OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA his

[daleface]

If this was actually true, then the seven GMs who passed on him after Davis went first are all morons. Are you going to tell me that all seven of those GMs are morons? You'd be a better GM than all of them?

It was not obvious that he would be an impact player.

Well you couldn't be any worse than them, I mean they're the GM's of the worst teams in the NBA. Teams that have been either bottom dwellers or mediocre teams for years (excluding maybe Portland). These GMs haven't been doing a great job so....

Well most people didn't think Drummond was going to be an impact player right away but most knew his potential could be an impact player and more further down the road.

Fact is though we don't know what goes through these GM's minds. Are they drafting out of need, recommendation from their scouting staff, going by stats, etc. Whatever the case is, some of them made a mistake in not picking him.

[Greg Stink]

If this was actually true, then the seven GMs who passed on him after Davis went first are all morons. Are you going to tell me that all seven of those GMs are morons? You'd be a better GM than all of them?

It was not obvious that he would be an impact player.

Well you couldn't be any worse than them, I mean they're the GM's of the worst teams in the NBA. Teams that have been either bottom dwellers or mediocre teams for years (excluding maybe Portland). These GMs haven't been doing a great job so....

Well most people didn't think Drummond was going to be an impact player right away but most knew his potential could be an impact player and more further down the road.

Fact is though we don't know what goes through these GM's minds. Are they drafting out of need, recommendation from their scouting staff, going by stats, etc. Whatever the case is, some of them made a mistake in not picking him.

If you actually watched UCONN, you could see that the team was an utter mess with an absentee coach and idiotic Kemba-wannabe PG in Napier, who abandoned his chip game for a lousy Kemba impression, and what Drummond could take to the next level. Advanced stats did exist which supported him. Nobody could score on him in the post.

Some GMs are just too close to the situation and so fearful of repeating past mistakes to see what they're looking at. Some civilians put up better draft rankings than the draft results every year. It's not GMs never knowing Drummond would be special, it's them kicking themselves because they DID know better until they over-thought things.

Every year, bad GMs get caught up in the herd and draft the past. It was so easy to assume that a big guy would not work out and believe that guards are the wave of the future, so Drummond got passed on. GMs still haven't learned the no-position tweener lesson yet, that they dominate a different game in college but usually don't matter on the NBA, but at least Robinson didn't go #2 as he would have in years past. You can bet that for the next few years, any tweener slips and athletic bigs go higher. Until, of course, a couple bigs bust again and a tweener drafted later provides good value.

Jordan could point to MKG's role in their chip and say, 'see'? Beal, Waiters, Lillard represented the perimeter revolution. Lillard was a home run, but looking back, do they take Drummond? They had a franchise guy in LmA and Lillard was ready, so I can't blame them. Petrie could always say point to the college dominance of T-Rob and not take any blame from the public- and in the Kings' obviously tenuous position, he couldn't afford a project. GSW thought they were a SF away, assuming Bogut came back on time, and Barnes was supposed to be ready. Physically, he was, and he exploited the arcane pre-draft combine exercises- also, he was a former prodigy who could be sold as a slippee who filled a need.

Bryan Colangelo was the first guy to make a true WTF mistake. We had Jonas, a guy who had never played a game? Well, we also had Demar, a guy who was (correctly) thought to be part of the plan no matter what. Drummond and Jonas would have at least as good of a chance of effectively playing together as Ross and Demar, and Drummond/Jonas would always have a higher trade value. Waaaay higher. Drummond would have been given chance after chance if he stunk, now he's untouchable. Jonas is a fine prospect who could net a big haul via trade.

Nash? Please. Fields was part of the stupid $66M Nash plan, to sign the same length of contract, and Ross was/is a twig, nowhere near ready for big minutes as he claimed, and BC would be drafting a bench shooter over Drummond, who was physically ready and looked to be able to contribute on defense sooner rather than later. Ridiculous. Bryan Colangelo had no excuse for making such a, yes, obvious mistake. In ruling out Drummond, not just passing on him, he followed the herd and poor evaluators, on his payroll, like a terrible GM. It wasn't even up in the air, it was between Ross and Rivers, a bad basketball player. Stefanski gets a cookie for not choosing the non-player.

GTFO, Colangelo.

[sanity]

If this was actually true, then the seven GMs who passed on him after Davis went first are all morons. Are you going to tell me that all seven of those GMs are morons? You'd be a better GM than all of them?

It was not obvious that he would be an impact player.

Well you couldn't be any worse than them, I mean they're the GM's of the worst teams in the NBA. Teams that have been either bottom dwellers or mediocre teams for years (excluding maybe Portland). These GMs haven't been doing a great job so....

Well most people didn't think Drummond was going to be an impact player right away but most knew his potential could be an impact player and more further down the road.

