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OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA his

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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#341 » by Dr Positivity » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:17 pm

In case people missed it, BC said Drummond was an extraordinary talent but they didn't take him because a project big in Valanciunas was on the team

I'm not even that upset about the Ross over Drummond pick, but god that's an idiotic way to draft. Other than Drummond and Valanciunas being a viable long term fit, IMO the only time you draft around a player is when he's a perenn all-star and franchise guy like 06 Bosh, present day Irving, etc. Especially if you're picking 8th in which case any star talent falling that far should be seen as a gift

What bugs me about the Ross pick isn't necessarily that we took him, since I'm a fan. It's that it's pretty obvious BC didn't reach for him because he believed in him as a huge steal or star pick. If he did he'd have done a massive amount of snake oil used car salesman selling of that pick, he wouldn't have extended Demar, etc. Strategically BC was going for a single or a bunt on that pick instead of trying for the home run (Drummond, Lamb, or PJIII), we might fall into a star player with Ross a** backwards, but the strategy was still garbage. Let's put it this way, it looks clear that the Raptors didn't look at this draft and say "This is HUGE for us, this can change the next half decade for us if we make this pick right, let's put an emphasis on nailing this". Was using this draft to turn around the team really our "priority", so to speak? I don't think it was. Because Nash was our priority. This team cared more about using 38 year old Steve Nash to turn around the franchise than a top 10 draft pick in a loaded class, that's horrible...
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#342 » by raptorscam » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:47 pm

The Beasley comparison stems from him being a guy with incredible talent for whom there was widespread doubt that he would make the most of it. Drummond didn't make the effort to dominate in college when he clearly could have and he sufficiently underwhelmed the league to the point that nobody made a significant pitch for the raptors pick when they clearly didn't love anyone on the board. The fact that he is capable of this is news to nobody. The question all along was whether he had the drive to sustain it. So far so good but that question hasn't been answered.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#343 » by tracey_nice » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:21 am

^beasley's 1st minnesota season wasn't even better than his miami seasons though :/ no idea the point yer tryna make, tbh.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#344 » by Neutral 123 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:25 am

DHK wrote:
Phenomenologist wrote:
Hero wrote:Not only does Drummond have amazing potential and has had some monster game this year against quality opponents, he is also very consistent in his play. Every time I look at his performances I can't help but be wowed. At 8th pick we didn't go for the obvious choice and instead reached. Another horrible move for a horrible franchise.


Taking Ross over Drummond was basically Araujo all over again. Except it's even worse this time because I would argue that perennial all-star vs borderline starter is worse than solid starter versus non-NBA player.

Oh, and that quote by BC is obvious spin; there is no way even BC is that dumb. I hate the guy, but if he knew the results, he would have trammed Drummond in a heartbeat, fit/developing two bigs/etc. be damned.

And where is that moron kurtz? Yah, he's already got a man's body, so despite the fact that he's only 19, he won't be improving his body at all going forward. Sigh, why can't people understand gradations?

No..Araujo is a special case..
You're blowing it out of porportion.
Nobody expected Araujo to be picked that high, he was projected in the late 20's or even in the 2nd round in the mock drafts. The pick came out of nowhere. He was stiff, unproven, had no skills outside of a big frame a soft jumper. Ross was actually projected to be picked by the low-mid teens. So it wasnt a far of a reach.

Given the circumstances right now, sure, I'd pick Drummond over Ross 10/10 times however, knowing you had 3 young bigs, Bargnani was a player the Raptors were still high on, of those bigs, two are invested in Amir/Val, one of which have already proven to be solid and another expected to be top tier of C with seasoning; it doesnt make sense to pick him at that time. It doesnt make sense unless youre trying to package a young player + assets for a stud. And there was no one actively trading around a sure thing/stud player ( Harden was not made available since he wasnt even in negotiations for a new contract at that point).

