likes playing basketball at an elite level". Inconsistent motor, no concept of team offence fundamentals, no attempt to get involved in any screens / picks, bad practice habits. If you talked to his coaches at UConn the feedback was probably not glowing from those perspectives.

For example, last year, two days before the UConn game against Seton Hall, a reporter asked Drummond how he was going to handle Herb Pope. Pope, a senior, was averaging about 20-10 for the Hall. Drummond had no clue who Pope even was. It's clear the guy was not that prepared. He just liked to go on the court and play -- but being a pro is more than that.

But the coaches would have also said he is a great kid who has interests outside of the game of basketball that most kids don't. Never had any off the court issues at UConn. Not a douche. Decided to get a loan for his academics instead of letting Calhoun take away a scholarship from a player in typical Calhoun fashion.

That is a tonne of red flags. As I said - no mystery. And then you watched and saw when the motor was on -- he had periods against Syracuse against Fab Melo that he was amazing -- he was Dwight Howard and Melo was basically Aaron Gray. You watched the game and you could tell the touch and atleticism was off the charts for such a strong kid. The question was -- will he mature? Let's remember the kid entered the defending NCAA champion at 17 years old -- a team that had weak veteran character and coaching uncertainty.

Look at it this way - the team had maturity questions about a 17 year old kid who is not a douchebag, and yet BC continues to build around a 27 year old who has the same "Does he actually like playing basketball at an elite level" issues. Awesome.

He was clearly a #1 or #2 type talent. But given the maturity issues, it did not make sense to take that much of a risk in the top three picks. But as you move down the draft the tolerance to take risk on special talent has to increase. I was not in favour of taking Drummond if we had a top three pick. But at #8 - absolutely. Its silly not to consider seriously take that risk if the red flags are not douche bag related.

Basically, the red flags are not some giant mystery to people who followed college basketball. They may be a mystery to those who didn't. And you are not an idiot for taklng someone with many basketball related red flags, if you weigh the risk against draft position and available players at #8.


+1

JN basically said what a true NCAA follower would say. This is the kind of post from a guy who actually paid attention on Drummond and uconn team on a regular basis last year, like myself as well. As great as Drummond is playing right now, no one knew he would play this solid in the NBA level this quickly. We all know the whole uconn thing was a negative environment for the young talented group but all the on court individual effort was pretty alarming last year. His learning curve/fundamentals were so subpar so well behind that scouts and teams fear him that much despite being an immense talent. All 8 teams passed on him for that same legit reason.

Right now he's the type of prospect who defies all odds and plays like he's supposed to play. What I can't stand is seeing posters here acting like smart pansy saying teams are so dumb for passing on him or his mental prematurity is wrong preception like I told you so, or his talent is too good who cares about the red flag risk. I can understand the Ross/Drummond pick debate at 8th pick but don't understand posters acting like they know it all as if they actually followed him from college day 1, monitored his development and already so confident knowing his red flag won't be an issue in the pro level.
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Post#213 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:22 am by hillbilly hare

fredericklove wrote:
JN wrote:Its amusing how the anti-Drummond narrative has changed from he sucked to "red flags". The Anti-Drummond camp is still claiming victory because they now present any pro-Drummond fan as being ignorant, lacking knowledge and stupid to want a player with these mysterious "red flags".

Those that are claiming "red flags" and saying its beyond just motor, probably are not NCAA fans. The red flags are not a mystery if you followed the Big East last year. He had many on the court related red flags. Its more than motor (which may be the only thing a casual fan knows) Basically it can all be summed up as - "We are not sure if Drummond actually likes playing basketball at an elite level". Inconsistent motor, no concept of team offence fundamentals, no attempt to get involved in any screens / picks, bad practice habits. If you talked to his coaches at UConn the feedback was probably not glowing from those perspectives.

For example, last year, two days before the UConn game against Seton Hall, a reporter asked Drummond how he was going to handle Herb Pope. Pope, a senior, was averaging about 20-10 for the Hall. Drummond had no clue who Pope even was. It's clear the guy was not that prepared. He just liked to go on the court and play -- but being a pro is more than that.

But the coaches would have also said he is a great kid who has interests outside of the game of basketball that most kids don't. Never had any off the court issues at UConn. Not a douche. Decided to get a loan for his academics instead of letting Calhoun take away a scholarship from a player in typical Calhoun fashion.

That is a tonne of red flags. As I said - no mystery. And then you watched and saw when the motor was on -- he had periods against Syracuse against Fab Melo that he was amazing -- he was Dwight Howard and Melo was basically Aaron Gray. You watched the game and you could tell the touch and atleticism was off the charts for such a strong kid. The question was -- will he mature? Let's remember the kid entered the defending NCAA champion at 17 years old -- a team that had weak veteran character and coaching uncertainty.