Fact is though we don't know what goes through these GM's minds. Are they drafting out of need, recommendation from their scouting staff, going by stats, etc. Whatever the case is, some of them made a mistake in not picking him.

If you actually watched UCONN, you could see that the team was an utter mess with an absentee coach and idiotic Kemba-wannabe PG in Napier, who abandoned his chip game for a lousy Kemba impression, and what Drummond could take to the next level. Advanced stats did exist which supported him. Nobody could score on him in the post.

Some GMs are just too close to the situation and so fearful of repeating past mistakes to see what they're looking at. Some civilians put up better draft rankings than the draft results every year. It's not GMs never knowing Drummond would be special, it's them kicking themselves because they DID know better until they over-thought things.

Every year, bad GMs get caught up in the herd and draft the past. It was so easy to assume that a big guy would not work out and believe that guards are the wave of the future, so Drummond got passed on. GMs still haven't learned the no-position tweener lesson yet, that they dominate a different game in college but usually don't matter on the NBA, but at least Robinson didn't go #2 as he would have in years past. You can bet that for the next few years, any tweener slips and athletic bigs go higher. Until, of course, a couple bigs bust again and a tweener drafted later provides good value.

Jordan could point to MKG's role in their chip and say, 'see'? Beal, Waiters, Lillard represented the perimeter revolution. Lillard was a home run, but looking back, do they take Drummond? They had a franchise guy in LmA and Lillard was ready, so I can't blame them. Petrie could always say point to the college dominance of T-Rob and not take any blame from the public- and in the Kings' obviously tenuous position, he couldn't afford a project. GSW thought they were a SF away, assuming Bogut came back on time, and Barnes was supposed to be ready. Physically, he was, and he exploited the arcane pre-draft combine exercises- also, he was a former prodigy who could be sold as a slippee who filled a need.

Bryan Colangelo was the first guy to make a true WTF mistake. We had Jonas, a guy who had never played a game? Well, we also had Demar, a guy who was (correctly) thought to be part of the plan no matter what. Drummond and Jonas would have at least as good of a chance of effectively playing together as Ross and Demar, and Drummond/Jonas would always have a higher trade value. Waaaay higher. Drummond would have been given chance after chance if he stunk, now he's untouchable. Jonas is a fine prospect who could net a big haul via trade.

Nash? Please. Fields was part of the stupid $66M Nash plan, to sign the same length of contract, and Ross was/is a twig, nowhere near ready for big minutes as he claimed, and BC would be drafting a bench shooter over Drummond, who was physically ready and looked to be able to contribute on defense sooner rather than later. Ridiculous. Bryan Colangelo had no excuse for making such a, yes, obvious mistake. In ruling out Drummond, not just passing on him, he followed the herd and poor evaluators, on his payroll, like a terrible GM. It wasn't even up in the air, it was between Ross and Rivers, a bad basketball player. Stefanski gets a cookie for not choosing the non-player.

GTFO, Colangelo.

Great post, +1

[daleface]

^ That's what I'm saying.

Some of these GM's didn't due diligence by checking on Drummond. Rather, they based their decision on..or already had formed their opinion on him without really checking.

And that just shows that these GM's haven't been doing a good job.

[hillbilly hare]

People are still seriously using the retort that "7 GMs passed on Drummond, so there must be something that was wrong with him"?

Two words for these people: Andrew Bynum.

There are dozens of other guys over the decades (passed on, then became stars) but I'll mention Bynum because, like Drummond, he was young, inexperienced, raw and a huge physical specimen. 9 GMs passed on him.

The major fail on Colangelo's part was not putting Drummond on his draft board, but especially it was not interviewing him and working him out privately. If only to check whether the rumors about his apathy and laziness and character issues were real or not.

And for the umpteenth time, it's not about Ross, who looks like a solid player, or about Jonas, or Andrea (who some people have brought into the discussion, god knows why). It's about maximizing trade assets. As I wrote in the off-season, if we'd had both Jonas and Drummond, you could look to package one of them for a star, especially on a team trying to cut payroll. I mentioned Harden, as OKC's biggest position of need is center. A deal based around Jonas or Drummond might've looked pretty good to OKC. Some combo of Jonas and Demar and Ed and a pick. As mentioned in the off-season, we could've gone after a starting C like Asik to bring Drummond (or Jonas) along slowly.

[Scott Carefoot]

^ That's what I'm saying.

Some of these GM's didn't due diligence by checking on Drummond. Rather, they based their decision on..or already had formed their opinion on him without really checking.

And that just shows that these GM's haven't been doing a good job.

You are 100 percent wrong in your assessment that the GMs who passed on Drummond didn't have enough information. I promise you that every GM who passed on Drummond had much, much more information on him than you or any of the people in this thread who don't understand why those teams passed on him.