Let's say we did pick Drummond, where does it guarantee success that the growth he's having in Detroit would equate to the growth he would have here? Drummond is progressing nicely since as stubborn as Lawrence Frank is, he gets spot up minutes since after Monroe and Maxiell, there isnt much (CV has been a surprise this season but a complete afterthought going into it), and he's used to minutes to his fullest.
Going into the season, you're look at Drummond behind 4 big men. Where is the minutes allocated to Drummond in that case? Garbage minutes? It's comparable to the Miinny situation where they were picking PGs although their PG line was full or even the Philly situation with Vucevic (somewhat comparable). There is no guarantee he would have sprouted the same way as he is in Detroit. Granted he is still a special talent but the situation he is in is all too perfect for him.

This is all hindsight and absolutely ridiculous. It's perfectly reasonable to be a fan of Drummond. It's also perfectly reasonable to hate BC (I hate him too). It is not perfectly reasonable to go look "Why the hell didnt we pick Drummond look at him flourish and killing everyone, and coming to his own form OMG" and making OT threads about how much of a mistake and how pitiful this franchise is for passing up on him. If you want to follow that trend, might as welll make continuous threads about why we passed on Rondo, Ginobili, Parker, Millsap, Granger, Iggy etc. You can look at a player going into a draft and speculate "oh that kid's got talent, he's going to be something special in the league" however that doesnt equate to the player guaranteed 100% to being someone special and panning out exactly as his potential dictates (ie see Gerald Green for example)

Seriously, why cant Raptor fans (and by quoting you I'm not directly pointing at you) just cheer for the damn players on the team like fans are supposed to instead of making continual complaints about what we could of had, or what we dont have better.

This is a horrible defense. What you are saying is that the team is so dysfunctional that they won't draft or play guys to allow the team to get better. A good franchise makes minutes for Drummond because the scrubs on the team aren't getting the team anywhere. If it means sitting and trading Bargs, Amir, Gray lol, you do it. It's odd. I mean if you actually are a fan of a team, you want to see them win, or AT LEAST provide hope that things will get better. BC has robbed Raps fans of both.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#345 » by Neutral 123 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:30 am

Dr Positivity wrote:In case people missed it, BC said Drummond was an extraordinary talent but they didn't take him because a project big in Valanciunas was on the team

I'm not even that upset about the Ross over Drummond pick, but god that's an idiotic way to draft. Other than Drummond and Valanciunas being a viable long term fit, IMO the only time you draft around a player is when he's a perenn all-star and franchise guy like 06 Bosh, present day Irving, etc. Especially if you're picking 8th in which case any star talent falling that far should be seen as a gift

What bugs me about the Ross pick isn't necessarily that we took him, since I'm a fan. It's that it's pretty obvious BC didn't reach for him because he believed in him as a huge steal or star pick. If he did he'd have done a massive amount of snake oil used car salesman selling of that pick, he wouldn't have extended Demar, etc. Strategically BC was going for a single or a bunt on that pick instead of trying for the home run (Drummond, Lamb, or PJIII), we might fall into a star player with Ross a** backwards, but the strategy was still garbage. Let's put it this way, it looks clear that the Raptors didn't look at this draft and say "This is HUGE for us, this can change the next half decade for us if we make this pick right, let's put an emphasis on nailing this". Was using this draft to turn around the team really our "priority", so to speak? I don't think it was. Because Nash was our priority. This team cared more about using 38 year old Steve Nash to turn around the franchise than a top 10 draft pick in a loaded class, that's horrible...

I disagree with you on Ross' potential as a possible star, but I agree with the rest of your post, and that is what's worse than passing on Drummond. He drafted for fit and a guy who could help right away as a role player. Role player for what? Another 30 win season? The only thing BC has shown himself to be good at is undeservedly keeping himself employed.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#346 » by UcanUwill » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:37 am

Everyone knew Drummond is a monster athlete. But he never showed motivation before, guy wasn't even trying last season. We dont know what would have happened if Toronto selected him. Are we 100% sure he would be just as motivated here? BC was cautious not to pick next Andrea.

Yes, GM should know better, and he probably does, I can't justify the decision, and I sound stupid doing so. But no man can see into the future. No one could have known Drummond would be so much better in the NBA. Gm made his estimations, was off, probably. Again, we cant be 100% sure Drummond would look the same if we picked him, its a butterfly effect. Thats how I feel. And I take Drummond over Ross or Valanciunas of course, but unknown factor still exist.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#347 » by mid-post » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:01 am

UcanUwill wrote:Everyone knew Drummond is a monster athlete. But he never showed motivation before, guy wasn't even trying last season.