Look at it this way - the team had maturity questions about a 17 year old kid who is not a douchebag, and yet BC continues to build around a 27 year old who has the same "Does he actually like playing basketball at an elite level" issues. Awesome.

He was clearly a #1 or #2 type talent. But given the maturity issues, it did not make sense to take that much of a risk in the top three picks. But as you move down the draft the tolerance to take risk on special talent has to increase. I was not in favour of taking Drummond if we had a top three pick. But at #8 - absolutely. Its silly not to consider seriously take that risk if the red flags are not douche bag related.

Basically, the red flags are not some giant mystery to people who followed college basketball. They may be a mystery to those who didn't. And you are not an idiot for taklng someone with many basketball related red flags, if you weigh the risk against draft position and available players at #8.


+1

JN basically said what a true NCAA follower would say. This is the kind of post from a guy who actually paid attention on Drummond and uconn team on a regular basis last year, like myself as well. As great as Drummond is playing right now, no one knew he would play this solid in the NBA level this quickly. We all know the whole uconn thing was a negative environment for the young talented group but all the on court individual effort was pretty alarming last year. His learning curve/fundamentals were so subpar so well behind that scouts and teams fear him that much despite being an immense talent. All 8 teams passed on him for that same legit reason.

Right now he's the type of prospect who defies all odds and plays like he's supposed to play. What I can't stand is seeing posters here acting like smart pansy saying teams are so dumb for passing on him or his mental prematurity is wrong preception like I told you so, or his talent is too good who cares about the red flag risk. I can understand the Ross/Drummond pick debate at 8th pick but don't understand posters acting like they know it all as if they actually followed him from college day 1, monitored his development and already so confident knowing his red flag won't be an issue in the pro level.


Just to reiterate: our GM passed on him without even bringing him in for an interview and a private workout. Both of which would've been a good starting point to see if the alleged red flags were baseless or not. Drummond's coach, who saw the guy every day, said he was a great kid who learned quickly. That's two of the red flags right there. Sure, he might've just been mouthing the usual good things about one of his players. But that should have at least piqued a GM's interest, given Drummond's immense potential and the fact that the only thing holding him back from being the number 2 prospect in the draft. I can understand the GMs who had him in for a workout and decided against picking him, e.g. West, but to just rule him out a priori is really poor work by our GM.

Things that are difficult to stand here are posters/fans who say that ANY teenage kid or 20-21 year old is either a "character" guy or a "head case", or has a "good work ethic" or is "lazy", and so on. What the hell do we know? We can go on the kid's coach's comments, though they might be biased, or the guy's teammates (same problem), or anonymous scouts writing on the net. And we can go on what we see in the kid's college games. Which often isn't much to go on. Why would Ross be considered a "plus" kind of guy and Drummond a "risk"? Because Ross "looked like" he was working hard in college, and Drummond wasn't? People can twist things any way to suit them. Ross came from a school that played in the NIT and not the NCAAs, and in some cases that's been held against a guy. Like it was with Lillard, too. If you like the guy, though, you can point to other guys who have starred in the NBA after coming from small schools.

Bottom line with Drummond is he was the perfect guy you had to do extra homework on. Just like the Lakers did with Andrew Bynum. You do your work and reduce the unknowns and potential risks as much as you can, then draft the guy or not. Our GM didn't. Joe Dumars did.
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Post#214 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:38 pm by Neutral 123

fredericklove wrote:
JN wrote:Its amusing how the anti-Drummond narrative has changed from he sucked to "red flags". The Anti-Drummond camp is still claiming victory because they now present any pro-Drummond fan as being ignorant, lacking knowledge and stupid to want a player with these mysterious "red flags".

Those that are claiming "red flags" and saying its beyond just motor, probably are not NCAA fans. The red flags are not a mystery if you followed the Big East last year. He had many on the court related red flags. Its more than motor (which may be the only thing a casual fan knows) Basically it can all be summed up as - "We are not sure if Drummond actually likes playing basketball at an elite level". Inconsistent motor, no concept of team offence fundamentals, no attempt to get involved in any screens / picks, bad practice habits. If you talked to his coaches at UConn the feedback was probably not glowing from those perspectives.

For example, last year, two days before the UConn game against Seton Hall, a reporter asked Drummond how he was going to handle Herb Pope. Pope, a senior, was averaging about 20-10 for the Hall. Drummond had no clue who Pope even was. It's clear the guy was not that prepared. He just liked to go on the court and play -- but being a pro is more than that.

But the coaches would have also said he is a great kid who has interests outside of the game of basketball that most kids don't. Never had any off the court issues at UConn. Not a douche. Decided to get a loan for his academics instead of letting Calhoun take away a scholarship from a player in typical Calhoun fashion.