Did any of you talk to his high school and college coaches? Did any of you interview him personally? Most of us like to think we wouldn't make the mistakes these GMs made on Drummond, but you don't have the information they had that influenced that decision.

Let's look at the 2010 draft. If the players were drafted in order based strictly on their natural gifts, talent and potential, DeMarcus Cousins would have been the first overall pick, easily. He might still prove to have the best career out of anyone in that draft, but it's become quite obvious why four teams passed on him.

What about Royce White? You think there weren't fans of some of the teams who didn't draft him that thought their GMs were fools for passing on him? Again, they didn't have all the information.

The Internet has deluded a lot of sports fans into thinking they know just as much, if not more, about the players then the GMs who draft them, sign them or trade for them. The problem with all that extra information that GMs have access to is that it can cause them to overthink things. I suppose that's why David Kahn thought it made sense to draft Wesley Johnson (who was a couple of weeks from turning 23) instead of DeMarcus Cousins.

The people in this thread who believe in their hearts that Drummond was an obvious impact player did not have the information that the seven GMs who passed on him did. I'm sure every one if you is 100 percent positive that you would have ignored all that negative intel and drafted him anyway. You're entitled to believe that, but since none of you will ever be GMs, we'll never know.

The draft is an inexact science. Stop treating it otherwise.

Edited to add: Using Bynum as an example of a player GMs screwed up on isn't looking so hot right now. Again, we don't know the information the GMs that passed had on him. It turns out he's an self-centred a-hole, and it's possible that came out in interviews. If one of us had interviewed him, we might have decided he wasn't worth the risk.

[tracey_nice]

^bynum is still the 2nd best C in the nba (when healthy) and no personality 'red flags' that matters with regards to his productivity (his knee stuff had no effect on his draft position). who cares if he is an a**hole? lol. he came into the NBA as a chubby teenager and worked himself to be an absolute beast. his "work ethic" isn't an issue. stop making stuff up.

ANDRE DRUMMOND TOP 5 DRTG. (Scott Carefoot: "he is the next Saer Sene") LOOL. can't believe you ever got paid to talk about basketball.

[tracey_nice]

The Internet has deluded a lot of sports fans into thinking they know just as much, if not more, about the players then the GMs who draft them, sign them or trade for them. The problem with all that extra information that GMs have access to is that it can cause them to overthink things. I suppose that's why David Kahn thought it made sense to draft Wesley Johnson (who was a couple of weeks from turning 23) instead of DeMarcus Cousins.

so you're saying fans actually have better judgement in these cases than some GM's? But also, "THERES A REASON [X] GM'S PASSED ON [PLAYER]"?

[Scott Carefoot]

^bynum is still the 2nd best C in the nba (when healthy) and no personality 'red flags' that matters with regards to his productivity (his knee stuff had no effect on his draft position). who cares if he is an a**hole? lol. he came into the NBA as a chubby teenager and worked himself to be an absolute beast. his "work ethic" isn't an issue. stop making stuff up.

ANDRE DRUMMOND TOP 5 DRTG. (Scott Carefoot: "he is the next Saer Sene") LOOL. can't believe you ever got paid to talk about basketball.

I didn't get paid to talk about basketball. I did that for fun.

Everyone who has an opinion on anything is right about some things and wrong about others. It's fairly evident I was very wrong about Drummond. I can admit that in my real name without shame, which is more than you can say.

[MikeM]

Comparing Cousins and White. One is just a knucklehead and the other has a serious mental illness.

Also, I love interviewing 18 year olds to determine if they will be good 25 year old pro players. Makes tons of sense.

[daleface]

^ That's what I'm saying.

Some of these GM's didn't due diligence by checking on Drummond. Rather, they based their decision on..or already had formed their opinion on him without really checking.

And that just shows that these GM's haven't been doing a good job.

You are 100 percent wrong in your assessment that the GMs who passed on Drummond didn't have enough information. I promise you that every GM who passed on Drummond had much, much more information on him than you or any of the people in this thread who don't understand why those teams passed on him.

Did any of you talk to his high school and college coaches? Did any of you interview him personally? Most of us like to think we wouldn't make the mistakes these GMs made on Drummond, but you don't have the information they had that influenced that decision.

Let's look at the 2010 draft. If the players were drafted in order based strictly on their natural gifts, talent and potential, DeMarcus Cousins would have been the first overall pick, easily. He might still prove to have the best career out of anyone in that draft, but it's become quite obvious why four teams passed on him.

What about Royce White? You think there weren't fans of some of the teams who didn't draft him that thought their GMs were fools for passing on him? Again, they didn't have all the information.