This stuff isn't even true, but people keep repeating it for some reason.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#348 » by raptorscam » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:10 am

tracey_nice wrote:^beasley's 1st minnesota season wasn't even better than his miami seasons though :/ no idea the point yer tryna make, tbh.


There were stretches in his first season in Minnesota when he was playing much better than he had in Miami. During those stretches there were people around here who concluded that the reservations people had about him weren't a big deal any more and that BC blew a great opportunity by not acquiring him. Since then the concerns people had about him have been further validated by his inability to keep it up. A guy whose head is the question mark doesn't answer those questions by showing his talent for a few months.

The problem of the big man who doesn't really like playing basketball is as old as basketball itself. I don't begrudge teams for being scared of that based on what he showed in college and I don't think that four months of excellent play proves enough to ridicule a team for not taking him. Especially since some of the greatest waste of talent big men in history have put together longer stretches of strong play than this.

But again, this isn't answerable right now so I guess we will wait and see. He is certainly doing more than I expected to date so I will gladly admit I am wrong if he doesn't plateau or flame out within a year or two.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#349 » by UcanUwill » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:15 am

mid-post wrote:This stuff isn't even true, but people keep repeating it for some reason.


Why its not true? Guy was slacking, thats the only explanation I could think of. Some of his numbers, like defensive rebounding rate, are almost 2x better in the NBA right now. Back to that UCONN elimination game, it was one of the most passive performances from player you could ever expect. And it supposed to be one of the most important games of guys career. Current Drummond never stays in one place, tries to finish everything, he looks excited and motivated.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#350 » by mid-post » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:40 am

UcanUwill wrote:Why its not true? Guy was slacking, thats the only explanation I could think of.

This pretty much says it all though, doesn't it.

I already broke it down in this thread and other places around Realgm. People can't fathom why he didn't just physically dominate and automatically assume it must be because he didn't have "passion" or a good "motor" and all this other nonsense. But when you actually watched him game in and game out, it was obvious his problem was just being comfortable learning offense on the low block while trying to mesh with the team. It didn't stop him from being dominant defensively. He had his moments good and bad, but he wasn't going around dogging it like you're suggesting at all. Never mind the fact that he has no back to the basket game.

The college game is completely different as well, lots of teams were basically just packing the paint, daring UConn to shoot from three and constantly boxing Drummond out with two or three guys (like this)

Image

On top of that, since there's no defensive three seconds and since the spacing in the college game is totally different, his impact was totally nullified in the one way he impacts the game offensively. Right now he's a glorified garbage man, and if it weren't for the spacing the NBA provides, he'd probably still be struggling. But his effort this year is no different than it was last year.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#351 » by hillbilly hare » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:49 am

The college analysis is a bit thin in a lot of cases and it goes both ways: guys who beast in college often have trouble in the league (e.g., just this year, Robinson) and guys who don't beast in college do well and sometimes star in the league. The latter for a lot of reasons, e.g. the old saying that a guy's game is "better suited to the NBA", or the way the guy is coached/used in college, the system the college team uses, and so on. I can see where fans like us often have only that to go on, but obviously GMs have a lot more. I find it hard to believe that while we might say that Drummond looked unmotivated or even lost in college, and thus it was too risky to pick him, GMs on the other hand didn't have a lot more to go on in their assessments. If our GM didn't, then that's a really poor work ethic, as he himself might say. Or, if he did make a thorough assessment on Drummond and found him lacking, then that was truly a failure on Colangelo's part and further defines him as a poor GM. And that's not even the final straw, as he followed that draft failure up with the foolish Steve Nash chase, the non-Bargnani trade (for the best return possible), the Fields signing, and the Demar extension (not the money, but the timing of it). Why is he still here, destroying our team?
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#352 » by Kevin Willis » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:25 pm

I think BC just thought we have a stable of young bigs and we don't need anymore (JV might be as good as Drummond...). Also we have a SG who may leave and we have no-one to fill in his shoes.