That is a tonne of red flags. As I said - no mystery. And then you watched and saw when the motor was on -- he had periods against Syracuse against Fab Melo that he was amazing -- he was Dwight Howard and Melo was basically Aaron Gray. You watched the game and you could tell the touch and atleticism was off the charts for such a strong kid. The question was -- will he mature? Let's remember the kid entered the defending NCAA champion at 17 years old -- a team that had weak veteran character and coaching uncertainty.

Look at it this way - the team had maturity questions about a 17 year old kid who is not a douchebag, and yet BC continues to build around a 27 year old who has the same "Does he actually like playing basketball at an elite level" issues. Awesome.

He was clearly a #1 or #2 type talent. But given the maturity issues, it did not make sense to take that much of a risk in the top three picks. But as you move down the draft the tolerance to take risk on special talent has to increase. I was not in favour of taking Drummond if we had a top three pick. But at #8 - absolutely. Its silly not to consider seriously take that risk if the red flags are not douche bag related.

Basically, the red flags are not some giant mystery to people who followed college basketball. They may be a mystery to those who didn't. And you are not an idiot for taklng someone with many basketball related red flags, if you weigh the risk against draft position and available players at #8.


+1

JN basically said what a true NCAA follower would say. This is the kind of post from a guy who actually paid attention on Drummond and uconn team on a regular basis last year, like myself as well. As great as Drummond is playing right now, no one knew he would play this solid in the NBA level this quickly. We all know the whole uconn thing was a negative environment for the young talented group but all the on court individual effort was pretty alarming last year. His learning curve/fundamentals were so subpar so well behind that scouts and teams fear him that much despite being an immense talent. All 8 teams passed on him for that same legit reason.

Right now he's the type of prospect who defies all odds and plays like he's supposed to play. What I can't stand is seeing posters here acting like smart pansy saying teams are so dumb for passing on him or his mental prematurity is wrong preception like I told you so, or his talent is too good who cares about the red flag risk. I can understand the Ross/Drummond pick debate at 8th pick but don't understand posters acting like they know it all as if they actually followed him from college day 1, monitored his development and already so confident knowing his red flag won't be an issue in the pro level.

WTH, your post isn't consistent with JN's. He's saying BC should have known better, and that anyone who was really paying attention SHOULD have known better.
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Post#215 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:03 pm by hokageinfamus

Bynum was projected to go 30th, never played played a full season of high school ball. Drummond as a high school player >>>> Bynum
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Post#216 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:48 pm by Woodsanity

The Raptors really messed up with not picking Drummond. He is already a beastly defensive anchor and averages
13.2/13.4/3 per 36.... This guy is going to be a super stud in a weak Center league and he is only 19!

I feel sorry for you guys. Your GM is completely clueless and the FO just doesn't care.
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Post#217 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:01 pm by Greg Stink

hokageinfamus wrote:Bynum was projected to go 30th, never played played a full season of high school ball. Drummond as a high school player >>>> Bynum

There was little info on Bynum, the footage I saw looked poor and most kids were just talking about his myspace(lol) page. The Lakers made him a promise so early that nobody else got a feel for him. Would have been a great big-swing pick for us, a team with two choices in a draft deep with mediocre talent and lacking a 5, to be sure. It was thrown out there by some of us. Harry Palmer got that one right, bloviatin' and speculatin'.
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Post#218 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:30 pm by fredericklove

Neutral 123 wrote:WTH, your post isn't consistent with JN's. He's saying BC should have known better, and that anyone who was really paying attention SHOULD have known better.


You again. Reread his post and my post again before you post something like that.
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Post#219 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:33 pm by Neutral 123

fredericklove wrote:
Neutral 123 wrote:WTH, your post isn't consistent with JN's. He's saying BC should have known better, and that anyone who was really paying attention SHOULD have known better.


You again. Reread his post and my post again before you post something like that.

Ah you're the Parker guy. Makes sense now.
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Post#220 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:56 pm by fredericklove

Neutral 123 wrote:
fredericklove wrote:
Neutral 123 wrote:WTH, your post isn't consistent with JN's. He's saying BC should have known better, and that anyone who was really paying attention SHOULD have known better.


You again. Reread his post and my post again before you post something like that.

Ah you're the Parker guy. Makes sense now.


Yeah the guy who watches Parker and Wiggins play live and watches lots of Drummond last year and know how they play. Thats something you rarely do cos you admitted you didnt watch two out of those 3 played. Now leave parker and wiggins issue aside since you mentioned it cos you've ruined that thread already so me or undefeated just gave up and save our breath on someone else.

Now just go back to the topic. What don't you understand? JN was in a lot of draft thread last year so I know where he's going at. Drummond's issue was no big mystery if those that follow him in college would know, teams passed on him for that reason. Anyone can argue about our pick when Drummond drops to us. I even said I understand the Ross vs. Drummond pick, upside at 8th that I understand but ppl that know about Drummond from college days know how alarming his issue was. JN said casual fans think its just motor issue but its not. So what did I even say corresponding to JN that made you go WTH to my post?
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