The Internet has deluded a lot of sports fans into thinking they know just as much, if not more, about the players then the GMs who draft them, sign them or trade for them. The problem with all that extra information that GMs have access to is that it can cause them to overthink things. I suppose that's why David Kahn thought it made sense to draft Wesley Johnson (who was a couple of weeks from turning 23) instead of DeMarcus Cousins.

The people in this thread who believe in their hearts that Drummond was an obvious impact player did not have the information that the seven GMs who passed on him did. I'm sure every one if you is 100 percent positive that you would have ignored all that negative intel and drafted him anyway. You're entitled to believe that, but since none of you will ever be GMs, we'll never know.

The draft is an inexact science. Stop treating it otherwise.

First off, get off your own high horse.

I never stated that I would be a way better GM or person whose perfect at making decisions that GMs are faced with. I have NO delusions where I see myself as a GM.

I simply stated that their mistakes and failures have led them being bad GM's and giving their track record that is a fair assessment.

I didn't say all 7 of them, I said some of them. Some of them like BC, knew that Drummond has huge potential but didn't look into much because he was drafting base on need and what other evaluators have said.

And if you're a team like Raptors who can only get an impact player through the draft. You would think that you would put all your focused on the players that are coming out of it.

[Greg Stink]

The Internet has deluded a lot of sports fans into thinking they know just as much, if not more, about the players then the GMs who draft them, sign them or trade for them.

Said the fan who started a blog, then quit that blog in a cry fit because our GM didn't do what he wanted him to.

The problem with all that extra information that GMs have access to is that it can cause them to overthink things. I suppose that's why David Kahn thought it made sense to draft Wesley Johnson (who was a couple of weeks from turning 23) instead of DeMarcus Cousins.

Hey- you got one right!

[Scott Carefoot]

Also, I love interviewing 18 year olds to determine if they will be good 25 year old pro players. Makes tons of sense.

Are you saying that you wouldn't interview 18-year-old draft prospects and you wouldn't talk to their coaches? Are you saying you would draft players based on the exact same amount of information that fans have?

[sanity]

I think its safe to say Bryan overthinked things when it came to Fields... while doing about 10 shots of tequila

[Scott Carefoot]

Some of them like BC, knew that Drummond has huge potential but didn't look into much because he was drafting base on need and what other evaluators have said.

You have nothing to back up this statement. I know people connected with the organization and the Raptors knew plenty about Drummond, and they didn't like what they saw. They made the wrong decision, but it wasn't based on "not looking into him much".

[tracey_nice]

It's fairly evident I was very wrong about Drummond.

Has Andre Drummond "sapped your will" to evaluate prospects?

[daleface]

Some of them like BC, knew that Drummond has huge potential but didn't look into much because he was drafting base on need and what other evaluators have said.

You have nothing to back up this statement. I know people connected with the organization and the Raptors knew plenty about Drummond, and they didn't like what they saw. They made the wrong decision, but it wasn't based on "not looking into him much".

So BC admitting Drummond was top 3 talent in the draft and yet didn't pick him is nothing to back my statement?

Could you ask the people you know who are connected with the organization on why they pass on Drummond when their own GM stated that he was top 3?

Cause I can't see how a GM can say that a player is top 3 and then didn't draft him because "they didn't like what they saw". If that's the case, they ought to be fired.

[tecumseh18]

I know people connected with the organization and the Raptors knew plenty about Drummond, and they didn't like what they saw. They made the wrong decision, but it wasn't based on "not looking into him much".

And let's keep our eye on the ball here. Obviously we can't turn the clock back. All that can be done is to fire this whole sorry crew of management. And that's what should be done. And will be done.

[daleface]

^bynum is still the 2nd best C in the nba (when healthy) and no personality 'red flags' that matters with regards to his productivity (his knee stuff had no effect on his draft position). who cares if he is an a**hole? lol. he came into the NBA as a chubby teenager and worked himself to be an absolute beast. his "work ethic" isn't an issue. stop making stuff up.

ANDRE DRUMMOND TOP 5 DRTG. (Scott Carefoot: "he is the next Saer Sene") LOOL. can't believe you ever got paid to talk about basketball.

I didn't get paid to talk about basketball. I did that for fun.

Everyone who has an opinion on anything is right about some things and wrong about others. It's fairly evident I was very wrong about Drummond. I can admit that in my real name without shame, which is more than you can say.

And yet when they do voice their opinion, you accuse them of being wannabe GM's and Mr.Know it all. Just because you use your real name doesn't make you an exemption.

[Ripp]

18 year old 6'11 freak athlete with a grown man's body who was also an elite defender in college.

The only major red flag publicized regarding him was his poor free throw shooting.

Kind of amazing that so many GMs choked on what should have been an easy decision.