Plus Casey likes athletic, defenders with strong work ethic and Ross filled that role (Casey said he heard about his work ethic during the lock out). BC told Casey in behind the draft 'you go that athletic, defensive SG you wanted'. They wanted to make the team mentally tougher and Acy and Ross fit that role well. If Casey wanted to win this year, I wouldn't draft Drummond either.

Maybe it's short-sighted but in a push season Drummond would not develop as they would like and they would still not address perimeter D. At least that's what I think BC thought- it might be wrong but it's understandable.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#353 » by Neutral 123 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:35 pm

Kevin Willis wrote:I think BC just thought we have a stable of young bigs and we don't need anymore (JV might be as good as Drummond...). Also we have a SG who may leave and we have no-one to fill in his shoes.

Plus Casey likes athletic, defenders with strong work ethic and Ross filled that role (Casey said he heard about his work ethic during the lock out). BC told Casey in behind the draft 'you go that athletic, defensive SG you wanted'. They wanted to make the team mentally tougher and Acy and Ross fit that role well. If Casey wanted to win this year, I wouldn't draft Drummond either.

Maybe it's short-sighted but in a push season Drummond would not develop as they would like and they would still not address perimeter D. At least that's what I think BC thought- it might be wrong but it's understandable.

No it makes no sense at all.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#354 » by Phenomenologist » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:44 pm

hillbilly hare wrote:The college analysis is a bit thin in a lot of cases and it goes both ways: guys who beast in college often have trouble in the league (e.g., just this year, Robinson) and guys who don't beast in college do well and sometimes star in the league. The latter for a lot of reasons, e.g. the old saying that a guy's game is "better suited to the NBA", or the way the guy is coached/used in college, the system the college team uses, and so on. I can see where fans like us often have only that to go on, but obviously GMs have a lot more. I find it hard to believe that while we might say that Drummond looked unmotivated or even lost in college, and thus it was too risky to pick him, GMs on the other hand didn't have a lot more to go on in their assessments. If our GM didn't, then that's a really poor work ethic, as he himself might say. Or, if he did make a thorough assessment on Drummond and found him lacking, then that was truly a failure on Colangelo's part and further defines him as a poor GM. And that's not even the final straw, as he followed that draft failure up with the foolish Steve Nash chase, the non-Bargnani trade (for the best return possible), the Fields signing, and the Demar extension (not the money, but the timing of it). Why is he still here, destroying our team?


And here's the thing: the media was projecting Drummond NO WORSE than 8th. I really don't think I saw a single mock that had him lower than top 8. And here's the other thing: the statisticians loved him too. Hollinger had him as the 5th best prospect. Drummond's college stats weren't bad at all. The whole package was there; we ended up getting "lucky' to lose that coin toss. But what did we do? We took a piss on Lady Luck.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#355 » by Phenomenologist » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:45 pm

Kevin Willis wrote:I think BC just thought we have a stable of young bigs and we don't need anymore (JV might be as good as Drummond...). Also we have a SG who may leave and we have no-one to fill in his shoes.

Plus Casey likes athletic, defenders with strong work ethic and Ross filled that role (Casey said he heard about his work ethic during the lock out). BC told Casey in behind the draft 'you go that athletic, defensive SG you wanted'. They wanted to make the team mentally tougher and Acy and Ross fit that role well. If Casey wanted to win this year, I wouldn't draft Drummond either.

Maybe it's short-sighted but in a push season Drummond would not develop as they would like and they would still not address perimeter D. At least that's what I think BC thought- it might be wrong but it's understandable.


I think I disagree with everything you said. LIke everything.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#356 » by Spacing » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:00 pm

Colangelo always drafts by need.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#357 » by Spacing » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:05 pm

Kevin Willis wrote:I think BC just thought we have a stable of young bigs and we don't need anymore (JV might be as good as Drummond...). Also we have a SG who may leave and we have no-one to fill in his shoes.

Plus Casey likes athletic, defenders with strong work ethic and Ross filled that role (Casey said he heard about his work ethic during the lock out). BC told Casey in behind the draft 'you go that athletic, defensive SG you wanted'. They wanted to make the team mentally tougher and Acy and Ross fit that role well. If Casey wanted to win this year, I wouldn't draft Drummond either.

Maybe it's short-sighted but in a push season Drummond would not develop as they would like and they would still not address perimeter D. At least that's what I think BC thought- it might be wrong but it's understandable.


If you watched the draft as I did the NBA Analysts were so befuddled by our pick that they decided to talk about Jonas for 5 minutes while Detroit pondered a no-brainer.

Then you have Ross who was a reach but there was the idea that he may make DD expendable. Well, instead of making him expendable or at least let the market dictate the real value for DD - Colon Jello decided he was going to outbid himself, again, as he did with Bargs.

Also, we reached for Ross @ #8 ... If we really wanted Ross and Lowry I am sure Houston would've done a Drummond+Scrub we packaged (can't remember his name atm) for Lowry+Ross as Houston could have picked for us a bit later.

It was a common knowledge at the time that Lowry and McHale did not see eye to eye so it was obvious they wanted to move him and they found the sucker to overpay.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#358 » by Spacing » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:10 pm

mid-post wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:Everyone knew Drummond is a monster athlete. But he never showed motivation before, guy wasn't even trying last season.

This stuff isn't even true, but people keep repeating it for some reason.


They believe everything the Colon Jello tells them

They are the sheeple of realgm
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#359 » by Neutral 123 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:11 pm

Spacing wrote:
Kevin Willis wrote:I think BC just thought we have a stable of young bigs and we don't need anymore (JV might be as good as Drummond...). Also we have a SG who may leave and we have no-one to fill in his shoes.

Plus Casey likes athletic, defenders with strong work ethic and Ross filled that role (Casey said he heard about his work ethic during the lock out). BC told Casey in behind the draft 'you go that athletic, defensive SG you wanted'. They wanted to make the team mentally tougher and Acy and Ross fit that role well. If Casey wanted to win this year, I wouldn't draft Drummond either.

Maybe it's short-sighted but in a push season Drummond would not develop as they would like and they would still not address perimeter D. At least that's what I think BC thought- it might be wrong but it's understandable.


If you watched the draft as I did the NBA Analysts were so befuddled by our pick that they decided to talk about Jonas for 5 minutes while Detroit pondered a no-brainer.

Then you have Ross who was a reach but there was the idea that he may make DD expendable. Well, instead of making him expendable or at least let the market dictate the real value for DD - Colon Jello decided he was going to outbid himself, again, as he did with Bargs.

Also, we reached for Ross @ #8 ... If we really wanted Ross and Lowry I am sure Houston would've done a Drummond+Scrub we packaged (can't remember his name atm) for Lowry+Ross as Houston could have picked for us a bit later.

It was a common knowledge at the time that Lowry and McHale did not see eye to eye so it was obvious they wanted to move him and they found the sucker to overpay.

LOL, yep, Houston wanted to move him, and BC gives up a high 1st rounder for a guy BACKING UP Jose Calderon. Oh dear...
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#360 » by Pchu » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:14 pm

mid-post wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:Why its not true? Guy was slacking, thats the only explanation I could think of.

This pretty much says it all though, doesn't it.

I already broke it down in this thread and other places around Realgm. People can't fathom why he didn't just physically dominate and automatically assume it must be because he didn't have "passion" or a good "motor" and all this other nonsense. But when you actually watched him game in and game out, it was obvious his problem was just being comfortable learning offense on the low block while trying to mesh with the team. It didn't stop him from being dominant defensively. He had his moments good and bad, but he wasn't going around dogging it like you're suggesting at all. Never mind the fact that he has no back to the basket game.

The college game is completely different as well, lots of teams were basically just packing the paint, daring UConn to shoot from three and constantly boxing Drummond out with two or three guys (like this)

Image

On top of that, since there's no defensive three seconds and since the spacing in the college game is totally different, his impact was totally nullified in the one way he impacts the game offensively. Right now he's a glorified garbage man, and if it weren't for the spacing the NBA provides, he'd probably still be struggling. But his effort this year is no different than it was last year.


You have less data and evidence with a freshman than a soph. With Drummond, you can only really go by his play in UConn. No one ever denied his potential but everyone admit he has a tonne of risk. There are 8 teams that passed on him, so..

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